Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
zapat

Black Rain Project [SP experience]

What do you think of the new GetTactical View?  

69 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think of the new GetTactical View?

    • Great! This is what ARMA SP gaming needs!
      47
    • Good, but only for rare, special occasions.
      10
    • Good, but I won't use it.
      4
    • I don't see how could it be useful.
      1
    • The vid didn't make me want to try it. So I dunno.
      3


Recommended Posts

Sorry Zapat for not being specific, the mission starts everytime at the improvised airstrip on the desert lake and your scripts doesn´t start so I don´t have the tutorial neither the GetTactical hud, in other words the mission doesn´t start, it´s a dud... probably cus it´s a script heavy mission, I guess that even the city we have to investigate is kinda random, right? So some mod is blocking the initialization of your script... I bet that is MCC or maybe TPW mods, as both are also script heavy...

I´ll try the mission again without them but using other mods (like Tao´s folding Map, jumpmf, ZAM glasses, etc)

cheers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do hope you can get over it and you dont get frustrated. If you want to contribute a little, you can help me nail the tutorial.

What is the most confusing part/sentence?

While the tutorial was rather straight forward, personally I derped out and have been stuck for a bit where you have to give a waypoint with correct speed-mode, unit-position and orientation. Speed-mode and orientation was no problem, since that's very intuitive; you move/drag the mouse and immediately understand the indications and what affects them.

However it took me a minute or two to figure out that I could select the unit-position with the mouse-wheel - DOH!

Most likely I didn't listen careful enough. But the problem is this: while you repeatedly tell the user what his current task is (give a specific waypoint) - and you even tell what's still missing/wrong (cool beans :cool:) - you miss to also tell the user how the actually do this!

Thus - when you tell a user that task again, why not also have some hint/text-display, where each relevant key(s)/action is explained (again). Maybe such a text could also be put under the mission notes of the tutorial and it could include a legend showing all the options too (< = slow, << = normal, <<< = fast, ... wait, or wasn't << fast already? :o).

And maybe you could think about better symbols/images instead of the text-symbols (you might have your reasons for using a text-only solution though...).

All in all I can see this (interface) to be perfect for more tactical missions, maybe a bit à la Jagged Alliance or Commandos. But I'm not totally convinced, that the decision to freeze time to program/command your AI-loons is justified. Not only because it makes it impossible to use your tool for MP-scenarios, but also because that switch from realtime ingame to frozen ingame feels a bit awkward. Then again, this might be just a question of getting used to it (JA, Commandos or Fallout 3's tactical shooting all worked lovely too...). And the alternative would be programming/commanding waypoints on the map-screen (I guess - because of "visual cheating") - which probably wasn't your goal to begin with.

Otherwise this (scenario) looks really good, but I can't tell much more yet for the lack of playing (pretty much immediately got killed by the welcome commitee inserted by one of those heli-teams.. :().

Then, at the debriefing (after having choosen the campaign mode), I tried to "restart" the mission and I landed in the salt desert, unarmed and without anything. I had to exit the scenario for good and "restart" it from the mission-selection screen (and select campaign mode again - which I couldn't as I tried to restart from the debriefing) to make it start up and initialize correctly again.

Oh, and maybe this: I think you can do without an exact/visual timer for deadly injured units. Just mark them to be in "agony" as to module in A2 did, and you can keep the rest (and what affects this time). But the player doesn't have to know an exact time when a unit is going to die for good - why should he?

Tweak on!

:cool:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, this is awesome, no, it is a true revelation! Very intuitive! Can you please get yourself hired by BIS so we can have this in the next A3 patch?^^

btw., just like CSClevenger, I also stumbled over the stance change in the tutorial, had to look here in the thread to learn that it is the mousewheel movement. I don't know if it was said in the tutorial, but if so, this detail obviously slips attention too easily.

Had no time yet to try more than the tut.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not gonna lie. This looks fucking amazing.

---------- Post added at 08:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------

Hey, I found a game crippling bug: When I switched to another unit and tried to open his inventory with shift+i, it opened for half a second then immediately closed, but the guy was stuck in the inventory animation and I couldn't do anything else. I couldn't re-open the inventory, open the getTactical interface, move, or do ANYTHING other than select other team members and give orders, but since my view was stuck, that didn't matter. I'll test some more and report back if I can or can't duplicate the issue. Only mods I'm running are JSRS and CBA

edit: I couldn't duplicate the bug. I think there are a whole lot of cool things in this mod/mission man. I hope you iron out all the bugs and do well in MANW

Edited by MacScottie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
while you repeatedly tell the user what his current task is (give a specific waypoint) - and you even tell what's still missing/wrong (cool beans :cool:) - you miss to also tell the user how the actually do this!

