Why couldn't all the modders work together, and make something better than ACE

[Ckrauslo 12]

Funny guy. If you're going to try to mock me then do a better job you fucking amateur.

Carry on asking pointless questions to strangers in this thread.

Not trying to mock you, if you answer in irony and as a jackass i will reply on the same manner... pointless is to sit here and discuss with someone who rather be on his own ass... than take the "Free time" that you have creating things just for ya self, and maybe trying to help someone or the community it self.... don't wanna help just strafe away, save me from your remarks

[das attorney 857]

I think we might have got off on the wrong foot here as I didn't pop in to take the piss.

Re: getting people to work together, it clearly isn't happening at the moment on an ACE style total mod, although there are some concerted efforts by some groups (AGM etc which is in very early stages but with potential to expand). So understanding the mentality of people and why they don't feel the need to combine efforts is valid. (If something isn't happening, then why not)?

I thought by putting in my own opinion as to why I'm not keen to get involved in a big project, then you could at least see the mentality behind me (and possibly others).

I don't think it's a stupid idea to have a new wunder-mod, and I'd support it as best I can. The intention wasn't to come in here and call you a dick for suggesting it, but to maybe explain why I and maybe some others aren't really interested in participating actively or leading it. There was no irony in my post (despite how it looks).

I just believe you need someone inspirational with a focused mentality and clear vision to come along and start it off. Plus it's hard to work out what the community want.

Lot's want "Life" stuff, others "survival" and others would like more hardcore version of the game so it's possibly more fragmented.

Looking at ACE, it seemed that there were a lot of people who got into the game at the same time and helped each other learn, so they all got to know each other and found they had a common goal. With a lot of the information they learned now freely available in tutorials on the internet, you don't necessarily need the help of others to learn, and so the sense of sharing is lost somewhat.

Also, it's hard to work out what needs to be done until the game has matured a little more. There's two expansions (dlcs) coming out, which are still very light on details, so you have to weigh up whether it's worth trying to build certain systems into the game or wait for them to be released and then you have a clearer view of what needs doing. It would be a shame for an individual to do loads of work on (for example) a logistics system to see a lot of it made redundant by the Helis DLC.

That's just how I see it, but appreciate you/others may disagree.

[BL1P 35]

There are already much better mods than ACE man.

No. there are mods which attempt to do what ACE did but fail. " man "

Doing something which appeals to the masses and claiming its better than ace is just.. how it is at the moment I guess.

Copy paste BS claiming its doing something better but its just a copy doing it worse.

But in response to the OP:-

"Why couldn't all the modders work together, and make something better than ACE"

My guess would be because they introduced money into the mod scene.

so its now a dog eat dog, each man for himself comunity.

Edited July 26, 2014 by BL1P

[Ckrauslo 12]

I think we might have got off on the wrong foot here as I didn't pop in to take the piss.

Re: getting people to work together, it clearly isn't happening at the moment on an ACE style total mod, although there are some concerted efforts by some groups (AGM etc which is in very early stages but with potential to expand). So understanding the mentality of people and why they don't feel the need to combine efforts is valid. (If something isn't happening, then why not)?

I thought by putting in my own opinion as to why I'm not keen to get involved in a big project, then you could at least see the mentality behind me (and possibly others).

I don't think it's a stupid idea to have a new wunder-mod, and I'd support it as best I can. The intention wasn't to come in here and call you a dick for suggesting it, but to maybe explain why I and maybe some others aren't really interested in participating actively or leading it. There was no irony in my post (despite how it looks).

I just believe you need someone inspirational with a focused mentality and clear vision to come along and start it off. Plus it's hard to work out what the community want.

Lot's want "Life" stuff, others "survival" and others would like more hardcore version of the game so it's possibly more fragmented.

Looking at ACE, it seemed that there were a lot of people who got into the game at the same time and helped each other learn, so they all got to know each other and found they had a common goal. With a lot of the information they learned now freely available in tutorials on the internet, you don't necessarily need the help of others to learn, and so the sense of sharing is lost somewhat.

