Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[meatshield 13]

i like it, i think it should be reduced a little bit though, not loads, just a little.

Or, thinking about it, having the movement the same, but have it re-align a little quicker :)

Overall though, nice feature :)

[Bouben 3]

So I tested this new feature and it looks very good so far. However, shouldn't the sight misalignment occur while shooting too? Right now it occurs only when moving a weapon. Also, it would be very good if a slight (I mean really slight) sight misalignment occurred even when standing still and not prone because both hands are shaking and moving separately IRL - more fatigue should mean more sight misalignment even when a player is static. Weapon sway alone does not cut it.

Also, I am not sure if I feel enough difference between lighter and heavier weapons but I haven't really tested it carefully yet.

Anyway, even in the current state it really improves the feeling of handling a weapon in the game. Great job BIS.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Bouben
some additional details

[blackpixxel 53]

Also, I am not sure if I feel enough difference between lighter and heavier weapons...

I have to agree on that! I would really like to see the inertia effect increased for heavier weapons, like the Zafir or the MK200. They should get closer to the sniper rifles than to the smaller ones.

And in the same run the inertia effect should be lowered for the smg, because I think they are much easier to control.

[msy 22]

Confirmed. I don't know if it was like this yesterday, but just now I tested it with a "fired" EH that slows down time after I fire a shot.

The bullets don't seem to be coming out of the barrel but are rather flying straight through the player's sight line to the front iron sight, as msy says.

EDIT: hmm, after another more precise test with even slower motion the problem doesn't seem as bad. Bullets do fly off in the expected direction (where the barrel is pointing), but possibly not as far as expected. Maybe it's just a perspective issue.

can you make a test like that?

1. set a chest bitmap

2. set time slower

3. quickly move the front sight to the bitmap and shoot

4. look at the point of impact.

[singleton 22]

Yeah this is really not what I am experiencing. It seems super exaggerated and there are weird stutters in your movement.

We've sort of already had this discussion in the weapon sway thread. Pages upon pages of discussion, actually.

The purpose of the changes to mechanics like weapon sway and inertia is not provide a perfectly accurate representation of what it looks or even feels like when you use a firearm. This is not possible, and the recent OPREP basically confirms that this is not Bohemia's goal. The purpose of these changes is to provide a rough analogue that creates more realistic gameplay situations.

Simply put: You should not be asking yourself if this is what it would look like if you were looking through the eyes of a trained soldier in the real world. You should be asking yourself if these mechanics make you make the same considerations and decisions that a soldier would.

So the question I have for you is: Do you think these changes make you behave more realistically in the game?

How can you possibly make the same considerations and decisions as a soldier would, without having a system to give you the same capabilities as a soldier yourself? Being a trained soldier myself, I can say that is a pretty lousy comparison. It's like saying, would I make the same decisions as a NASCAR driver in the Indy 500 with the driving mechanics of Need for Speed. So if that is the question at hand, then absolutely not. If I cannot annex, acquire and reaquire targets with reliable accuracy without feeling like I'm 'fighting' my arms which are not connected to my body, then no. Absolutely no. I would not make the same considerations.

Pretty much. Not to mention that engaging targets at 5 metres quickly like the video shows isn't actually that hard to do in game. Five metres is really close.

And JollyResQ, that guy was shooting targets blinded... just because he can do it in real life, doesn't mean every arma player should be able to hit targets blind does it? The sway distortion after quick movements is good, and if you are as good a player as that guy is a shooter, you will be able to easy fight through it and achieve the same accuracy and speed he does.

You are completely missing my point, which was stated in the beginning. This is not about speed, or shooting blindfolded. It is to show somebody who may not have time behind a weapon whose only knowledge of firearms may be from globalsecurity, field manuals and ArmA3 that a weapon is apart of you body. Once again notice that he orients his SHOULDERS to the target, not his arms, which negates most of the absurd 'weapon sway' which is present in this build. The point is that stop & go motions do not cause an overdone 'run-over' phenomena with a weapon. Anybody who has fired more that 10 rounds down a range at more than one target can attest to this.

