Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[five_seven5-7 56]

Theres no doubt that its possible to do point shooting (stand up) but its only use in a surprise attack. The amount of wasted ammo its to high. 

 

YT doesn't serve as an example, those guys are relaxed and don't are fatigued, fatigue those guys and see if they can handle  an 11 kg MG in stand up optic view during a long time period. The natural sway due to arms fatigue in increase almost exponential. MGunners are use to create suppression on the enemy, while rest of the squad try to flank, the only way to aim effectively  is use active and passive bipod.

[andersson 285]

Let us aim and shoot MGs standing, but just like in RL let there be a lot of sway so it's only good for spray and pray.

[roberthammer 582]

Let us aim and shoot MGs standing, but just like in RL let there be a lot of sway so it's only good for spray and pray.

Exactly , a lot of sway and recoil too - even soldiers are trained to always support the MG when firing 

[CaptainObvious 95]

Let us aim and shoot MGs standing, but just like in RL let there be a lot of sway so it's only good for spray and pray.

 

This, also lots and lots of recoil  :coop:

[R3vo 2652]

Posted Yesterday, 21:33 #1769

Just played some Arma today and I noticed again how exaggerated this new weapon sway is. Sniper stance is pretty much useless since the sway is the same as in kneeled position. In addition, the difference between the sway when lightly exausted and heavily exausted feels the same. You sprint literally 1 meter and it's like you ran a marathon. Definitely needs some work, otherwise people will disable the new system because of that.

 

Increasing sway as an effect of heavy breathing good and all, but currently it feels like my soldier's arms are made of pudding.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5xIcUH8f7w&feature=youtu.be&t=5s

 

STRAW POLL

 

How do you feel about the current weapon sway?

 

 

Just gonna leave that here, maybe it will get enough votes to get an proper result.

Reposting that here, because it posted it in the fatigue thread

[gatordev 214]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a5GblouASE&feature=youtu.be

 

This is a quick test I did with the Navid and DMS. From standing unsupported at 500m with full stamina I hit 4 out of 6 shots and the first was a headshot. I'll admit I've never played with a GPMG for any meaningful amount of time in the real world but I'm not convinced that what happens in that video is something that could reliably be done with a real weapon and it doesn't make much sense balance wise either.

 

I think the easiest way to fix this is to just make it so that you can't sight in MGs while moving and you can't sight them in from standing unsupported. You can still hipfire in combat pace for close range and for longer ranges you can either crouch, go prone or deploy it on an object. I don't think that balance issues like this should be left to modders as there's got to be some kind of consistent basic gameplay and I don't think how it is now is how it should be.

 

First of all, you're changing your initial position again.  You didn't say "GPMG" initially.  You said "MG."  Words matter.  I completely agree that your video is not the best simulation of trying to shoot a 500m target with a heavy machine gun.  But what you're advocating is nerfing the simulation of the game (being able to look down sights of a MG) instead of addressing the actual issue, which is sway/inertia/stamina/whatever-we're-calling-it-now is too low for trying to hold up something that large.

 

My concern is that when you say "eliminate sights on machine guns when standing," what constitutes a MG?  Does a SAW count?  What about a Stoner LMG (which was most definitely used standing in Viet Nam)?  What about an IAR?  Technically that's filling the MG role now.  Or what if someone is playing a Star Wars mod and one of their weapons inherits a MG class?

 

Even more concerning is "who" is going to make the determination?  There's already a rift in the stamina thread between two player camps (albeit stamina has been greatly improved since it's introduction a few weeks ago).  All I'm advocating is let the player/mission maker/server make the choice, and don't make it a universal change within the game.

 

Let us aim and shoot MGs standing, but just like in RL let there be a lot of sway so it's only good for spray and pray.

 

Exactly.  There's other ways to "fix" the situation shown in the Lobster's video.

[five_seven5-7 56]

The only complain is the great amount of sway with the bipod ative, the rest is fine so far IMO. Inertia config is another story...

[chortles 263]

My concern is that when you say "eliminate sights on machine guns when standing," what constitutes a MG?  Does a SAW count?  What about a Stoner LMG (which was most definitely used standing in Viet Nam)?  What about an IAR?  Technically that's filling the MG role now.  Or what if someone is playing a Star Wars mod and one of their weapons inherits a MG class?

