Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[blackpixxel 53]

I am skeptical as to whether the acceleration idea would work well. Basically every time you start to move the mouse, you would have acceleration and thus inertia effects - so you could be sitting crouched, not touching the mouse at all, and then slowly start to track a target moving across your LOS yet the moment you touch that mouse, no matter how slow, you are going to have high acceleration and thus inertia effects. That kind of defeats the intended purpose of being able to track targets with aligned sights.

It would work. Acceleration is a proportional thing too. So the inertia effect would be proportional to the acceleration, not only full or no inertia. In addition to that some little smoothing algorithms could improve it.

I really think that the acceleration method without the anoying 'overshoot'-thing after you stop turning would be a much better solution.

-You would be able to aim at a running target with ironsights (which is impossible now since you cannot align your sights while turning.

-It would look much more dynamic and authentic, since it would only affect you when you start or stop from a rotation or change the rotation speed significantly.

[machineabuse 11]

BlackPixxel: Agreed. Acceleration would work. The thing that the sway on stop behavior doesn't simulate well is the muscles in your body flexing to drive the gun back onto POA. When you throw speed into it it's an energetic, elastic motion where this one meanders like a geriatric who forgot what he was supposed to be doing ;)

[Strick 1]

I have read that the values of mass, inertia and dexterity set within a weapon's config are what determines its handling. If this is true than this is opposite of arcade games in which a player gets lesser values as he levels up in game and gains perks to apply to weapons. I can see where this weapon sway and inertia will lead and that is if you don't carry much, don't move much and don't breath much, end result will be the steadiest aim on target. These are handicaps that my team and I are struggling with in Arma3 missions. Mainly because of the tempo our team has set forth for our in game training and missions. Specifically urban operations where corners,walls and openings from buildings play a big factor regarding who gets the bullet and who gets miss. It would be a benefit for myself and any other players of Arma3 if we could gain a marksmanship feature to counter weapon sway and inertia using techniques rather than the mechanics of more time + less energy + no movement = better aim. For now what feedback would you all have regarding adding something to counter the sway and inertia? I understand if you want to do less in game and the questions are not intended for everyone. But for those of you who want more out of a game could you use a technique such as traversing a lowered weapon prior to aiming to gain 5 seconds of no sway... If you turn while aiming of course its gonna be a bad shot, thats how it is now. But if you lower the weapon prior to turning when you snap up to the high ready position inertia and sway will be less minimal. One of our members mentioned c-clamping but thats not a reality in game because we all hold the weapon the same way. Stance adjustment is a similar principle I'm going with just incorporating it toward the weapons to construct better inertia and sway dynamics. Thanks again for the prior reads. Good stuff.

[machineabuse 11]

Speaking on behalf of my group we have been a big fan of VTS weapon resting as it brings to the game the advantage of positioning to the shooting game. A lot of what counts for accuracy mechanics in ArmA 3 currently centers around waiting for your avatar to recover from fatigue, movement, hold breath etc, etc. It's a lot of passive and not a lot of active.

Being able to prone out and use the ground or a static object in the world to shoot from adds a mechanic our players can actively use to effectively send rounds downrange after having to sprint to position (as you do when bounding.). We also encourage out players to do things like spread equipment out amongst the fireteam like MG ammo/rockets and what have you. Personally I also organize my gear into 1st/2nd and 3rd line inside my uniform, vest and backpack in case I need to cache my pack to regain stamina.

In ACE2 our group used to be in the habit of dropping the pack and use it as a sandbag rest in conjunction with deploying the weapon if we were setting up an ambush at distance. As always the 4 resources of a firefight we try to keep going for us are Time, Distance, Cover and Volume of fire.

I'm sure there is some game changing stuff planned for the Marksmanship DLC but I hope they do come up with a weapon resting mechanic that is at least as accessible as VTS is.

[giorgygr 61]

Bohemia plz make the Sway system just like "Flight model".

Player configurable via gameplay options (on/off) and mission force-able.

As it is now (couple it with low FPS) is the reason i stopped playing A3 MP after lots of years.

[roshnak 41]

Do you guys still find it too difficult to shoot while using hold breath?

