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HAseONE

New Weaponsway is way to much. And holding breath bug?

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I don't think it produces anything realistic because the horizontal sway is ridiculous, but that is my opinion, based on years and years of experience firing rifles in real life and not seeing much horizontal sway.

So when the sway was minimized and we are now able to easily hit targets at 2200 metres you don't think that is any less realistic than the stable sway where it was at least a bit of a challenge to hit targets at 1500 mteres. Please have an open mind. Are you really going to tell me that the sway doesn't produce any more realistic results. I am trying to work with you here...

If the sway was 90% vertical and 10% horizontal it wouldn't feel unrealistic to me and I would enjoy it. I wrote out my idea (edit: post #165) a few posts back, and I am working on a mod for my group that does exactly that.

So basically 1.24 stable sway but with alot more vertical sway, but alot less horizontal sway would be fine? Would you not find the bobbing up and down weird and unrealistic though? And how would you make it so that people miss side to side - because in reality 90% of misses are too low and too high, while 10% too wide. In my experience misses are pretty much as often too far left and right as they are high and low (assuming the rifle is correctly zeroed). Generally there are more misses on the the bottom of the than the top (that's just what I notice when examining other people targets as well as my own). How would one make that happen in game. I don't think 10% horizontal sway would create that kind of pattern.

How does taking the current sway and rotating its axis make it not a minigame, though?

Yes thats what I was wondering as well...

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He's referring to the fact that heavier weapon sway forces closer range engagements and encourages the use of suppression and fire and maneuver tactics, while dissuading people from sniping at each other from 600 meters. What he's asking is if you disagree that those are the effects of the new sway or if you disagree that those effects are more realistic or both or neither.

If people want to play that way and like it that's awesome and I respect that, but my group we did that before this system because we crank the difficulty up and have assigned roles. Honestly though even at close range it is annoying. Like I've said before its not any more challenging its more of an annoyance.

How does taking the current sway and rotating its axis make it not a minigame, though?

Lol the whole minigame thing, I really shouldn't have called it that, I just couldn't think of a better term for the way I feel about it.

If it was vertical it wouldn't feel like an annoyance to me because it would feel realistic, therefore not making it a minigame, in my opinion :)

---------- Post added at 04:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 AM ----------

So when the sway was minimized and we are now able to easily hit targets at 2200 metres you don't think that is any less realistic than the stable sway where it was at least a bit of a challenge to hit targets at 1500 mteres. Please have an open mind. Are you really going to tell me that the sway doesn't produce any more realistic results. I am trying to work with you here...

People can hit that far because the ballistics system in ArmA 3 isn't realistic enough to prevent it. There are a lot of things that have to go right to hit something from that far even with a stabilized sniper platform. Certain addons help a lot with this.

So basically 1.24 stable sway but with alot more vertical sway, but alot less horizontal sway would be fine? Would you not find the bobbing up and down weird and unrealistic though? And how would you make it so that people miss side to side - because in reality 90% of misses are too low and too high, while 10% too wide. In my experience misses are pretty much as often too far left and right as they are high and low (assuming the rifle is correctly zeroed). Generally there are more misses on the the bottom of the than the top (that's just what I notice when examining other people targets as well as my own). How would one make that happen in game. I don't think 10% horizontal sway would create that kind of pattern.

If the target is moving it is challenging enough for people to hit it regardless of the sway. All I'm saying is give people or server admins the (vanilla) option to adjust the sway between horizontal and vertical and everyone will be happy.

The bobbing up and down wouldn't feel weird and unrealistic to me cause it isn't...

When you are holding an unsupported rifle up it naturally sways up and down from your breathing, even moreso with magnification, but no where near as bad as this even vertically.

Edited by Rath

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Lol the whole minigame thing, I really shouldn't have called it that, I just couldn't think of a better term for the way I feel about it.

If it was vertical it wouldn't feel like an annoyance to me because it would feel realistic, therefore not making it a minigame, in my opinion

I can understand that.