The IAR example is particularly important since at last check several rifle families had LSW/SAW variants or derivatives or the rifles themselves can accept higher-capacity magazines (i.e. meant for said variants)... the MX SW very much being a case in point, complete with being an assault rifle as far as config inheritances go.

[ruPal 143]

Will it be possible to change sway with script commands?  Something like "setUnitRecoilCoefficientl"?

[Lobotomy Lobster 6]

First of all, you're changing your initial position again.  You didn't say "GPMG" initially.  You said "MG."  Words matter.  I completely agree that your video is not the best simulation of trying to shoot a 500m target with a heavy machine gun.  But what you're advocating is nerfing the simulation of the game (being able to look down sights of a MG) instead of addressing the actual issue, which is sway/inertia/stamina/whatever-we're-calling-it-now is too low for trying to hold up something that large.

 

I've said the same thing in 3 seperate posts, not sure how much clearer I can be. I'll admit its not the most realistic or detailed way of fixing the problem but its worked well for games like Red Orchestra 2 and the end result is people use these weapons in a support role to put down suppressive fire rather than as CQB bullet hoses with scopes on for sniping. Currently all primary weapons just act like assault rifles with different magazine sizes and sway which isn't very nuanced.

 

I agree that changing recoil and sway would get us 90% of the way there but there needs to be some other kind of limitation to make different weapon types handle in a noticeably different way that forces players to make a choice between weapon types instead of just going for whatever has the biggest magazine. I'm open to any ideas as long as we don't go back to the bad old days of A2's decelerated turning and getting stuck on building geometry as I really don't think that the inertia system has made any real changes here.

[Greenfist 1863]

Will it be possible to change sway with script commands?  Something like "setUnitRecoilCoefficientl"?

25 minutes later:

Added: Script commands: getAnimAimPrecision, getCustomAimCoef, isAimPrecisionEnabled, enableAimPrecision, setCustomAimCoef

You should do that more often. :lol:

[tortuosit 485]

I think people have to be reminded about "hold breath". Without it, sway is pretty strong (from the gaming perspective). No RL experience.

 

I'm expecting floods of tears soon. a) weapon sway b) -filepatching

[St. Jimmy 272]

I got to say there's something weird about the sway. It's currently overdone at least. I sometimes get less sway on crouched than on prone.

[Kryptongame 14]

I got to say there's something weird about the sway. It's currently overdone at least. I sometimes get less sway on crouched than on prone.

Agreed. Same for me man

[fabio_chavez 103]

oops wrong forum lol

[St. Jimmy 272]

Hold breath: The following will be only about the hold breath sway, audio and control. I don't address how the overall sway is.

 

I remember you mentioning that you wanted the audio to be in sync with the sway? Well with hold breath there's nothing in the breathing that tells you about the sway when you're out of breath, the audio is random compared to the actual out of breath sway. I can't make the breathing noise and weapon sway relate at all with each other in holding/out of breath situations. I see they're pretty OK synced when you're not holding breath and allow the weapon sway freely.

 

I recommend you to do this to realize how the audio is off with the hold breath:

- Close your eyes

- Hold the breath control button all the time

- Listen the sound

- Imagine how your weapon would sway with those breathing sounds. Very easy if you ever have even just hold a gun

- Now open your eyes and compare the audio with your imagination and what really happens in the game

- Observer that there's no relation at all with anything

- Repeat this stuff at different stages of fatigue

 

I also believe the sway is too exaggerated. I could understand if there's maybe one or two bigger faster up and down sways when out of breath but currently it continues in that fast pattern for a very long time. It should be one or two sequences and then start to tone down. Actually I liked how it was before so you hold breath, the sway is pretty much gone, get out of breath, the weapon sways two times up and down and then you can hold breath again. Just test it yourself in real life and notice how natural it actually is. Of course the more fatigued you're the shorter the hold breath should be and maybe there should be one or two more up/down sways and in/out breaths. Then those sways should be synced with breathing audio.

 

Currently it's not authentic at all and feels just very random and exaggerated.

[Kryptongame 14]

I agree above^^. Sway is actually destroying the ability to aim, to the point where you cannot push any fortress or compound with 7.62, as they will pop up with zero sway, destroy you as you can't NO MATTER WHAT, stabilize your aim in time. It just isn't fun! I've enjoyed realism mods even, and they are fun...but this is overboard, especially in Vanilla. And especially since it isn't realistic at all.

