New Weaponsway is way to much. And holding breath bug?

[roshnak 41]

Sure. Send me a digital camera (or, better yet, a digital video camera) by mail, and I'll have the test uploaded the next day.

You don't have a camera on your phone?

Folks, I've already done this test several times, and I just did it again five minutes ago. I'm getting unrested pistol figures between 1 and 2 millimeters, measured at the muzzle by a ruler. Do your own damn tests and see for yourselves -- it isn't rocket science -- you don't need a video to find out for yourselves that what I'm saying is true. You don't even need a real pistol -- any object which is similar in size, shape, & mass to a pistol will sufficiently demonstrate the matter.

A pistol is not a rifle. You should really stop using your experience with pistols to judge what happens with a rifle. (Although, I don't believe you only experience a millimeter of sway with a pistol, either.)

I don't know why Cpt.O was unable to come anywhere near my figures, but if he wasn't drunk and doesn't have a severe physiological impairment (such as Parkinson's disease), then I can't help but wonder if he's intentionally waving the thing around for dramatic effect. I can't think of any other reason his muzzle would be wandering five times more than mine. (I'm not even a great marksman -- someone who's more practiced than me and/or in better physical condition would have less tremble than I do.)

Here's the thing, CaptainObvious's results are about I would expect. I've spoken about this topic at length with a person I know who was in the military and is a very good marksman. He doesn't think the sway in Arma is unreasonable. He also doesn't think that 1mm sway at the barrel is something that a human being is capable of.

Also, for someone who was so sensitive about his own injury, you sure are quick to question other people's physical capabilities.

[Echo38 1]

You don't have a camera on your phone?

Not one that has any means of transferring pictures to my computer, no. I'm not much interested in the latest & greatest cellular gadgets.

I don't believe you only experience a millimeter of sway with a pistol, either.

You're right; it's about two millimeters. My initial estimate of 1mm was before I started using a ruler to measure it. The shake happens too quickly and is too small to determine an exact figure, but it is roughly 2mm. We both agree that a rifle isn't going to be the same; but, as I said earlier, I do not have good access to my rifle at present. The closest I could come was using a lighter object that was rifle-sized; since the weight could be a large factor, I don't feel comfortable with using this test to support my ~2mm figure; however, for what little it's worth, I was able to get about the same deviation measured from the "muzzle" as I was with the pistol.

Also, for someone who was so sensitive about his own injury, you sure are quick to question other people's physical capabilities.

I dislike mentioning my old injury for reasons which this thread made obvious: Internet people frequently are disrespectful & dismissive of it (e.g. the three or four people in this thread telling me that my disability wasn't worth considering). Cpt.O posted a test with the implication that he does not have any handicap, but his test results are bizarre & unusual; I don't feel that I am being inconsiderate by questioning those results. If he actually does have Parkinson's disease (which I highly doubt -- rather, I suspect he was pretty tipsy already by the time he did his test), or a similar malady, I harbor no disrespect toward him for it.

---------- Post added at 14:51 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------

I've said more than enough. If I were wiser, I would never have written in this thread; I've used the Internet for too long to have an excuse for believing that any amount of discussion will change anyone's mind on a subject they've already decided on, no matter how legitimate their opponent's evidence. There's more than enough information here for anyone who genuinely wishes to know the truth of the matter to easily find out for himself, so I am -- have been -- wasting time. Good afternoon.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Echo38

[soulis6 24]

I dislike mentioning my old injury for reasons which this thread made obvious: Internet people frequently are disrespectful & dismissive of it (e.g. the three or four people in this thread telling me that my disability wasn't worth considering).

I don't think that's quite fair, I wasn't intending to be disrespectful of your injury, just pointing out that it's (highly) impractical for any game designer in the world to take any sort of injury into account, for multiple reasons. If it was something extremely common like color blindness, sure, but anything else is going to be quickly impossible to even scratch the surface of accommodating people with such a large variety of problems, who make up an extremely small percentage of the playerbase.