Also, it's hard to work out what needs to be done until the game has matured a little more. There's two expansions (dlcs) coming out, which are still very light on details, so you have to weigh up whether it's worth trying to build certain systems into the game or wait for them to be released and then you have a clearer view of what needs doing. It would be a shame for an individual to do loads of work on (for example) a logistics system to see a lot of it made redundant by the Helis DLC.

That's just how I see it, but appreciate you/others may disagree.

Mate, i don't speak about like everyone is obligated to get involve or to create something from scratch, but like we already have many great things that with just a bit of effort to make them all work better together in one PBo pack "Helps the game to load faster" and would help mission makers that need some mods in their campaign " My self and many others"

And debating about something even as difficult to happening as it is, is not something pointless, it might make people wonder.

And i see your point the community is much scattered by today, the core group that started the communities that we OFP players all know are still here

Edited July 26, 2014 by Ckrauslo

[mihikle 2]

CSE is already better than ACE and it's only just been publicly released as an Alpha! :P

Remember also that when mod makers give things to each other, they can then be released without proper credit, things can be 'stolen', all that type of stuff, which is exactly one of the reasons all the modding I do and my group members do is basically all private and for our use only, where we know no-one will get screwed or their mod sold on another website.

There's no harm in running multiple mods at the same time mate, if distribution to your friends or whatever is a problem, get all the pbos into one mod folder and send it to them on dropbox or something!

[das attorney 857]

Mate, i don't speak about like everyone is obligated to get involve or to create something from scratch, but like we already have many great things that with just a bit of effort to make them all work better together in one PBo pack "Helps the game to load faster" and would help mission makers that need some mods in their campaign " My self and many others"

And debating about something even as difficult to happening as it is, is not something pointless, it might make people wonder.

And i see your point the community is much scattered by today, the core group that started the communities that we OFP players all know are still here

That's true, having one download to manage is much easier than several scattered mods.

I remember Defunkt made a good point about having a standard collection of mods (ACEX) here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?92466-A-C-E-Advanced-Combat-Environment-Public-Beta-*2*!&p=1569918&viewfull=1#post1569918

It will be interesting to see where this goes. If Bohemia can do the Holy Grail of auto-mod management, then we will be seeing a lot more mix-and-match missions/mods so maybe compatibility co-operation between makers will be encouraged as more people will have easy access to their work.

[Ckrauslo 12]

You saying "Holy grail" hypothetically or there was something planned ? I like variety, and there is many modders that bring it to the community, but the problem is to have variety, sometimes cost performance

[BL1P 35]

CSE is already better than ACE and it's only just been publicly released as an Alpha! :P

Remember also that when mod makers give things to each other, they can then be released without proper credit, things can be 'stolen', all that type of stuff, which is exactly one of the reasons all the modding I do and my group members do is basically all private and for our use only, where we know no-one will get screwed or their mod sold on another website.

There's no harm in running multiple mods at the same time mate, if distribution to your friends or whatever is a problem, get all the pbos into one mod folder and send it to them on dropbox or something!

I like CSE a lot tested it for hours at least 20+ hours now.

It is way way behind where ACE was 2 years ago and in no way better than ACE is/was.

No disrespect to the CSE guys.

just stopping the hype that's pure bs.

[Ckrauslo 12]

Does CSE have better operating on the scope knobs? better ballistics that include wind and temperature? "Ace had" i liked CSE, both CSE and AGM have some features i like, and i would like to merge them if it were possible

[BL1P 35]

here it is :-

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ACE_Features

If the mod you are going to compare to ace doesn't have all these features then don't bother posting it.

Edited July 26, 2014 by BL1P

[Gudsawn 93]

There's no harm in running multiple mods at the same time mate, if distribution to your friends or whatever is a problem, get all the pbos into one mod folder and send it to them on dropbox or something!

This could be done (and in fact for a short time our group did used to run a standalone custom mod that contained a wide range of other mods) but, as someone else pointed out, it's not just a matter of packing everything yourself. The beauty of ACE was that it packed alot of features/content into one pack that became the defacto standard. This meant anyone running ACE could join another ACE server without having to run a very particular set of mods (or a private mod pack). Because of this, ACE servers were always extremely popular.