Like I've said before its not any more challenging its more of an annoyance.
Really?... Really? I think that like everyone else would disagree with that... I mean if that's honestly how you feel I don't really think I can take your argeuments seriously. Because it is quite obvious that more sway makes shooting harder... or am I misunderstanding you. Do you really disagree with this:
So when the sway was minimized and we are now able to easily hit targets at 2200 metres you don't think that is any less realistic than the stable sway where it was at least a bit of a challenge to hit targets at 1500 mteres. Please have an open mind. Are you really going to tell me that the sway doesn't produce any more realistic results. I am trying to work with you here...

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Holding a weapon still in real life requires effort and concentration, while holding your mouse still in real life requires no effort at all.

In reality, when you aren't breathing hard, there is no sway at all. Merely a slight tremble. It really isn't difficult to keep the rifle mostly-still in reality, even while standing, when you're reasonably fit and not exhausted. (Compare to Arma 3, where it's beyond difficult to keep the rifle mostly-still while standing or even crouched, even when fully rested.) Again, there's always going to be a little tremble -- heartbeat, if nothing else -- but it really isn't at all difficult to keep a real rifle mostly-still. Arma is wrong in this, and those of us who value the accurate simulation of physical reality dislike the unrealistically-difficult about as much as we dislike unrealistically-easy.

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Really?... Really? I think that like everyone else would disagree with that... I mean if that's honestly how you feel I don't really think I can take your argeuments seriously. Because it is quite obvious that more sway makes shooting harder... or am I misunderstanding you.

Coulum I keep trying to reply and it just edits my last post lol

I don't feel any more challenged by the sway - I've said this a few times now, it simply breaks the immersion and enjoyment of playing because it is annoying and due to my experience, it is unrealistic.

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Coulum I keep trying to reply and it just edits my last post lol

I don't feel any more challenged by the sway - I've said this a few times now, it simply breaks the immersion and enjoyment of playing because it is annoying and due to my experience, it is unrealistic.

Hehe yes I can see that.

Honestly man there is huge disconnect there. I think you are one of only people that doesn't find the sway any harder to control and shoot through. It is totally possible to overcome, but not with the same ease. To be quite blunt, I just don't believe you when you say it is not any more difficult. Sorry, but it seems that you are just making this up to justify your argument that sway serves no purpose. Even the people that agree that sway is unrealistic are saying that it makes things more difficult. I hope you understand why I am sceptical. Of course if you can prove it, well, I guess you win. But even then you are the only one. For most everyone else it does make things more difficult and thus does serve a purpose.

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Really? There are lots of videos on youtube showing people that have no problems at all with it, including the dsi guy...

I never said it serves no purpose. I've been saying it is annoying and it is too much horizontal. There is the disconnect, you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

The first day of 1.24 I got on my server and performed perfectly fine with the new sway, it just left me feeling like ArmA turned into a gimmicky game and was going away from milsim.

Edited by Rath

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^

Coulum I keep trying to reply and it just edits my last post lol

I don't feel any more challenged by the sway - I've said this a few times now, it simply breaks the immersion and enjoyment of playing because it is annoying and due to my experience, it is unrealistic.

What am I misundertanding? Like I said it is still possible to overcome more sway (like in the youtube vids), but it is more of a challenge. Based on the bolded you seem not to think so. You come across as if no matter what sway the time and effort you need to use is the same. thus it serves no purpose. Sorry if I am being an idiot, but on one hand you say it adds no challenge, and yet on the other you say that it does serve a prupose. Which is it. Does it make shooting harder or does it not?

I never said it serves no purpose.
So what purpose is that?

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Obviously it serves a purpose because other people enjoy it and it adds to the challenge to them. I find it annoying instead of challenging. What is so hard to understand about that?

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I am asking you two simple questions. do you find it more challenging and what purpose, if any, does sway serve to you?

Don't mean to be asking 21 questions but you are being unclear about your own personal feelings on the matter. If you feel that the sway is not challenging at all and serves no prupose (to you personally) see post 181:

To be quite blunt, I just don't believe you when you say it is not any more difficult. Sorry, but it seems that you are just making this up to justify your argument that sway serves no purpose. Even the people that agree that sway is unrealistic are saying that it makes things more difficult. I hope you understand why I am sceptical.