Edited August 23, 2014 by JollyResQ

[roshnak 41]

It's like saying, would I make the same decisions as a NASCAR driver in the Indy 500 with the driving mechanics of Need for Speed.

It's really nothing like this because a car is predictable mechanical device that we interface with in a way that is easily replicated and widely available in the marketplace (steering wheel and pedals). The human body is not a mechanical device, it has untold intricacies and variations, and we interface with it in significantly more complex and less understood ways. Until perfect virtual reality is a thing, replicating that will not be even remotely possible.

You are completely missing my point, which was stated in the beginning. This is not about speed, or shooting blindfolded. It is to show somebody who may not have time behind a weapon whose only knowledge of firearms may be from globalsecurity, field manuals and ArmA3 that a weapon is apart of you body. Once again notice that he orients his SHOULDERS to the target, not his arms, which negates most of the absurd 'weapon sway' which is present in this build. The point is that stop & go motions do not cause an overdone 'run-over' phenomena with a weapon. Anybody who has fired more that 10 rounds down a range at more than one target can attest to this.

Actually, I think you are kind of missing the point. The point is that things the guy did your video is still possible in Arma 3, now it just takes a more realistic amount of skill to do it. It requires a different set of skills than you are used to using in real life because it is not possible at this point in time to simulate the exact skillset (or even close to it) that is used in real life marksmanship in a video game. The principles of aiming with a gun are not the same as aiming with a mouse and keyboard. Literally everything about it is different.

You cannot make aiming with a mouse and keyboard difficult in the same way that aiming a gun is. Therefore, we must make it difficult in a different way. The way that BIS chose is a somewhat exaggerated form of weapon sway and a representation of inertia through sight mis-alignment and recovery time.

I really encourage you to at least skim the last few pages of the weapon sway thread that I linked earlier, as this is the exact discussion we had in it.

Here is a video of me killing 4 enemies in a tower from 1km away in 40 seconds with the more amplified version of the sway that is on the main branch. Can you do that in real life?

[NoPOW 59]

(...)

Issue added to Feedback Tracker.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=20440

[Brisse 78]

Great! You have my up-vote...

[alsanjuro 20]

Both weapon sway and inetria needs to be toned down. I have played around with nearly all the weapons in dev branch to see the effects of inertia on weapons. At the moment you have no control over countering of the inertia sway your weapon just moves side to side and holding down your breath doesnt do much still. When you hold your breath the gun still moves in direction (if moved weapon right it keeps going right). In real life you are able to counter your gun from swaying all over the place. When you try to counter the inertia then the gun goes and sways in the opposite direction. I mean even a slight movement your weapon is off swaying.

[chortles 263]

A question: just how quickly are you moving the weapon? According to the OPREP "speed of cursor motion" affects sway distortion at the very least.

[Greenfist 1863]

Is your excessive inertia something like Pundra demonstrated here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?182228-Weapon-Inertia-amp-Sway-Feedback-(dev-branch)&p=2759399&viewfull=1#post2759399

That's definitely a bug. Probably has something to do with your mouse speed and acceleration settings?

[alsanjuro 20]

No my mouse setting are ok its when you move your weapon be it left or right there is no way to counter the inertia like you would in real life using your muscles to stop the weapon from continuing going in that direction instead when you try to stop the gun it starts to sway left and right quiet a lot and then you try to aim and all I get is a wobble effect where my weapon moves right and left. When I try to counter its movement there is no way to stabilize weapon to shoot accurately its keeps going left or right as if my soldier is holding something made of rubber where it just bounces from side to side and have to wait for weapon to stop moving by then i get shot. Since these updates i am spraying more then ever and when i fire my weapon it goes everywhere cause i have no control of my weapon. It is starting to get on my nerves.

[maddogx 13]

No my mouse setting are ok its when you move your weapon be it left or right there is no way to counter the inertia like you would in real life using your muscles to stop the weapon from continuing going in that direction instead when you try to stop the gun it starts to sway left and right quiet a lot and then you try to aim and all I get is a wobble effect where my weapon moves right and left. When I try to counter its movement there is no way to stabilize weapon to shoot accurately its keeps going left or right as if my soldier is holding something made of rubber where it just bounces from side to side and have to wait for weapon to stop moving by then i get shot. Since these updates i am spraying more then ever and when i fire my weapon it goes everywhere cause i have no control of my weapon. It is starting to get on my nerves.