About the topic issue, I think measuring actual sway in real life is not going to lead to anything fruitful. They're never going to be able to recreate real life weapon handling in game, because the methods of control and completely different. Unless you're talking about a VR situation where the player is actually holding a (fake) real gun, it's never going to be comparable.

What they should be aiming for (and in my opinion are on the right track), is for a more authentic and engaging end result and 'feel' of the firefights, regardless of what handicaps or bonuses they give to the player. If having weapon sway, that doesn't behave exactly as a person would see looking down the barrel in real life, makes it so that the overall accuracy of players is worse and results in better, more tactical firefights, and less extreme range engagements, i'm 100% all for that.

I think the only thing two things missing are AI tweaking to adapt to this new weapon handling (turning down their accuracy a lot at higher ranges would help), and having an official implementation of bipods and weapon resting, which it sounds like is coming soon.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Soulis6

[mjolnir66 48]

I've said more than enough. If I were wiser, I would never have written in this thread; I've used the Internet for too long to have an excuse for believing that any amount of discussion will change anyone's mind on a subject they've already decided on, no matter how legitimate their opponent's evidence. There's more than enough information here for anyone who genuinely wishes to know the truth of the matter to easily find out for himself, so I am -- have been -- wasting time. Good afternoon.

As an infantryman myself, I and perfectly happy with the current sway. And, on top of that, you haven't actually come up with any form of evidence other than "because I say so". And on top of that, the only thing you've tried to use as evidence is utterly disenginious and irrelevant to the discussion at large. There are very few people who care about pistol sway in ARMA because noone uses them with any regularity and even when they do, its at ranges where sway doesn't matter. A rifle is an entirely different concept altogether.

[roshnak 41]

I've said more than enough. If I were wiser, I would never have written in this thread; I've used the Internet for too long to have an excuse for believing that any amount of discussion will change anyone's mind on a subject they've already decided on, no matter how legitimate their opponent's evidence. There's more than enough information here for anyone who genuinely wishes to know the truth of the matter to easily find out for himself, so I am -- have been -- wasting time. Good afternoon.

You haven't provided any evidence. Numerous other people have.

Like I said previously: Even other people in this thread who don't like the weapon sway did not describe real life shooting experiences that match up with what you are describing. How can you possibly explain that, especially given the fact that you have yet to actually test your theory yourself with your own rifle?

[Reuben5150 2]

Stop comparing "real life" because this is still just a game and even if it's meant to be a simulator it fails because 1: it's set in the future (so we only assume how that would look) and 2: BI claim A3 is authentic not realistic, seems confused.

I don't bother posting on forums much these days and havent played A3 much recently either, but after a few minutes playing today its quite clear the weapon sway on 4x and upward scopes is far too much, this is "basic" stuff which should have been finalised in BETA! Why is it necessary to keep messing with this, IMO right now A3 is unplayable because of this and also fatigue, please fix.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Sure. Send me a digital camera (or, better yet, a digital video camera) by mail, and I'll have the test uploaded the next day.

Where do you live? I think I have an old compact camera lying somewhere that should be capable of recording a video, or I could order you one of those cheap china made cameras from eBay.

Folks, I've already done this test several times, and I just did it again five minutes ago. I'm getting unrested pistol figures between 1 and 2 millimeters, measured at the muzzle by a ruler. Do your own damn tests and see for yourselves -- it isn't rocket science -- you don't need a video to find out for yourselves that what I'm saying is true. You don't even need a real pistol -- any object which is similar in size, shape, & mass to a pistol will sufficiently demonstrate the matter.

No, you've done your test, which (if I'm not mistaken) includes aiming at a ruler taped on a mirror and that's it, the result is anything you want to tell us, the ruler isn't gonna do any measuring by itself nor give any actual result for that matter.

I don't know why Cpt.O was unable to come anywhere near my figures, but if he wasn't drunk and doesn't have a severe physiological impairment (such as Parkinson's disease), then I can't help but wonder if he's intentionally waving the thing around for dramatic effect. I can't think of any other reason his muzzle would be wandering five times more than mine. (I'm not even a great marksman -- someone who's more practiced than me and/or in better physical condition would have less tremble than I do.)

Because I actually tested the sway with such a manner that I got some actual real results "printed" on a piece of paper, I've ordered some ND filters for my camera and a laser sight for the rifle, when they arrive I can get some figures of the sway at the target itself, pretty interesting to see that I must say.

You're right; it's about two millimeters. My initial estimate of 1mm was before I started using a ruler to measure it. The shake happens too quickly and is too small to determine an exact figure, but it is roughly 2mm. We both agree that a rifle isn't going to be the same; but, as I said earlier, I do not have good access to my rifle at present. The closest I could come was using a lighter object that was rifle-sized; since the weight could be a large factor, I don't feel comfortable with using this test to support my ~2mm figure; however, for what little it's worth, I was able to get about the same deviation measured from the "muzzle" as I was with the pistol.

The capital letter 'O' is pretty much 2mm wide on a 23" FullHD display, if you really manage to hold your sway inside of that, I'm amazed, blown away even, and will gladly send you a camera capable of recording that sway on video and uploading the video on your comp and to YTube.

I've said more than enough. If I were wiser, I would never have written in this thread; I've used the Internet for too long to have an excuse for believing that any amount of discussion will change anyone's mind on a subject they've already decided on, no matter how legitimate their opponent's evidence. There's more than enough information here for anyone who genuinely wishes to know the truth of the matter to easily find out for himself, so I am -- have been -- wasting time. Good afternoon.

:):):)

About the topic issue, I think measuring actual sway in real life is not going to lead to anything fruitful. They're never going to be able to recreate real life weapon handling in game, because the methods of control and completely different. Unless you're talking about a VR situation where the player is actually holding a (fake) real gun, it's never going to be comparable.

I kind of agree, the sway pattern itself is something not worth trying to model accurately in-game, just the general shape and magnitude of it.

What they should be aiming for (and in my opinion are on the right track), is for a more authentic and engaging end result and 'feel' of the firefights, regardless of what handicaps or bonuses they give to the player. If having weapon sway, that doesn't behave exactly as a person would see looking down the barrel in real life, makes it so that the overall accuracy of players is worse and results in better, more tactical firefights, and less extreme range engagements, i'm 100% all for that.

Exactly, the way it looks and feels when I'm countering the sway represents real life quite good at the moment I think, the firefights last longer and are more adrenaline-inducing, of course further improvements are always welcome.

I think the only thing two things missing are AI tweaking to adapt to this new weapon handling (turning down their accuracy a lot at higher ranges would help), and having an official implementation of bipods and weapon resting, which it sounds like is coming soon.

This is my biggest gripe at the moment, but as the change logs tell us, they are on it.

[dav 22]

There could be an option in the controller settings for people with hand fatigue or damaged hands that perhaps even autoaims for those who are unable to manage the sway.

[CaptainObvious 95]

^ When I have hand fatigue, I don't .. uh .. never mind.

[UltimateBawb 1]

Stop comparing "real life" because this is still just a game and even if it's meant to be a simulator it fails because 1: it's set in the future (so we only assume how that would look) and 2: BI claim A3 is authentic not realistic, seems confused.

This game is supposed to be realistic. Semantics aren't going to help you change that. Stop.

[soulis6 24]

This game is supposed to be realistic. Semantics aren't going to help you change that. Stop.

Sorry, but you're the one who's being confused by language. What do you think realistic means? True to life? It's a game, it can't be 100%, it's impossible. It would also be incredibly boring. You can't translate things from real life to a game that don't apply.

[4brkfast 10]

It's very unrealistic. And near intolerable! I really enjoy playing Arma games. But now it's as if this simulator game is simulating people that have never held or used a gun before in their entire life.

On one instance while my stamina was around 20% gone and aiming no more than 100 meters the gun was unbearably moving to a point where I could not manage to keep the iron site on the player for longer than 0.1 seconds. It's not realistic and you don't have to be a trained soldier to confirm this.

I don't want this to seem like an attack. It's not. I want this game to be fun again.

I suggest adding an option to disable the endless side to side sway that is not predicated on stamina, position or the relative size or weight of the weapon. As well as a reduction by no less than 80%.

It's as if the soldiers in this game currently are in absolutely terrible shape, have nerve, arm or back problems that give them perpetual pain and are inexperienced handling guns. The game was already very challenging before with the very short hold breath function and sway. But now it's near game breaking.

Please address this. And please, go shooting in real life. Shoot a shotgun or something, they weigh more than some of these assault rifles and are a challenge to keep steady - however, you -can- manage to keep it steady for a short period even while standing.

And these are soldiers, correct? That is what the game is simulating - not civilians but trained killers. Please fix this! Please please please please please please.

This kind of sway for a weapon like the Katiba while crouched and 20% stamina loss sways like the soldier is completely out of breath and is trying to hold steady a weapon like the Lynx, which would be very understandable. Meanwhile handguns have far less side to side sway which is very backwards. The handguns should have the sway, not shouldered rifles while prone and rested.

Please make the game enjoyable again. And understand this isn't a complaint or attack. It's just reality. The game is a lot less fun and it's not simulating soldiers. It's simulating untrained civilians that are out of shape and have terrible coordination.

[roshnak 41]

I kind of agree, the sway pattern itself is something not worth trying to model accurately in-game, just the general shape and magnitude of it.

I don't think we have any reason to believe that everyone experiences the same sway pattern, anyway. We're not robots.

There could be an option in the controller settings for people with hand fatigue or damaged hands that perhaps even autoaims for those who are unable to manage the sway.

That sounds really unfair. What would be stopping anyone from turning that on and having a free advantage over other players?

It's very unrealistic. And near intolerable! I really enjoy playing Arma games. But now it's as if this simulator game is simulating people that have never held or used a gun before in their entire life.

That's not what the guy who claims he's an infantryman on the previous page said.

[nutshot 10]

Infantry has been ruined to the point where the only option in mods like king of the hill is to vehicle whore.

honestly, getting out of a car and walking 10m up a hill fully fatigues a soldier with an AT launcher, sigh so bad...

[BL1P 35]

Infantry has been ruined to the point where the only option in mods like king of the hill is to vehicle whore.

honestly, getting out of a car and walking 10m up a hill fully fatigues a soldier with an AT launcher, sigh so bad...

I find i can get quite far as an AT INf if i carry 1 AT rocket, 1 launcher, 1 smg with 3 mags, radio, gps, 1 white 1 green smoke.

I find i do not get far if I carry 3 AT rockets, 1 launcher , 1 Heavy gun with 15-20 mags, radio, gps, nvgs, laser pointer, silencer,pistol +mags+items, grenades, smokes.

I find i can't go 10m uphill if i carry the above with a sniper rifle or MG.

I think too many people have been playing as super soldiers for so long they don't know how to take a sensible kit anymore.

btw

King of the Hill is a mission not a mod.

[Reuben5150 2]

This game is supposed to be realistic.

Funny that because A2 seems far more realistic and playable than this.

@ nutshot, agreed infantry has been ruined.

[CaptainObvious 95]

I don't think we have any reason to believe that everyone experiences the same sway pattern, anyway. We're not robots.

Yes, my thoughts exactly.

That sounds really unfair. What would be stopping anyone from turning that on and having a free advantage over other players?

I think he was goofing around a little. :icon_twisted:

[-Coulum- 35]

Guys (ie. Reuben, 4brkfast, nut shot)

Who here in real life can shoot better than you can in arma? Who can hit targets at 500 metres from a crouch in mere seconds with consistency?

If you are honest, and you have firearms experience, you know that what you can do in arma with a weapon, is much more than what you can do in reality. And please understand I am not talking about distances or accuracies alone but the time, stance, concentration and rest it requires to achieve that accuracy, at that distance. I don't think there is one person who can say, with a straight face, that in arma, even with 1.24 weaponsway, you are unable to engage targets like you would in reality. Excluding the use of weapon resting, benches etc. Its been proven and confirmed by many videos in this thread. Assuming we are on the same page...

Weapon sway/deviation will never look like a 1:1 reproduction of what you see and feel in real life. Everyone handles a weapon differently and 2d screens and a keyboard lacks advantages and challenges we have in reality. That's why I don't care much whether weaponsway looks or feels 100% realistic too much. It is an unattainable goal. Of course it can be improved but what I am more concerned about is it effects on the gameplay and the results of shooting while in combat. And right now, in that regard, 1.24 sway achieves more realistic results and firefights than any iteration of the game. period.

So: those against sway but want "realism" - I understand you don't want the unimmersive, disconnected weapon bob because it doesn't feel realistic. But you must understand that simply removing or reducing sway sacrifices realism when it comes to the difficulty of shooting. So instead of simply demanding sway be turned down try to think of ways that will make the sway simultaneously feel and look more real and realistically limit ones shooting ability. That is the only way you will have maximum gameplay and aesthetic realism.

Considering my above ramblings, anybody have any new ideas?

There have been suggestions already. Echo suggests more of a random tremour rather than a sway. The way I imagine that is similar to arma 2 system where the weapon would jitter rather than sway smoothly. I personally am againt this because arma 2 shooting was extremely easy, and if the tremour was upped to make it realistically difficult to shoot, it would be even more unimmersive to players aesthetically. There would be complaints about epileptic seizures. And to top it offhitting target would be less about skill and concentration of the player and more about luck and volume of fire making realistic long range sniping unachievable. Echo maybe you have more suggestions about how to overcome these problems?

And earlier than that there was a fairly productive conversation about sway and how it would look alot more closer to life (though not perfect) if it was less horizontal sway and more vertical sway. Generally I don't think this is a bad idea though I think other adjustments (faster sway speed) would have to be made to compensate for the ease of predicting a mainly vertical sway, in order to maintain a realistic amount of difficulty. Here are my suggestions. I am interested to know from those who don't agree how this could be changed to make it even better.

------------------------------------------------

Regarding the whole sway/deviation drawing/recording/measuring dete: like mentioned the actual pattern of sway is the going to be different to everyone so its not that important. What's important is magnitude, speed and direction. and even more important, is overall how it effects ones ability to not only achieve accuracy, but also speed and precision. Even if we got an exact replica of a soldiers rested sway in game somehow, I don't think it would necessarily result in realistic gunplay because there is more going on in reality. That is why I think the whole sway drawing thing, while interesting and gives us perspective, isn't a fool proof way of determining what we should see on our screens.

Still though, Echo38 I do find it odd:

There's roughly five times more weapon sway in Arma 3 than I have in real life shooting. ~5mm deviation measured from end of barrel, compared with ~1mm deviation.

Your ~2mm. figure sounds reasonable -- my ~1mm one may indeed be optimistic; I didn't use a ruler.

However -- and I feel this merits a separate post -- after a stop by the virtual shooting range today, I must concede that my character is, in fact, a significantly better shot in Arma 3 than I am in real life. Even with the current ridiculous cursor-chasing minigame. The problem isn't hitting the targets

holding a weapon steady in real life does not hurt my hand, while trying to hold the same weapon steady in Arma 3 hurts my hand

Its odd because your rifle doesn't deviate more than 2mm in reality (significantly less than arma's sway), yet you still find it easier to shoot targets in arma than you do in real life, despite the fact that you have a hand injury which you say is more irritated by using a mouse than a real weapon. Those statments don't all tell the same story. One has to be false. My guess is that you are underestimating just how much your weapon deviates in reality. 2mm deviation offhand and you would be able to hit someone directly in the pupil from 10m away and never ever miss. You think thats the case...?

[CaptainObvious 95]

^ Just to make sure, I never meant my sway pattern to be something we all should see in Arma, I was just interested to see just how much sway I get with a rifle, and what kind of sway.

Edited August 2, 2014 by CaptainObvious

[galzohar 31]

Something as basic as the ability of the soldier to hit its targets should behave as close to real life as possible. All the "it's a game" excuses really shouldn't apply here. Having this done correctly will not hinder your ability to play this game in any way. It will just have to make you adjust your tactics to something that more resembles the tactics that would be used in real life. IMO that's a very good thing. Currently, the it is still easier to hit targets in-game than it is in real life, so the new sway is at least a good step in the right direction.

I think people tend too much to compare the soldier's ability in-game to what they're used to be able to do in-game, and not to what a real soldier should be able to do. Soldiers in games (not just ArmA - Other games have it worse) are simply way more capable than real life soldiers - Even the best trained ones.

Bottom line is that hitting a target at 200m while standing and tired is just not feasible in a real combat situations. In ArmA it's not a big deal, though, which is wrong. If you have any sense of realism left in you, you shouldn't be complaining about aiming being too difficult nor complaining that the game simulates a soldier who's never held a weapon before.

Edited August 2, 2014 by galzohar

[dav 22]

Yes, my thoughts exactly.

I think he was goofing around a little. :icon_twisted:

+1 :) I was totally goofing around!!

[Sgt DeWolf 21]

My critique on the recent change is that they should have implemented a weapon resting mechanic into the game before they did this. If it wasn't for vts weapon resting (http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=20816), I wouldn't even be playing A3 in it's current state.

[Reuben5150 2]

I don't have a problem with the sway if it can be controlled but it can't, holding breath doesn't seem to do anything and weapon resting and bipods should NOT be a solution only an option, an option which sacrifices maneuverabillity obviously.

One key to hold you breath for a few seconds while taking the shot, I doesn't need to be anymore complex than that.

It's been years since I fired a real weapon but I don't remember having problems with scopes swaying around like in this game, but I just don't think you can compare real life to the game, need to focus on how it feels and how it plays.

[roshnak 41]

I don't have a problem with the sway if it can be controlled but it can't, holding breath doesn't seem to do anything and weapon resting and bipods should NOT be a solution only an option, an option which sacrifices maneuverabillity obviously.

Seems pretty controllable to me. 40 seconds to hit 4 targets 1 km away. And that video was recorded about a day after the patch dropped -- I could probably do better now.

I believe that breath holding is broken in the current patch, but I unbound it so I'm not sure. Personally, I don't even like the idea of having a hold breath function that negates weapon sway, because it basically makes the sway irrelevant.

I'm also not sure why you think that bipods and weapon resting impair maneuverability. You don't get stuck to a surface when you lay your gun on it.

[-Coulum- 35]

I don't have a problem with the sway if it can be controlled but it can't, holding breath doesn't seem to do anything and weapon resting and bipods should NOT be a solution only an option, an option which sacrifices maneuverabillity obviously.

It can be controlled and mastered with patience, concentration, time and skill. Roshnak's vid makes it look easy. I am able to hit targets out to 1500m with the 1.24 sway, and I am not really a great fps player. No doubt, it takes a fair amount of time, but I think for such shots it is reasonable. I was even able to get a hit on a moving target which feels amazingly satisfying!

And the more I play the better I will get.

I believe that breath holding is broken in the current patch, but I unbound it so I'm not sure. Personally, I don't even like the idea of having a hold breath function that negates weapon sway, because it basically makes the sway irrelevant.

I actually kind of agree that it shouldn't just full out negate the sway. I think instead it should just slow it down (but not change its direction at all) so you can more easily line up shots, but still have to really focus on predicting the sway before hand. Even with hold breath, sway should always be present.

In Dev it is "fixed", but I still don't like how it functions - it basically just takes out all vertical sway. For the first few seconds its actually confusing because your sway has suddenly changed direction. I don't use it for really long range shots where I have time to get a feel for the sway because of this. Instead I only use it for medium range (300-400) when unable to go prone while being short on time. Thats not how I think it should be used.

Speaking of devbranch, I have gotten more time to play with it and it isn't as easy as it originally was. I think the new breathing changes or the tweak to the "sway formula" have quickened the sway or something because I find it requires a reasonable amount of concentration to hit at long range. I am actually pretty happy with it. My main concern is its a bit easy to shoot from crouched and standing - but I guess that may be to make up for the fact that there is no weapon resting. Overall I am pretty happy with dev as is (besides the hold breath as I mentioned above). I like the challenge of 1.24 more, but devbranch has that "realistic" up and down breathing motion. I made a comparison video below.

Edited August 3, 2014 by -Coulum-