If it does add challenge and has purpose see post 176:

So when the sway was minimized and we are now able to easily hit targets at 2200 metres you don't think that is any less realistic than the stable sway where it was at least a bit of a challenge to hit targets at 1500 mteres. Please have an open mind. Are you really going to tell me that the sway doesn't produce any more realistic results. I am trying to work with you here...

Either the sway produces more realistic results - as in time to line up shots and accuracy of shots. Or it doesn't. I believe the former. You tell me which you believe.

If you agree with me even a bit about realistic results, maybe we can work together to brainstorm a system that achieves the realistic results I want and the non annoying sway you want.

Edited by -Coulum-

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No, I don't find it more challenging. Carry less stuff, manage your stamina, and get used to the sway...

When the sway is mostly vertical like it is in real life, it has a purpose to me.

You seem to think that I want it to be just removed completely... nope. I have been saying all along that I simply want an option for single players or server admins to tweak it from horizontal to vertical.

Did you miss my post about ballistics being unrealistic and that is why the 1500-2200 meter shots are so easy?

---------- Post added at 05:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 AM ----------

I do agree with you about the results actually and I think its cool that Bohemia is trying to make long range engagements more challenging I just don't agree with the way they are doing it.

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If people want to play that way and like it that's awesome and I respect that, but my group we did that before this system because we crank the difficulty up and have assigned roles. Honestly though even at close range it is annoying. Like I've said before its not any more challenging its more of an annoyance.

I mean, it's cool that you guys played that way before and everything, but you could have played like that in BF4 if you wanted, that doesn't mean BF4 has realistic gameplay. The question that Coulum and a I are asking is whether or not you feel like the increased weapon sway encourages others to play like that. And if it does, I would argue that it's having a net positive effect on the gameplay, and should remain in the game. Groups that played like that before and don't play PVP or whatever can mod it out, right?

The thing about making it an option is that it's no longer encouraging players to play like we're talking about and we're essentially back to a situation where the kind of gameplay tactics that the increased sway encourages are entirely voluntary.

People can hit that far because the ballistics system in ArmA 3 isn't realistic enough to prevent it. There are a lot of things that have to go right to hit something from that far even with a stabilized sniper platform. Certain addons help a lot with this.

Yeah, but some of the most important things that have to go right, and some of the things that are most often wrong (from an unstabilized position), are hold and trigger pull. How do you deal with that in a video game? At some point we have to have some form of approximation of that if we want to have realistically challenging long range shooting.

We're also getting some of those more challenging aspects of long range shooting in the Marksman DLC, but that is several months away at minimum. Perhaps the heavy sway is a decent stopgap until then?

Really? There are lots of videos on youtube showing people that have no problems at all with it, including the dsi guy...

Yeah, this is the where some of the misunderstanding is. People like dsiOne and myself aren't saying that it isn't more challenging. We're saying that the challenge isn't insurmountable like some others are claiming it to be. We* were responding to people like SillyWabbit and HAseOne who kept claiming that the new sway made it impossible to hit anything anymore. Specifically, to cases where people kept posting videos of their weapon swaying and saying, "How can I possibly be expected to shoot targets like this?" We posted examples (mine was of my own gameplay) to show that it is still possible to shoot targets with the new sway, it's just more difficult and takes more effort. If it didn't make any effective difference in how the game played out I doubt either of us would care about it at all.

*Obviously I can't really speak to exactly how dsiOne feels, but this is the impression I got from his posts.

edit:

You seem to think that I want it to be just removed completely... nope. I have been saying all along that I simply want an option for single players or server admins to tweak it from horizontal to vertical.

We're probably just having a misunderstanding then, because, personally, I got the impression that you thought the sway was excessive.

Edited by roshnak

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You seem to think that I want it to be just removed completely... nope. I have been saying all along that I simply want an option for single players or server admins to tweak it from horizontal to vertical.

But why? If it doesn't add any challenge or difficulty to you what is the point of even having it besides to look pretty. This is where I am confused. If it doesn't add challenge or difficulty, why do you even want it (vertical or horizontal)?

Did you miss my post about ballistics being unrealistic and that is why the 1500-2200 meter shots are so easy?

Ah. Correct environmental effects would shorten those ranges down. But it wouldn't make the actual process of aiming any harder. Take for example a shot at 800 metres. It is easy to adjust your zero to account for wind. Wind won't blow your shot more than a foot or so, if even. Now that that is done, you can sit down and plink away with the same ease as right now without wind. This is proven by ace. It had basic wind and it was still very easy to account for and shoot at ridiculous ranges. In reality a shot at 800 metres still takes a great bit of concentration and effort, even on a windless day, would you not agree. But with the decreased sway that is not so much the case ingame.

TL: DR. Lack of environmental effects on ballistics is part of the reason that such unrealistic shots are possible but I don't think it is the big reason. The big reason is that the process of keeping your sights on target ingame is alot more difficult in real life. Agree/disagree?

---------- Post added at 02:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 AM ----------

The thing about making it an option is that it's no longer encouraging players to play like we're talking about and we're essentially back to a situation where the kind of gameplay tactics that the increased sway encourages are entirely voluntary.

Don't rule out options. I don't want to force anyone to play anyway. At the same time though I don't expect BI to make ten different versions of sway to satisfy every player. I want to try and find a system that achieves the result I want and the immersion someone like Rath wants.

People can hit that far because the ballistics system in ArmA 3 isn't realistic enough to prevent it. There are a lot of things that have to go right to hit something from that far even with a stabilized sniper platform. Certain addons help a lot with this.
Yeah, but some of the most important things that have to go right, and some of the things that are most often wrong (from an unstabilized position), are hold and trigger pull. How do you deal with that in a video game? At some point we have to have some form of approximation of that if we want to have realistically challenging long range shooting.

Yes Roshnak summed it up even better than I. Environmental effects are only small portion of what can go wrong that isn't represented in game. Alot is downto human error. How do we represent that without using exaggerated sway (especially for someone like you since you say the sway has no effect on your ability to aim).

---------- Post added at 02:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 AM ----------

I do agree with you about the results actually and I think its cool that Bohemia is trying to make long range engagements more challenging I just don't agree with the way they are doing it.

AHH! That there is what I have been trying to get out of you all night long! But what do you think could be changed to achieve the challenge with out that gimmicky feeling. Simply decreasing the sway makes things to easy. Maybe increasse speed and decrease radius of sway? Other way around? Maybe have sway in perfectly straight line instead of arcs. Any thoughts? Maybe hold breath should be tweaked somehow. I am all ears!

I am not against making the sway more vertical like you suggest but I have a feeling that it will lead to the same amount of "gimmickyness" as what we have in 1.24 stable, unless its intensity is also lowered (making it too easy). Anyhow I am going to sleep on it. Thanks for putting up with me Rath

Edited by -Coulum-

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I mean, it's cool that you guys played that way before and everything, but you could have played like that in BF4 if you wanted, that doesn't mean BF4 has realistic gameplay. The question that Coulum and a I are asking is whether or not you feel like the increased weapon sway encourages others to play like that. And if it does, I would argue that it's having a net positive effect on the gameplay, and should remain in the game. Groups that played like that before and don't play PVP or whatever can mod it out, right?

I don't know for sure how many groups are doing things now, but I'd assume that the majority of the vanilla non-PVP groups have lowered the difficulty to adapt since the Ai is still just as accurate. That is just my opinion of what I think they would do.

I hope it remains in the game actually because I enjoy the stamina system and I have it modified to the point now where the sway is fairly realistic on my server.

The thing about making it an option is that it's no longer encouraging players to play like we're talking about and we're essentially back to a situation where the kind of gameplay tactics that the increased sway encourages are entirely voluntary.