Can you make a video of this bouncing from side to side? From what I can tell even the heaviest weapons take less than a second to straighten out after a fast turn.

Btw. are you using an aiming deadzone value greater than zero?

[Greenfist 1863]

That doesn't sound like anything I'm seeing in my game. My gun stops in a second after I stop turning.

And you're not supposed to be able to counter the inertia effect. You just have to turn slower or stop to keep it under control.

A video would be great?

Edited August 25, 2014 by Greenfist

[alsanjuro 20]

My aiming deadzone is at zero.

Here is a quick video

[Bouben 3]

My aiming deadzone is at zero.

Here is a quick video

I can't see any problem in the video. Seems very similar to my inertia experience.

So you basically say it needs tweaking? Please, explain what would make it ok in your opinion, thanks.

[gibonez 18]

Hmmm after messing around with it a little bit I have to say the inertia effect is a bit too tame. I almost feel like the heavier weapons are far too nimble.

[Bouben 3]

Hmmm after messing around with it a little bit I have to say the inertia effect is a bit too tame. I almost feel like the heavier weapons are far too nimble.

It is better to test the inertia effects during a real gameplay in combat. I was able to feel more differences between individual weapons that way.

[gibonez 18]

It is better to test the inertia effects during a real gameplay in combat. I was able to feel more differences between individual weapons that way.

Ok I will give it a shot.

[twisted 127]

Hmmm after messing around with it a little bit I have to say the inertia effect is a bit too tame. I almost feel like the heavier weapons are far too nimble.

agree on this. seems to little especially for weapons that should be a lot more cumbersome/heavy/ just plain big.

[alsanjuro 20]

Weapon bounces from side to side and I am expected to wait for my weapon to bounce over the target to shoot it then my soldier has no control over his weapon.

I do agree that heavy weapons should not be able to move as fast as say assault rifles and sub machine guns at the moment you can move LMGs at same speed as the rest of the weapons. Here is what it looks like when I engage an enemy at close range holding breath doest work well.

[DancZer 65]

I see what is Alsanjuro's issue and he is right.

I think if you hold your breath then the swaying(left to right) should be disappear faster.

When you hold your breath that mean you tense your body which reduce the swaying.

Imagine it like when you

this is the inertia. Holding the breath is like shorten the ruler.

Edit: while player not moving or turning again

Edited August 25, 2014 by danczer

[twisted 127]

I see what is Alsanjuro's issue and he is right.

I think if you hold your breath then the swaying(left to right) should be disappear faster.

When you hold your breath that mean you tense your body which reduce the swaying.

Imagine it like when you

this is the inertia. Holding the breath is like shorten the ruler.

why would holding your breath affect the weight or size of a weapon. it makes no sense. holding your breath should temporarily reduce weapon sway (aka the up and down movement) but if you keep moving your weapon around then inertia comes into play.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Weapon bounces from side to side and I am expected to wait for my weapon to bounce over the target to shoot it then my soldier has no control over his weapon.

I do agree that heavy weapons should not be able to move as fast as say assault rifles and sub machine guns at the moment you can move LMGs at same speed as the rest of the weapons. Here is what it looks like when I engage an enemy at close range holding breath doest work well.

How does that scenario play out while using an SMG? Or an LMG/sniper rifle?

[Greenfist 1863]

why would holding your breath affect the weight or size of a weapon. it makes no sense. holding your breath should temporarily reduce weapon sway (aka the up and down movement) but if you keep moving your weapon around then inertia comes into play.

Like danczer said, holding breath in Arma doesn't just mean stopping breathing, it's also tensing your muscles; struggling to hold the gun steady, which is something you don't constantly do when just casually swinging your weapon.

That sideways sway looks like fatigue sway. I don't remember it looking the same when you're not exhausted. :confused: