Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[msy 22]

In this new branch, the point of impact is where the front sight directs when using iron sight and fast swaying the gun and shooting, which is totally wrong.

:mad:

[maddogx 13]

In this new branch, the point of impact is where the front sight directs when using iron sight and fast swaying the gun and shooting, which is totally wrong.

:mad:

Confirmed. I don't know if it was like this yesterday, but just now I tested it with a "fired" EH that slows down time after I fire a shot.

The bullets don't seem to be coming out of the barrel but are rather flying straight through the player's sight line to the front iron sight, as msy says.

EDIT: hmm, after another more precise test with even slower motion the problem doesn't seem as bad. Bullets do fly off in the expected direction (where the barrel is pointing), but possibly not as far as expected. Maybe it's just a perspective issue.

Edited August 22, 2014 by MadDogX

[solzenicyn 129]

Hi guys, thanks for the great interest and all the valuable feedback provided up to now. Especially the suggestions regarding the 2D optics are really interesting. I would only like to point out now that I've slightly updated the original post to specify the discussed matter and thus remind some of our community members to stay on topic and refrain from discussing other, albeit important, issues here. Thanks for understanding!

[Dorak 11]

How are modded weapons gonna be affected by these changes ?

Don't tell me it's AGAIN one of these changes that will require mod authors to add shit in their config files. Please. Not again. Because we gonna, one more time, end up with three thousand patches, and various packs that don't feature these changes. All coherence will be lost. As fucking usual.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Dorak

[enex 11]

How are modded weapons gonna be affected by these changes ?

Over the next few weeks, we'll publish more technical documentation on the community wiki for those who would like to adjust our predefined behaviour and settings. For now, all the relevant parameters are to be found within the main configuration of Data_F addon. It should be noted that the internal workings of these mechanics are fairly complex, and all parameters should be tweaked together with care.

Source: http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-weapon-inertia

As much as we know.We shall see.

Don't tell me it's AGAIN one of these changes that will require mod authors to add shit in their config files. Please. Not again.

"As with fatigue mechanics before, we would like to gladly ask you for a valuable, constructive and civilized feedback upon the features of weapon inertia, sway and breathing." -Thread post

Please correct your attitude. (yes some updates might break mods, change is they way of life, deal with it with steel nerves.)

Edited August 22, 2014 by enex

[blackpixxel 53]

You CAN add the "shit" to your config. But the mod is still working if you did not add it. You just won't have the inertia effect then.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

The bullets don't seem to be coming out of the barrel but are rather flying straight through the player's sight line to the front iron sight, as msy says.

AFAIK, they've always done that - as indicated by Hypnomatic's tracer script. Seems to be how the zeroing/sight elevation works - rounds move along the axis between 'Konec hlavne' (at the breach) and 'Usti hlavne' (at the muzzle) but their elevation is in line with the 'eye' memory points, so that the rounds cross that same plane at whatever distance the sights are zeroed at.

[Dorak 11]

You CAN add the "shit" to your config. But the mod is still working if you did not add it. You just won't have the inertia effect then.

I edited my previous post.

It's all about coherence. At this point it's almost if you have to make a fucking wiki about the mods you installed to know if they're featuring that particular A3 feature, etc. It's a gigantic mess.

Plus, i already cower in fear imagining how tedious editing these values or adding them to an existing weapon will be.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Dorak

[pettka 694]

How are modded weapons gonna be affected by these changes ?

Don't tell me it's AGAIN one of these changes that will require mod authors to add shit in their config files. Please. Not again. Because we gonna, one more time, end up with three thousand patches, and various packs that don't feature these changes. All coherence will be lost. As fucking usual.

It strongly depends on how the mods are done. There are some basic values set for various core classes (may possibly not hit the development branch yet), which means that at least some inertia should work for all the weapons if they inherit the core classes. And documentation has been already mentioned in the OPREP to be done soon^TM :icon_twisted:

[Dorak 11]

which means that at least some inertia should work for all the weapons if they inherit the core classes

That's a step in the right direction.