What is wrong with people having a choice? If they want to play multiplayer they are at the whim of the server admin on whether or not the sway is one way or another. The beauty of PC gaming is the freedom of choice we have to play how we want to.

Yeah, but some of the most important things that have to go right, and some of the things that are most often wrong (from an unstabilized position), are hold and trigger pull. How do you deal with that in a video game? At some point we have to have some form of approximation of that if we want to have realistically challenging long range shooting.

Ok, I understand. Is that a PVP thing? See the thing is my guys know that if they sit prone 1km away from an AO sniping, they will be spotted pretty quick due to increased Ai skill and killed if they don't use cover, tactics, move between shots, and be smart.

We're also getting some of those more challenging aspects of long range shooting in the Marksman DLC, but that is several months away at minimum. Perhaps the heavy sway is a decent stopgap until then?

Alright cool, but people will still find a way around it and play how they want until then.

Yeah, this is the where some of the misunderstanding is. People like dsiOne and myself aren't saying that it isn't more challenging. We're saying that the challenge isn't insurmountable like some others are claiming it to be. We* were responding to people like SillyWabbit and HAseOne who kept claiming that the new sway made it impossible to hit anything anymore. Specifically, to cases where people kept posting videos of their weapon swaying and saying, "How can I possibly be expected to shoot targets like this?" We posted examples (mine was of my own gameplay) to show that it is still possible to shoot targets with the new sway, it's just more difficult and takes more effort. If it didn't make any effective difference in how the game played out I doubt either of us would care about it at all.

*Obviously I can't really speak to exactly how dsiOne feels, but this is the impression I got from his posts.

We're probably just having a misunderstanding then, because, personally, I got the impression that you thought the sway was excessive.

I think it is excessive in the horizontal direction is all.

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Don't rule out options. I don't want to force anyone to play anyway. At the same time though I don't expect BI to make ten different versions of sway to satisfy every player. I want to try and find a system that achieves the result I want and the immersion someone like Rath wants.

I don't know, I just feel like this is exactly the kind of thing mods are good for.

Having different levels of weapon sway depending on what server you join is the kind of thing that I could see causing a lot of confusion and angry posts about bugs. I think it's best not to make people learn two different shooting styles within the game.

On the other hand, if he literally just wants the current sway to be flipped on its side, I'd be open to just outright changing it to be that way. That's the kind of thing that's more aesthetic than anything. My primary concern is the effect it has on gameplay, which is to make it so that snipers have to be putting in more effort than what they did before the patch. Although, I have to say, I'm still finding a lot of references to sights tracing a sideways figure-eight when shooting offhand. I mean, it's all anecdotal evidence, but so is Rath's, and it's basically making me think that it could have a lot to do with the individual shooter.

What is wrong with people having a choice? If they want to play multiplayer they are at the whim of the server admin on whether or not the sway is one way or another. The beauty of PC gaming is the freedom of choice we have to play how we want to.

Ok, I understand. Is that a PVP thing? See the thing is my guys know that if they sit prone 1km away from an AO sniping, they will be spotted pretty quick due to increased Ai skill and killed if they don't use cover, tactics, move between shots, and be smart.

The first part is mostly answered in the first section of this post. I think that changing this kind of gameplay mechanic is best left to mods. While I agree that freedom of choice is one of the things that makes Arma great, many of those cool gameplay changing things have historically been mods. And I don't think the changes in this particular mechanic would be transparent enough to prevent a great deal of confusion without some sort of obnoxious notice telling you what had been changed. It's not like 3rd person or crosshairs where people can immediately tell that those things just don't work.

From a game design perspective I also think it's not great, since it makes people form two different muscle memories for dealing with sway, which can be confusing and annoying for the player in a different way.

As for the second thing: Yeah, it's primarily a PvP thing, although I would argue that it can be bad in co-op as well. It's possible to shoot at AI from outside the range that they will shoot back, although that distance keeps going up with each game.

Alright cool, but people will still find a way around it and play how they want until then.