[razor6014 35]

i dont get it , this is the first time in a long time sway actualy feels realistic to me , im not kidding , the sway is very very similar to what i see every day when i shoot for real

... i mean the motion of the sway

[R3vo 2652]

Played our first coop tonight, and the first thing people noticed after the 1.54 update was the new weapon sway, which makes aiming incredible frustrating.

 

In addition, the sway with binoc, rangefinder etc is extrem. This was fixed when the fatigue system was introduced but now it's back.

[razor6014 35]

This is funny to me , to me the aiming feels like an old friend , 

can anyone who  has RL expirience chip in , im basicly shooting on autopilot and everything goes in (10+ years of shooting)

[St. Jimmy 272]

I'd say only problem with the sway is the hold breath what I explained previously. If what I say is done then I don't see any problem with the sway. The out of breath sway is just too much for too long time. It can be made so it takes as long time to be able to hold breath again but the quick up and down sways should only happen for couple in/out breaths and then it starts to calm. Now it's freaking 10 up and downs if you're fatigued that are fast when it should be like 5 max IMO. I don't care if we can't hold breath after those 5 but at least make it calm a lot after the 3-4 sways. When you've still like 75% stamina left it's still 6 up and down sways. So bring those out of breath number of sways down at least by 50% then it should be better.

[agent()()9 18]

Agreed with St. Jimmy.  I tried today's dev branch, and sway is still too high.  The main problem is that after my stamina bar is fully recovered, it takes 15-20 seconds for my sway to go down.

 

Full stamina bar should = the most steady aim for a given stance.

[Beagle 684]

I think people have to be reminded about "hold breath". Without it, sway is pretty strong (from the gaming perspective). No RL experience.

 

I'm expecting floods of tears soon. a) weapon sway B) -filepatching

Only a beginner would do stuff like "hold breath". The "hold breath" thing is only there for a single aimed long distance shot. In rapid sucession you would simple shoot at exhaling and, of course, continue breathing.

The full fault of "stamina" now comes to bear when you try to manually guide a guided missile at its full potential range. Again and Again, sway is atificial and contrary to RL because in RL a heavier weapon is less prone to "sway" uncontrolled around. For that reason O even put a addition 100gramms barrel weight to one of my sporting guns and a 180 gramm counterweight to my Sporting rifle. The main point about a rifle managebility is not the weight, but the distribution of said weight. The overall weapon weight is just a question of carry capacity and comfort not of handling. People should really stop beliving what games are trying to tech you and demend the Devs to alling the game with RL experience. Currently the RL experience and game experience are diverting appart at a constant rate.

 

If this continues I the only option is to abandon the game because script and mod solutions are no option for mainly public realism concentrated servers that already struggle enough since BIS abandoned the idea of vanilla cti and warfare.

[Variable 322]

I have a feeling that sway increase was introduced as a "compensation" for the horrendous new stamina system, as in - we made the game "easier" here, let's make it harder "there", and the result is even worse. Sway was always badly implemented, mainly because it feels as if the weapon fights against you when you try to correct, making the main activity of this shooter game, frustrating instead of gratifying.

 

It became a nightmare to lase targets now with an LD. If the target is far away, sway makes it next to impossible to keep it painted for a GBU strike.

[twisted 127]

i find that the sway from jogging is out of kilter with what the stamina bar is telling me.

 

sway level could build up a little slower to reflect expect level of tiredness.

 

BUT must admit the current implmentation feels ok (as of latest dev branch 15 Dec 2015)  - i can jog for quite a while without my sway going all over the place.

 

if we're going to have that stamina bar then sway needs to tie closer to this visual meter. in which case jogging should make the stamina bar go very slowly down to convey how it is effecting sway.

 

but the sway from sprinting should be expected, however it should really be tied to a breathing cycle so its easiert to understand and seems less random/arbitrary. ie the though should be - im fatigued and breathing hard and as a consequence my weapon is all over the place.

 

i do howver like that going prone or supporting your wepaon against an object makes the sway imporve far faster and more drastically. i really do as it lets me take control and has tactical value.

 

BUT i find that being insured has not effect on sway. that is an over sight. it should effect sway based on damage amount and damage location. AND being hit should DYNAMICALLY affect AI accuracy until they are healed.