This, upon other reasons, is what made ACE so great.

Also, packing all mods into one pack and creating a dropbox link is quite counter-intuitive. Whenever there's an important update to the mod you will have to manually download it, push it to the dropbox account, and then make sure that all clients have downloaded and properly installed the new update when it comes to the mission night. If you're running a large number of mods, this can be a massive headache. This negates the point of programs such as Play With Six that do all the updating/installing for you.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Goodson

[das attorney 857]

You saying "Holy grail" hypothetically or there was something planned ? I like variety, and there is many modders that bring it to the community, but the problem is to have variety, sometimes cost performance

I think it's an ongoing thing that's been rumbling on for years. They always had a core of people asking for this and community made Six-Updater v0.28 (iirc) was the first proper auto-updater and showed it is possible for addon-sync (and crucially got a lot more people asking for it).

With the changeover to Steam, I don't think it will be far off. They need to sort out a few things first, but seeing as we've now got the ability to DL mods off Steam, I can't see it being too far away until they patch in auto-updating mods from Steam when you try and join a Server with missing mods.

The question of who would host the repository/respositories was always an issue, but won't be an issue now Steam can host the mods. They (Bohemia) just need to write the software to make it talk to the server.exe.

This post is all just personal opinion though - don't quote me on it! :)

[Ckrauslo 12]

Running more than 22 mods at one time in six updater in Arma 2 or 3 impact the performance so badly

---------- Post added at 23:12 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------

I sure do like modders for example that make a helmet in a color, but one unit online or group of people liked his mod but want in other color, for instance black...and he let those people to make a patch that adds the black color to his mod for using in his community as i said i like variety, and as a brazilian military i would love to see some vests or other gear like the ones made from Cunico "i'm his fan" or from SOC mod Team in colors for Brazilian special forces, or British forces "I'm also a fan of the Brits ".

[PuFu 4591]

i agree with kiory: i do things for myself, for my fun. this is not a second job. when it ends that way, i lost the fun in it and interest there. i do 3d stuff (not limited to content) for living though, so there are times when i really am not in the mood for more "personal pet projects" when i am home. it is easier when your mod group understands it (my case), or when you are alone. Also, i really don't like to be given tasks, i do whatever wanna do if i wanna do it, even if there are 3 more of the same type out there (in practice i'll search before starting work on something anyways, but, especially if it is not really high quality, i'll just redo it properly - also i believe that proper work is one that is done from ground up vs ports and alike, since you can control the entire thing)

i was part of ace since its beginnings with a1, and left after a2 version was publicly released. a lot of content was assimilated from other modding groups in that time, that in the end sort of lost their credits towards their community. of course credit has been given in readmes and alike, but nobody actually cared who did it since ace was providing it (for instance even if RH or toadie use meshes and textures from cs:s community, most believe they did it and ask certain model changes that is most of the time outside the scope of all participants authors)

to answer your questions:

1. firstly, there are personal egos at hand. You might get that once you create and release something out there

2. inclusion is not always the best thing

3. users aren't really first on the list of priorities.

4. most stuff should be compatible as long as some config logic is kept. That could also be solved by making a general compatibility config/guideline, say similar to the cba turned out to be a community addon required by a lot of mods because of the extended functions. Ace style of packing and xonfig layout could be a start if you want.

5. The addon synking between server and clients should be BI bussines.

6. Addon makers are working together quite a lot. Just not on the same addon ;)

The question you are posing is from a user perspective. As soon as you go over the fence you will understand part or all of what has been said here

disclaimer: the above represents my own views, and not RHS's nor ACE's

Edited July 27, 2014 by PuFu

[warlord554 2065]

As we discussed this subject before. I admire the concept. I think above all it really has nothing to do with how many mods you have loaded, but that if authors pulled together on certain projects the end result would be much better quality. More so with A3 than the other titles I've seen alot of new ppl to the series, and with that alot of new modders. Which is completely fine, I encourage everyone that is interesed to learn and release content, and in turn grow as a community. However I have also noticed alot of separate addons that could be joined(and made better as a team) resulting in higher quality material. I think what the author is trying to get at is we could create better quality work together. But hey, just my two cents worth