Well, the way around it is to get good at countering the sway and develop those skills, which I'm fine with. My problem with the previous system was that there wasn't that much skill involved in long range shooting. If it's harder to shoot at me, then when I killed in one shot from 1.5 km away (honestly, probably more like 800 meters), at least I know that player had some degree of skill and had to work at killing me a little harder. Moreso than pre-patch, anyway. I just don't like the best and easiest option for killing people to be grabbing the biggest possible gun and hiding on a hill well outside the combat area.

Edited by roshnak

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But why? If it doesn't add any challenge or difficulty to you what is the point of even having it besides to look pretty. This is where I am confused. If it doesn't add challenge or difficulty, why do you even want it (vertical or horizontal)?

Because it does add a challenge for some people and I like that ArmA is challenging. It is an amazing game and an absolute gem of the PC gaming world. If there wasn't any sway at all ever (like if the weapon never even moved), even when standing unsupported while fatigued, it would be too easy and boring.

Ah. Correct environmental effects would shorten those ranges down. But it wouldn't make the actual process of aiming any harder. Take for example a shot at 800 metres. It is easy to adjust your zero to account for wind. Wind won't blow your shot more than a foot or so, if even. Now that that is done, you can sit down and plink away with the same ease as right now without wind. This is proven by ace. It had basic wind and it was still very easy to account for and shoot at ridiculous ranges. In reality a shot at 800 metres still takes a great bit of concentration and effort, even on a windless day, would you not agree. But with the decreased sway that is not so much the case ingame.

I agree - though there are some mods out there that do make long range shots challenging by having to adjust for wind/humidity/curvature.

TL: DR. Lack of environmental effects on ballistics is part of the reason that such unrealistic shots are possible but I don't think it is the big reason. The big reason is that the process of keeping your sights on target ingame is alot more difficult in real life. Agree/disagree?

On a moving target it is more difficult yes. Shooting stationary targets is easy once you know what you are doing.

AHH! That there is what I have been trying to get out of you all night long! But what do you think could be changed to achieve the challenge with out that gimmicky feeling. Simply decreasing the sway makes things to easy. Maybe increasse speed and decrease radius of sway? Other way around? Maybe have sway in perfectly straight line instead of arcs. Any thoughts? Maybe hold breath should be tweaked somehow. I am all ears!

I think I wrote about it in #165 or so...

Weapon shake when holding your weapon up for too long, increased vertical sway when stamina is low (fatigued)...

Slight weapon shake when shot at to simulate adrenaline. Some addons do this already.

Weapon shake if you hold your breath too long for a second or two.

Maybe for sniper rifles have a trigger squeeze bar or something where you have to hold down the mouse and a bar goes to the right then back and you have to release it in the middle on a mark, kinda like a golfing game. Totally like a minigame and not something I endorse, LOL, but it might be fun for people who like to play as snipers.

I am not against making the sway more vertical like you suggest but I have a feeling that it will lead to the same amount of "gimmickyness" as what we have in 1.24 stable, unless its intensity is also lowered (making it too easy). Anyhow I am going to sleep on it. Thanks for putting up with me Rath

I understand. I'm honestly not trying to get it removed, and I've enjoyed our discussions.

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I don't know, I just feel like this is exactly the kind of thing mods are good for.

Having different levels of weapon sway depending on what server you join is the kind of thing that I could see causing a lot of confusion and angry posts about bugs. I think it's best not to make people learn two different shooting styles within the game.

On the other hand, if he literally just wants the current sway to be flipped on its side, I'd be open to just outright changing it to be that way. That's the kind of thing that's more aesthetic than anything. My primary concern is the effect it has on gameplay, which is to make it so that snipers have to be putting in more effort than what they did before the patch. Although, I have to say, I'm still finding a lot of references to sights tracing a sideways figure-eight when shooting offhand. I mean, it's all anecdotal evidence, but so is Rath's, and it's basically making me think that it could down to the individual shooter.

Yep agreed. Like I said I dont expect nor want BIS making ten different weapon sway. But I definitely do not feel the desire to force anyone to play anything. It is ideal to find a system tht works for everyone though.