[miketim 20]

Even if it requires modifications to the current stuff, its kind of a good thing, bootcamp update helped to filter out the crappy old mods.

Anyway its worth it for the inertia changes, it can really be just another layer to add the feeling of movement and such, and in some instances arma 3 can still have a certain "static" feel of arma 2, and this helps to alleviate that.

[maddogx 13]

AFAIK, they've always done that - as indicated by Hypnomatic's tracer script. Seems to be how the zeroing/sight elevation works - rounds move along the axis between 'Konec hlavne' (at the breach) and 'Usti hlavne' (at the muzzle) but their elevation is in line with the 'eye' memory points, so that the rounds cross that same plane at whatever distance the sights are zeroed at.

So I wonder how the inertia system offsets the bullet's flight path now. It's definitely not just flying through the front of the iron sights as I previously thought.

Slow motion test shooting tracer rounds at stars (WARNING: heavily zoomed, low quality):

fWgBaMDw0KI

But it also doesn't have any lateral motion, which I would expect from a bullet fired "off center".

[da12thMonkey 1943]

So I wonder how the inertia system offsets the bullet's flight path now. It's definitely not just flying through the front of the iron sights as I previously thought.

That just looks like a perpective effect to me. Line of sight isn't long the boresight axis when the player is undergoing inertia, but as the round gets further away the resolvable separation between the line of sight and boresight appears to get smaller as it tends towards a vanishing point - at which point the trajectory looks like a straight path into infinity.

Tracers don't start until about 50m in the distance so they are already a good way towards the vanishing point before they are visible.

[roshnak 41]

I edited my previous post.

It's all about coherence. At this point it's almost if you have to make a fucking wiki about the mods you installed to know if they're featuring that particular A3 feature, etc. It's a gigantic mess.

Plus, i already cower in fear imagining how tedious editing these values or adding them to an existing weapon will be.

It probably could be as simple as copying and pasting values from similar weapons in the main game or as complex as setting up custom values to create a unique experience, depending on the how much work the author wants to do.

And I have to say that if you are this worried about updates breaking mods, modding games might not be for you.

Edited August 22, 2014 by roshnak

[twisted 127]

So I wonder how the inertia system offsets the bullet's flight path now. It's definitely not just flying through the front of the iron sights as I previously thought.

Slow motion test shooting tracer rounds at stars (WARNING: heavily zoomed, low quality):

fWgBaMDw0KI

But it also doesn't have any lateral motion, which I would expect from a bullet fired "off center".

so the bullets do not come from the barrel after this update? thought one of the core features and claims to authenticity that sepearate arma from bf4 or other shooters was the bullets came out the barrel rather than the players eyes. thats a big deal if im undertsanding it right?

[maddogx 13]

so the bullets do not come from the barrel after this update? thought one of the core features and claims to authenticity that sepearate arma from bf4 or other shooters was the bullets came out the barrel rather than the players eyes. thats a big deal if im undertsanding it right?

Tracers are apparently only visible after 50m, so it's hard to say what's happening or where exactly the bullets are originating. I'll look into making a video with artificial visualization of the bullet. (Or maybe someone else will do it first.)

[miketim 20]

If I remember correctly, bullets come out of the receiver of the weapon in arma

(No I don't mean shells, I mean the bullet starts at receiver and continues level with gun)

(According to someone years ago)

But since the receiver is obviously level with the barrel, it should be more or less coming out from the barrels height

---------- Post added at 23:19 ---------- Previous post was at 23:17 ----------

Oh yeah, if you want visualization use that bullet tracing script mission thing

[maddogx 13]

Oh yeah, if you want visualization use that bullet tracing script mission thing

I decided to roll my own using DrawIcon3D. I can also confirm that bullets really do exit the barrel of your rifle and not the players "eyes" or whatever. Video coming soon.

Actually seeing where the bullet is in slow motion is pretty cool. :)

---------- Post added at 02:07 ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 ----------

Here it is. I used TrackIR this time so I could offset the head/view angle.