I'm sure there is some game changing stuff planned for the Marksmanship DLC but I hope they do come up with a weapon resting mechanic that is at least as accessible as VTS is.

I think we're all hoping for a good weapon resting system.

Edit:

Bohemia plz make the Sway system just like "Flight model".

Player configurable via gameplay options (on/off) and mission force-able.

As it is now (couple it with low FPS) is the reason i stopped playing A3 MP after lots of years.

It's crazy how bad this idea is. Sway and inertia aren't in the game just in case some players want a deeper combat system that doesn't affect other players, they're intentional game mechanics designed to promote specific types of gameplay. Allowing them to be user configurable would defeat the entire purpose, as well as making it significantly more difficult for players to learn core gameplay mechanics.

Edited November 11, 2014 by roshnak

[giorgygr 61]

It's crazy how bad this idea is. Sway and inertia aren't in the game just in case some players want a deeper combat system that doesn't affect other players, they're intentional game mechanics designed to promote specific types of gameplay. Allowing them to be user configurable would defeat the entire purpose, as well as making it significantly more difficult for players to learn core gameplay mechanics.

It is as crazy as the option for player to enable or disable the *new Pro flight model

Personally i find the sway mechanics a ridiculous mini game (sorry it's MY opinion..and not only mine).

A mission maker will be still able to "force" it in his mission.

It's the reason i DON'T play anymore MP games and believe me i m sure i have more than 10000 hours in MP in ArmA series.

Make it optional for player -but also force-able by mission maker is just "Fair solution"

[enex 11]

Are mechanics ridiculous if you and others agree? No.

Is making it optional fair? No, because no one would have that on since you would be at dissadvantege.

The truth is everyone have different definition of fun.What might be fun to me (playing without fatigue)

might be authenthic and challenging to something else.So you can't look at this from your perspective

but from game itself - does it suits the game type and add depth to it?

But you bought great game - it is entirely up to servers owners to decide about fatigue system.And

You might happen to notice lots of game modes/mods have it off, for example battle royal if you are into it.

[giorgygr 61]

Maybe my English are not very good-but my point isn't hard as rocket science i believe.

What i ask it should be optional like "Rotor lib"

Mission makers can enforce the system if they want -JUST LIKE "Rotor lib".

This is just unfair for those who hate don't like the system.

(i have a voice too don't u agree?)

Edited November 11, 2014 by GiorgyGR

[enex 11]

Why don't you rather then write remarks "you don't understand me" (my point isn't hard as rocket science )

prove my point wrong with reasoning?(example would be I don't like this because...)

You haven't address disadvantage of players with turned on fatigue vs the ones that have

it off if such system would be in place.

Saying it's unfair it's short minded - example: 3rd person is unfair in my opinion shall we remove it for being unfair?

Of course not.(no pun minded)

[giorgygr 61]

Fatigue and weapon sway are 2 different matters.

To be honest..i also believe "Fatigue system" also should have been players preferance (AND mission force-able)

Even in ARMA2 running ACE you had options to turn it on/off

"Fatigue system" doesn't troubles me (i played tooo much ACE in past) because i find it promotes teamwork (i.e. need for transportation/"smart" loadout)

"Weapon sway system" serves no purpose.Target acquisition mostly done with Human's 3D perspective+muscle memory.

This is a horrible mini game for masochists-and FFS not even VBS has something similar

(only a more exaggerated feeling of weapon up-down due to breath when u r tired or wounded :D )

*edited*

More close to VBS behavior is the addon below in my sig.

Edited November 11, 2014 by GiorgyGR

[mjolnir66 48]

If you are having too much trouble shooting someone with the sway and inertia, there are 3 stages you should go through:

First, use a lighter kit. Less kit=Less fatigue=Less sway.

Second, use a lighter, more mobile weapon along with a holo sight, giving you less inertia problems.

Third, learn to use the hold breath button. If you can't hit anything with the ludicrously over the top effect and time it has, then taking away inertia and sway will do you no good.