Well, the way around it is to get good at countering the sway and develop those skills, which I'm fine with. My problem with the previous system was that there wasn't that much skill involved in long range shooting. If it's harder to shoot at me, then when I killed in one shot from 1.5 km away (honestly, probably more like 800 meters), at least I know that player had some degree of skill and had to work at killing me a little harder. Moreso than pre-patch, anyway. I just don't like the best and easiest option for killing people to be grabbing the biggest possible gun and hiding on a hill well outside the combat area.

Yes pretty much. At least I know they deserved th kill for the outstanding shot or I deserved to die for exposing myself for far to long. As it is now though I can be playing using real procedures to avoid being shot (I up he sees me I'm down) and the other guy can be a piss poor shot and yet even at 800 mmetres I am the one who suffers. From what I gather that is not how firefights go down.

Like Roshnak I am not opposed to vertical sway. I just don't want all my misses to be above or below, and none to be side to side because in reality I miss side to side as well.

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I don't know, I just feel like this is exactly the kind of thing mods are good for.

True, and I've already done that for my group. There just isn't anything (yet) that squeezes the sway in more vertically.

Having different levels of weapon sway depending on what server you join is the kind of thing that I could see causing a lot of confusion and angry posts about bugs. I think it's best not to make people learn two different shooting styles within the game.

True, and I've mostly been speaking from the perspective of a small private community. I wouldn't want it to hurt the ArmA 3 community as a whole.

On the other hand, if he literally just wants the current sway to be flipped on its side, I'd be open to just outright changing it to be that way. That's the kind of thing that's more aesthetic than anything. My primary concern is the effect it has on gameplay, which is to make it so that snipers have to be putting in more effort than what they did before the patch. Although, I have to say, I'm still finding a lot of references to sights tracing a sideways figure-eight when shooting offhand. I mean, it's all anecdotal evidence, but so is Rath's, and it's basically making me think that it could have a lot to do with the individual shooter.

I've never known anyone that made a sideways figure 8... asked a few friends who have also been shooting a long time. They all agree that its 80-90% vertical sway. When I shoot unsupported I can only describe the sway as a "cats eye" pattern.

edit: By "cats eye" I mean like when a cat is looking at a light, its pupil narrows to a thin vertical "slit."

Well, the way around it is to get good at countering the sway and develop those skills, which I'm fine with. My problem with the previous system was that there wasn't that much skill involved in long range shooting. If it's harder to shoot at me, then when I killed in one shot from 1.5 km away (honestly, probably more like 800 meters), at least I know that player had some degree of skill and had to work at killing me a little harder. Moreso than pre-patch, anyway. I just don't like the best and easiest option for killing people to be grabbing the biggest possible gun and hiding on a hill well outside the combat area.

Sniping has been a problem in all shooter games...

Edited by Rath

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Real-life "weapon sway" is more of a trembling than a sway, anyway. You can see this by holding a ~10 lb. log in front of you, like a rifle, and looking down the top of it as though you were aiming it. It doesn't wander around much, it simply shakes a bit on a tiny scale -- we aren't even talking millimeters of motion, but like half a millimeter deviation.

I have to say, when I am trying to counteracting the sway in game, in kind of ended up like trembling. But like Rath said, I think if the sway is more vertical than horizontal would probably make much more sense

spending some time getting the feel of the sway, it isn't hard to hit a man at 500m while crouching, and hit a man at 1km while prone, all with a MX and RCO

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Yeah with enableFatigue false right? I chose not to disable the fatigue and just fix the sway.

I have the exaggerated sway fixed on my own server but the fatigue is still on because the movement speed effects are pretty cool. We were just discussing how to make the sway better...

Fair point m8.

I have been leaving it all alone and trying to adapt myself.

I must admit having to walk through a town with weapon down until contact is hard to get used to :p

I removed the carryall backpack from our VAS to stop some of the excessive amounts of crap people can carry, might put it back and let them learn from experience :)

Edited by BL1P

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In real life , you close one eye and look through the scope, there could be a sense of your peripheral view darkening with a heart beat rhythm audio cue to control your shot. The sun shine or glare should be removed and the scopes should feel magnified not just zoomed in.