VDRekuGD0rY

Bullet origin and flight angle definitely look correct to me.

[miketim 20]

"Roll my own" lol

That appears to confirm that it's coming out of the barrel yes? Looks like it to me

[pundra 8]

This thread is full of people saying how great this system is, but it seems awful to me. I was wondering if maybe something is going wrong on my end so I recorded a little clip of me looking around with a rifle.

http://webmup.com/KVVzd

Is that how it looks for everyone else? I'm at 14% load (nothing on me except civ clothes and the MX), 0% fatigue, and the weapon is very jerky even with small, slow, and smooth movements. You can look at the white vertical line to see how smooth or sudden the camera is moving as opposed to the rifle. It seems like the MX weighs a ton or something. At the end of the video I'm not touching the mouse at all and my character can't keep the sight remotely centered onto a target 20 meters away.

[-Coulum- 35]

This thread is full of people saying how great this system is, but it seems awful to me. I was wondering if maybe something is going wrong on my end so I recorded a little clip of me looking around with a rifle.

http://webmup.com/KVVzd

Is that how it looks for everyone else? I'm at 14% load (nothing on me except civ clothes and the MX), 0% fatigue, and the weapon is very jerky even with small, slow, and smooth movements. You can look at the white vertical line to see how smooth or sudden the camera is moving as opposed to the rifle. It seems like the MX weighs a ton or something. At the end of the video I'm not touching the mouse at all and my character can't keep the sight remotely centered onto a target 20 meters away.

That is not what I see when I play. The premise is the same but yours is far exagerated. The reticle almsot never disappears no matter how fast I turn. Maybe it has something to do with your mouse sensitivity, fov or mouse smoothing...? I don't know but that is an extremely overdone version of what I get.

[singleton 22]

WI&S is a good start, however some fundamentals are a bit wrong. Anybody who has operated a firearm, more than with their right hand on the mouse will attest that it is not a bit overdone. The mis/re-alignment of sights is a very good feature. However the inertia is very much overdone when swaying left and right. Much of the apparent misalignment would be solved by pulling the weapon into your shoulder. It is exaggerated to the point that I feel as if I am not a even a soldier, but instead a child handling a weapon for the first time. Amongst other things, changing grip on the weapons handguard, steady fighters stance whether moving or not and pulling the weapon firmly into your shoulderpocket if that is where you are firing from, would alleviate the obnoxious amount of weapon sway when switching targets.

I hate to use this example as this is a well seasoned weapon guy who clearly has many years behind the trigger, however the principle remains the same. Sure, a 19 year old soldier straight out of basic training may not be able to create a FAST SHOOTING compilation however the principles maintain the same. Had BIS' weapon sway and inertia been anything like real life, this video would have been impossibe to create.

Notice how his body stays square with his target. In game it feels like your arms are almost a separate entity to your body in itself, when they are directly affection by your body and shoulders which in turn affects the weapon itself. When moving, aiming and all things alike, it simply doesn't feel like you are controlling the weapon as one with your body, but instead swinging a broomstick towards a target and fighting a runaway weapon which doesn't want to go where you point it. So all in all, its a pretty good addition. The mis/re alignment is pretty good however the sway, especially in a CQB scenario is very very very much overdone and needs to be revisited. I will say the feeling of 'weight' is good. A MX Carbine feels much more 'ergonomic' persay than an MX/EGLM + Flashlight etc.

[roshnak 41]

This thread is full of people saying how great this system is, but it seems awful to me. I was wondering if maybe something is going wrong on my end so I recorded a little clip of me looking around with a rifle.

http://webmup.com/KVVzd

Is that how it looks for everyone else? I'm at 14% load (nothing on me except civ clothes and the MX), 0% fatigue, and the weapon is very jerky even with small, slow, and smooth movements. You can look at the white vertical line to see how smooth or sudden the camera is moving as opposed to the rifle. It seems like the MX weighs a ton or something. At the end of the video I'm not touching the mouse at all and my character can't keep the sight remotely centered onto a target 20 meters away.

Yeah this is really not what I am experiencing. It seems super exaggerated and there are weird stutters in your movement.

WI&S is a good start, however some fundamentals are a bit wrong. Anybody who has operated a firearm, more than with their right hand on the mouse will attest that it is not a bit overdone. The mis/re-alignment of sights is a very good feature. However the inertia is very much overdone when swaying left and right. Much of the apparent misalignment would be solved by pulling the weapon into your shoulder. It is exaggerated to the point that I feel as if I am not a even a soldier, but instead a child handling a weapon for the first time. Amongst other things, changing grip on the weapons handguard, steady fighters stance whether moving or not and pulling the weapon firmly into your shoulderpocket if that is where you are firing from, would alleviate the obnoxious amount of weapon sway when switching targets.

I hate to use this example as this is a well seasoned weapon guy who clearly has many years behind the trigger, however the principle remains the same. Sure, a 19 year old soldier straight out of basic training may not be able to create a FAST SHOOTING compilation however the principles maintain the same. Had BIS' weapon sway and inertia been anything like real life, this video would have been impossibe to create.

Notice how his body stays square with his target. In game it feels like your arms are almost a separate entity to your body in itself, when they are directly affection by your body and shoulders which in turn affects the weapon itself. When moving, aiming and all things alike, it simply doesn't feel like you are controlling the weapon as one with your body, but instead swinging a broomstick towards a target and fighting a runaway weapon which doesn't want to go where you point it. So all in all, its a pretty good addition. The mis/re alignment is pretty good however the sway, especially in a CQB scenario is very very very much overdone and needs to be revisited. I will say the feeling of 'weight' is good. A MX Carbine feels much more 'ergonomic' persay than an MX/EGLM + Flashlight etc.

We've sort of already had this discussion in the weapon sway thread. Pages upon pages of discussion, actually.

The purpose of the changes to mechanics like weapon sway and inertia is not provide a perfectly accurate representation of what it looks or even feels like when you use a firearm. This is not possible, and the recent OPREP basically confirms that this is not Bohemia's goal. The purpose of these changes is to provide a rough analogue that creates more realistic gameplay situations.

Simply put: You should not be asking yourself if this is what it would look like if you were looking through the eyes of a trained soldier in the real world. You should be asking yourself if these mechanics make you make the same considerations and decisions that a soldier would.

So the question I have for you is: Do you think these changes make you behave more realistically in the game?

Edited August 23, 2014 by roshnak

[-Coulum- 35]

We've sort of already had this discussion in the weapon sway thread. Pages upon pages of discussion, actually.

The purpose of the changes to mechanics like weapon sway and inertia is not provide a perfectly accurate representation of what it looks or even feels like when you use a firearm. This is not possible, and the recent OPREP basically confirms that this is not Bohemia's goal. The purpose of these changes is to provide a rough analogue that creates more realistic gameplay situations.

Simply put: You should not be asking yourself if this is what it would look like if you were looking through the eyes of a trained soldier in the real world. You should be asking yourself if these mechanics make you make the same considerations and decisions that a soldier would.

So the question I have for you is: Do you think these changes make you behave more realistically in the game?

Pretty much. Not to mention that engaging targets at 5 metres quickly like the video shows isn't actually that hard to do in game. Five metres is really close.

And JollyResQ, that guy was shooting targets blinded... just because he can do it in real life, doesn't mean every arma player should be able to hit targets blind does it? The sway distortion after quick movements is good, and if you are as good a player as that guy is a shooter, you will be able to easy fight through it and achieve the same accuracy and speed he does.

[gibonez 18]

Wow this might be the best new gameplay feature yet.

I absolutely love all of these new updates focused on gameplay through realistic and semi realistic gameplay features.

First we got an awesome stamina and weight system, then an improved sway , then a great new helicopter flight model and now this.

Awesome stuff.