[das attorney 857]

i agree with kiory: i do things for myself, for my fun. this is not a second job. when it ends that way, i lost the fun in it and interest there. i do 3d stuff (not limited to content) for living though, so there are times when i really am not in the mood for more "personal pet projects" when i am home. it is easier when your mod group understands it (my case), or when you are alone. Also, i really don't like to be given tasks, i do whatever wanna do if i wanna do it, even if there are 3 more of the same type out there (in practice i'll search before starting work on something anyways, but, especially if it is not really high quality, i'll just redo it properly - also i believe that proper work is one that is done from ground up vs ports and alike, since you can control the entire thing)

i was part of ace since its beginnings with a1, and left after a2 version was publicly released. a lot of content was assimilated from other modding groups in that time, that in the end sort of lost their credits towards their community. of course credit has been given in readmes and alike, but nobody actually cared who did it since ace was providing it (for instance even if RH or toadie use meshes and textures from cs:s community, most believe they did it and ask certain model changes that is most of the time outside the scope of all participants authors)

to answer your questions:

1. firstly, there are personal egos at hand. You might get that once you create and release something out there

2. inclusion is not always the best thing

3. users aren't really first on the list of priorities.

4. most stuff should be compatible as long as some config logic is kept. That could also be solved by making a general compatibility config/guideline, say similar to the cba turned out to be a community addon required by a lot of mods because of the extended functions. Ace style of packing and xonfig layout could be a start if you want.

5. The addon synking between server and clients should be BI bussines.

6. Addon makers are working together quite a lot. Just not on the same addon ;)

The question you are posing is from a user perspective. As soon as you go over the fence you will understand part or all of what has been said here

disclaimer: the above represents my own views, and not RHS's nor ACE's

Some good points there PuFu - especially on the technical side.

[eggbeast 3673]

well a fairly sizable team has been working on unsung 2.6 mod this past year and we developed a whole lot of stuff never seen much before in arma. it's due out this week.

we worked on this because we felt we could not work safely in arma 3. A3 was too much of a leap in terms of there being no modern/normal content to work with as a baseline.

additionally, BIS kept doing micro-updates so debugging was impossible for a good year from launch of alpha.

I've also been working with some of the guys with lars and the dutch armed forces mod, and on a BAF-expanded mod (due out next week) with a lot of contributors from other mods, and a weapons and aircraft overhaul (with an ACE-level overhaul pack) for all vehicles and aircarft in arma 2 (called Rangemaster, due out next week).

so a lot of us have been modding A2, and developing new stuff there. just not much in A3... yet.

I totally agree though that we need a base set of realistic classes for bullets, bombs, missiles, etc plus some nifty functions and options, working cross-mod. I've been busy porting our teams developments and innovations (+ some scripts and ideas from other contributors from before - PRACS/ Gnat/ Myke etc) into other mods, to help the guys making them to develop things much more quickly. the DAF aircraft and tank loadouts released this week on armaholic are good examples of this collaboration.

so from my (limited) POV it is happening here, but not in A3, and not as ACE. but yeah it is fun and it is exciting.

I should add that what gets me involved usually is a desire from the modder for me to make them an evolution mission with their mod, and then we get chatting and lots of the guys gather round the fire and shoot the shit, and next thing you know we're all editing the original guys mod system with him, for several months lol and it's really nice work and good fun. my aim is to have different servers running my missions with the different country/ theater mod packs, and with a standard of quality in the mod that we are gonna love, (and none of them use ACE, but that's just our pref).

and just lately another aim is to create sound public servers with a lot of players.

Edited July 27, 2014 by eggbeast

[noubernou 77]

I think this was done before... A bunch of people got together and got all the really good modders together and asked them to make stuff that worked together.

I think it was called Advanced something? Combat maybe? I don't know, but it was some sort of Environment...

[das attorney 857]

@NouberNou - it was definitely Environment Combat Advanced iirc.

Like trees attacking rocks or something.

[noubernou 77]

here it is :-

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ACE_Features

If the mod you are going to compare to ace doesn't have all these features then don't bother posting it.

And that is the feature list for ACE1, not even ACE2.

None of the artillery stuff is in there, a lot of the advanced missile guidance systems, aircraft hud improvements, fragmentation, etc are even listed.

[PuFu 4591]

I think this was done before... A bunch of people got together and got all the really good modders together and asked them to make stuff that worked together.

I think it was called Advanced something? Combat maybe? I don't know, but it was some sort of Environment...

ohhhhh.....really??? what a tease :p

[Ckrauslo 12]

Nice to see that people are actually debating this

@Warlord554 is exactly what i'm trying to say

@Pufu i created stuff for friends that released some missions "Mostly templates" i simply don't have an ego

[noubernou 77]

i agree with kiory: i do things for myself, for my fun. this is not a second job. when it ends that way, i lost the fun in it and interest there. i do 3d stuff (not limited to content) for living though, so there are times when i really am not in the mood for more "personal pet projects" when i am home. it is easier when your mod group understands it (my case), or when you are alone. Also, i really don't like to be given tasks, i do whatever wanna do if i wanna do it, even if there are 3 more of the same type out there (in practice i'll search before starting work on something anyways, but, especially if it is not really high quality, i'll just redo it properly - also i believe that proper work is one that is done from ground up vs ports and alike, since you can control the entire thing)

i was part of ace since its beginnings with a1, and left after a2 version was publicly released. a lot of content was assimilated from other modding groups in that time, that in the end sort of lost their credits towards their community. of course credit has been given in readmes and alike, but nobody actually cared who did it since ace was providing it (for instance even if RH or toadie use meshes and textures from cs:s community, most believe they did it and ask certain model changes that is most of the time outside the scope of all participants authors)

to answer your questions:

1. firstly, there are personal egos at hand. You might get that once you create and release something out there

2. inclusion is not always the best thing

3. users aren't really first on the list of priorities.

4. most stuff should be compatible as long as some config logic is kept. That could also be solved by making a general compatibility config/guideline, say similar to the cba turned out to be a community addon required by a lot of mods because of the extended functions. Ace style of packing and xonfig layout could be a start if you want.

5. The addon synking between server and clients should be BI bussines.

6. Addon makers are working together quite a lot. Just not on the same addon ;)

The question you are posing is from a user perspective. As soon as you go over the fence you will understand part or all of what has been said here

disclaimer: the above represents my own views, and not RHS's nor ACE's

This is exactly how ACE operates for the most part, just there is oversight on content committed to make sure its all interoperable and up to certain standards.

People work on what they want, we discuss over all ideas and approaches and we have a pool of talent that can contribute to large projects as well. It is very free form, and more of a collective than anything else. We also constantly look to the community for talent and we recruit those that are the best.

So the point of this thread really seems to be another "If ACE isn't coming out [and it is], then why can't we make ACE ourselves?".

My response to that is if you think you are talented enough, and you are willing to listen to other peoples suggestions and work with others to some degree (and it's very minimal) then why aren't you offering to work with ACE right now? We can always use more help!

[Ckrauslo 12]

This is exactly how ACE operates for the most part, just there is oversight on content committed to make sure its all interoperable and up to certain standards.

People work on what they want, we discuss over all ideas and approaches and we have a pool of talent that can contribute to large projects as well. It is very free form, and more of a collective than anything else. We also constantly look to the community for talent and we recruit those that are the best.

So the point of this thread really seems to be another "If ACE isn't coming out [and it is], then why can't we make ACE ourselves?".

My response to that is if you think you are talented enough, and you are willing to listen to other peoples suggestions and work with others to some degree (and it's very minimal) then why aren't you offering to work with ACE right now? We can always use more help!

No this is not a thread saying if ACE is not coming out, this is a thread that is saying about collaborations and people taking their work and sharing in a degree that makes more easy to use it... The mere use of the name ACE is because a lot of people cry cause there is no ACE

[PuFu 4591]

This is exactly how ACE operates for the most part, just there is oversight on content committed to make sure its all interoperable and up to certain standards.

oh, i for one know that, it was same before. never have i said it wasn't that way.