Shooting stuff in real life is hard. I know this first hand because this game is basically the best simulation of my job out there. I can give you a first hand account of how a full section missed 3 insurgents from 40m for a variety of factors. Try taking a 3 to 5kg rifle, 15kg body armour, 10 to 20kg in your daysack, and then shoot something after walking 3 to 5 km and tell me its easy.

[roshnak 41]

Third, learn to use the hold breath button. If you can't hit anything with the ludicrously over the top effect and time it has, then taking away inertia and sway will do you no good.

So much this. Seriously, hold breath almost completely eliminates sway, and you can pretty much be doing it 80% of the time.

[giorgygr 61]

Ok guys.

Can you explain me then why Rotor-lib isn't enforced by the game?

My answer would be "Because some people may not like it that way and want a more *arcade-ish experience"

With the Fatigue and Sway system it should have been the same.

Even the official military simulator doesn't have such system-why should I be forced to accept it?

You can name me whatever u want *even incompetent to handle it..but it's still should be MY right to choose.

After all..ARMA3 is advertized as "Sandbox"

[roshnak 41]

Rotorlib isn't enforced by the game because Arma 3 is not a flight sim and BIS probably doesn't want to basically require that people buy $200 - $600 worth of equipment in order to fly helicopters.

You also keep bringing up VBS. You understand the VBS is not a game, right? It's a tool. What utility would come from requiring military personnel to become skilled with a mouse and keyboard in order to shoot accurately in VBS? How would that add value to their training?

Edited November 11, 2014 by roshnak

[giorgygr 61]

Rotorlib isn't enforced by the game because Arma 3 is not a flight sim and BIS probably doesn't want to basically require that people buy $200 - $600 worth of equipment in order to fly helicopters.

ARMA3 isn't also a Light Infantry military sim.

It is a sandbox where u can play whatever fak u want.

From RPG/Dinosaurs/Space/.../.../to Hard core simulation.

That's how ARMA is advertized (i m forced to repeat myself multiple times..)

You also keep bringing up VBS. You understand the VBS is not a game, right? It's a tool. What utility would come from requiring military personnel to become skilled with a mouse and keyboard in order to shoot accurately in VBS? How would that add value to their training?

I really also DON'T want to be forced to that kind of skill

Bottom line (for 100th time...) choice should be mine-without the need to add 1 word of code to achieve it

Edited November 11, 2014 by GiorgyGR

[mjolnir66 48]

ARMA3 isn't also a Light Infantry military sim.

It is a sandbox where u can play whatever fak u want.

From RPG/Dinosaurs/Space/.../.../to Hard core simulation.

That's how ARMA is advertized (i m forced to repeat myself multiple times..)

Its primarily been, and its main focus has always been, light infantry simulation, the rest has always been a case of you can have this, but its not as in depth as the light infantry simulation.

[miketim 20]

Hmm I must be reading the wrong thread,

Could sworn that this was

Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

:j:

Anyways, though I do agree that they might as well throw in an optional "off" feature in gameplay options or something, if you are having trouble with the current system, do as roshnak said and make use of holding right click, it makes an immense difference.

But I think we can all agree that the weapon sway system is not an accurate representation of real life, but what would you then suggest to take its place?

And on this topic of people throwing VBS around, remember that VBS is not to teach someone how to handle a firearm or anything AT ALL like that, none of their aiming system shit matters at all in this reguard, VBS is for teaching people the tactics and procedure and etc... how to respond in combat.

Honestly, there is no reason to bring VBS into this as "proof", it does not simulate all aspects properly just because its a "simulator" which people can spazz about for years on the forums.

Please don't respond to this just to continue anything at all related to arguing whether arma is a sim , I dont want this to become some people shouting about whether arma is a simulator or not.

PS: It does have some really nice looking stamina effects though, which BI could take a cue from.

Edited November 11, 2014 by MikeTim

[twisted 127]

If you are having too much trouble shooting someone with the sway and inertia, there are 3 stages you should go through:

First, use a lighter kit. Less kit=Less fatigue=Less sway.

Second, use a lighter, more mobile weapon along with a holo sight, giving you less inertia problems.

Third, learn to use the hold breath button. If you can't hit anything with the ludicrously over the top effect and time it has, then taking away inertia and sway will do you no good.