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So when the sway was minimized and we are now able to easily hit targets at 2200 metres you don't think that is any less realistic than the stable sway where it was at least a bit of a challenge to hit targets at 1500 mteres. Please have an open mind. Are you really going to tell me that the sway doesn't produce any more realistic results. I am trying to work with you here...

Instead of introducing annoying and big RNG sway, to counter that, they can implement wind affecting ballistics, like ACE2 did in Arma 2. A good and realistic mechanic, that make the game more challenging and funny. I always played Arma 2 with ACE almost only for wind ballistics and weapon resting,there are other cool features int the mod, but those two are really game changer features.

But I guess is easier for the developers to move the scope like crazy to avoid easy long range kills, in my opinion that is very shoddy. They can experiment with it, but is a mistake to public release this tweak without having at least weapon resting in the game.

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I think BIS made the first version way ott on purpose and knew they would tone it down after all the complaints. They set the bar higher than they wanted so they could set it where the really wanted it.

I also agree with Down8, The perfect and most obvious way to make this more acceptable to the community would have been to include weapon resting at the same time....I mean, it seems so freaking obvious. They could have appeased most of the people complaining simply by doing this. But apparently they didn't realise that? Or they think that the vague rumour of weapon resting being in the next DLC might be enough to appease people? It boggles the mind trying to figure out their logic some times.

Regards this new fatigue overall? I am a coop player and I think its interesting. To be honest I find being forced to walk more annoying than the sway. But it is not as bad as I had thought it might be. I think they should make it easier to disable. I feel it should be included in the difficulty settings and not an init line in the editor. But I have always said as long as the fatigue is not Forced and we have way to turn it off, I think it can be interesting addition. It's the same as with the ACE mod, I enjoyed the hardcore realism, but not all the time. I still like the game play style you could have on fast coops, with minor restricted movement and the standard OFP/arma2 type Fatigue. These where still way more hardcore then most other shooters....And lended itself well to public coop missions. EG, you could run to that chopper and get on before it took off without you or before the MHQ was undeployed etc. Telling people who liked this type of game play.."bring less equipment" etc/"manage your fatigue", is missing the point.

Anyone who doesn't want to accept that a large portion of the community liked playing in this style is not worth debating with. You have to remember this is huge change in the game play style of the series.

Edited by -=seany=-

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I've never known anyone that made a sideways figure 8... asked a few friends who have also been shooting a long time. They all agree that its 80-90% vertical sway. When I shoot unsupported I can only describe the sway as a "cats eye" pattern.

edit: By "cats eye" I mean like when a cat is looking at a light, its pupil narrows to a thin vertical "slit."

I can link you to references, if you want. I doubt it would change your mind, though, since that's apparently not what you're experiencing.

Sniping has been a problem in all shooter games...

I agree.

There are some shooters that balance snipers fine, although, they tend to be significantly less realistic games.

Instead of introducing annoying and big RNG sway, to counter that, they can implement wind affecting ballistics, like ACE2 did in Arma 2. A good and realistic mechanic, that make the game more challenging and funny. I always played Arma 2 with ACE almost only for wind ballistics and weapon resting,there are other cool features int the mod, but those two are really game changer features.

But I guess is easier for the developers to move the scope like crazy to avoid easy long range kills, in my opinion that is very shoddy. They can experiment with it, but is a mistake to public release this tweak without having at least weapon resting in the game.

Sway is not random. It's a pattern that you can learn to control or compensate for. That's the exact opposite of "RNG."

Proper implementation of windage would be significantly more random than sway alone, since it's entirely possible for the wind to change suddenly or be different downrange of you (especially at the long distances that are possible in Arma 3).

Edited by roshnak

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Some good videos from PepperBelly about the sway and weapon sway:

Those show that it's manageable. It's more about the AI super accuracy and the body armour that turns people off. That's why I can really understand why these new systems can really make people angry and BIS really should address those two, at least the AI.

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