Shooting stuff in real life is hard. I know this first hand because this game is basically the best simulation of my job out there. I can give you a first hand account of how a full section missed 3 insurgents from 40m for a variety of factors. Try taking a 3 to 5kg rifle, 15kg body armour, 10 to 20kg in your daysack, and then shoot something after walking 3 to 5 km and tell me its easy.

Exactly this. Although I still find it much easier to make long shots in arma3. Sway and inertia are essential but the implementation could, as most things, be improved. But please not dumbed down due to the repeated posts of four users. Valid comments should have been noticed by now.

[roshnak 41]

ARMA3 isn't also a Light Infantry military sim.

It is a sandbox where u can play whatever fak u want.

From RPG/Dinosaurs/Space/.../.../to Hard core simulation.

That's how ARMA is advertized (i m forced to repeat myself multiple times..)

You are taking the whole "sandbox" thing way too far. Arma has sandbox elements. It is by no means, and has never been, a true sandbox game.

Although, in point of fact, there are very few sandbox games that even let players modify core game mechanics in the way that you are suggesting.

I really also DON'T want to be forced to that kind of skill

Too bad? Mod it out and play singleplayer only, then. As long as this game has a competitive multiplayer element, it's going to require skill. And as long as PC games are controlled using a mouse and keyboard, then you will have to have skill with a mouse and keyboard to be good at them. What you are saying here is literally, "I don't want to be forced to get good at PC games."

[giorgygr 61]

You know something man?

I have a problem and i have posted about it-letting others understand "How much i don't like" the so-called-feature

Ok..you defended your position regarding your beloved "sway"..that's also ok.

You can have any opinions you want..as long they are not violate MY faking right to express MY opinion.

If you don't have anything constructive to say-helping with the problem "I" have..pzl refrain from the subject A.S.A.P.

..

I m not going to comment more on this (at least for now) until further options/opinions are discussed.

Edited November 12, 2014 by GiorgyGR

[yxman 90]

Bohemia plz make the Sway system just like "Flight model".

Player configurable via gameplay options (on/off) and mission force-able.

.

this.

[machineabuse 11]

I think the thing in this thread that needs to stop is assuming that the people in this discussion need to be taught to play the game. The fact that we are having a discussion in the Dev Branch forum suggests to a fairly high degree that people joining the discussion are likely to know the topic they are discussing. A lot of this "instruction" attributes frustration and emotional hyperbole to ineptitude and all it results is a lot of talking-down-to which is disrespectful and derailing. To make matters worse is that it triggers confirmation bias of those who are already happy with the status quo and in the end the core of the discontent becomes misrepresented.

At the end of the day, the BI Devs have the final say. The discussion here should give them a picture of what people are unhappy with in order to make improvements.

[roshnak 41]

I think the thing in this thread that needs to stop is assuming that the people in this discussion need to be taught to play the game. The fact that we are having a discussion in the Dev Branch forum suggests to a fairly high degree that people joining the discussion are likely to know the topic they are discussing. A lot of this "instruction" attributes frustration and emotional hyperbole to ineptitude and all it results is a lot of talking-down-to which is disrespectful and derailing. To make matters worse is that it triggers confirmation bias of those who are already happy with the status quo and in the end the core of the discontent becomes misrepresented.

At the end of the day, the BI Devs have the final say. The discussion here should give them a picture of what people are unhappy with in order to make improvements.

I could just as easily suggest that the thing this thread needs to stop doing is straight up making stuff up that isn't true. This thread is for feedback for a branch of the game that is undergoing frequent changes and often unstable. Emotional hyperbole could easily be mistaken for things that are actually occuring in the game, and no one (not even the developers) have any way of knowing that it's not. I'm not saying that this kind of feedback can't be valuable (although it's far from the best way to present it), but I am saying that there is no reason for any poster in this thread to ever assume that someone is just exaggerating for effect.

Edited November 12, 2014 by roshnak

[machineabuse 11]

People exaggerate in regular speech; It's just natural human emote. A designer by training knows how to separate the wheat from the chaff from feedback. That's what we get paid for ;)