Thanks Rübe: noted. I am adding some advanced hints with the HOW.

And maybe you could think about better symbols/images instead of the text-symbols (you might have your reasons for using a text-only solution though...).

Yes, I have the reasons. But those are overcomeable if you guys think that icons are nneded. Although I think that >>> explains speed well enough, so there is only the poses left, which can be got used to pretty fast. Icons would steal a lot of screen space imho...

(interface) to be perfect for more tactical missions, ... But I'm not totally convinced, that the decision to freeze time to program/command your AI-loons is justified. Not only because it makes it impossible to use your tool for MP-scenarios, but also because that switch from realtime ingame to frozen ingame feels a bit awkward.

Sir I hope this can be the root of a longer conversation. What you now see actually created itself. This is the result of many solutions to an arising new problem. I started with one goal: to make tactical playing enjoyable. Controlling a team IS tactical. Not the mission. And you supposed to do this in Arma, and this is why I love this game. But this is currently not possible: you cannot think in teams, only an independent unit.

So I started with the 3D move commands, the dir, speed, pose came pretty fast after.

Then the next problem came. ONE thinking person controls 5 non-thinkers. So you are linear instead of parallel in a timing sensitive environment without the situational awareness of all your units. You just can't be fast enough. So let's make it RTS style, with a camera to give awareness. But then you can cheat, since you can use it to get unfair advantages. So I needed to hide the enemy, and mission specific objects. This led to the need of time freezing. Which is awkward indeed, but I didn't find better and it is usuable.

got killed by the welcome commitee inserted by one of those heli-teams.. :().

Well that is a very rare occurence, as they should deploy like arond 200-300 meters min from you.

I landed in the salt desert, unarmed and without anything.

Known issue and being worked on. Desert unit is the pre-script part: so the init hasn't even started.


;2734649']the mission doesn´t start' date=' it´s a dud... probably cus it´s a script heavy mission,[/quote']

Yes, it is script ONLY. :)

Your problem indicates that the init couldn't finish. The showing of the start menu means that the init was successful. Probably I'll enable some of the debug lines so that you guys can see where it is stuck. I'll look into it...


- When I switched to another unit and tried to open his inventory with shift+i' date=' it opened for half a second then immediately closed[/quote']

Seems like an official bug. I use the SwitchTo command, and nothing else should interfere with default gear menu.


is possible to repeat a instruction in the tutorial?

Nope. I could make such though: how do you think it should look like? (a repeat last instruction button somewhere?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey zapat, are you still thinking about an MP version? Obviously there would be no time freeze but I don't see that as a problem. Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kremator: sure I do. I will release a quite configurable addon version for both MP and sP

You guys need to accept though, that my priority is the contest right now: which means finishing the campaign by september and then iron the bugs until last day.

THEN I will start working on the addon version while providing support for this mission. I have way too many long term goals (like making a full RTS gamemode as well) These just cost time, and that I have way too little.

Of course a good contest result can rearrange my long term schedule as well. :D

Seriously, I am doing it for fun I just have many ideas, and I enjoy too see them getting real.

Edited by zapat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sure I do. I will release a quite configurable addon version for both MP and sP

drool. Can't wait! That's one of the things I mention in the video review I did on Black Rain today!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This video is great ! It really shows off what GetTactical can do.

Zapat, are you planning on adding a 'stacking' capability for multiple units against walls ?

Keep coding mate ... you will be getting my vote !

PS now imagine this with tanks/aircraft/boats .... DROOL CENTRAL !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question about the Get Tactical View:

I usually split my men into teams. In the Get Tactical View can I give movement and stance commands to teams instead of just single soldiers? Would really help speeding up things if you can give commands to red and blue instead of all the soldiers individually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DayGlow: it's in the to-do-list, as I do this a lot myself. ETA unknown.

Currently you can select more units by Ctrl-Click, and give them the same order. Problem is they love to clip into each other. :)

Do you have good ideas how to best do this? (interfacewise) Is ctrl-click select okay, or should I go with something deeper? I'd go with the latter but I don't have any good ideas how to integrate this intuitively into the current setup. I may put some color coded little buttons next to the current commandbar and alll the selected units could go into that team, then any unit from that team would select the whole team...

MacScottie:

Huge thanks for the video and the comments! Its an enormous help for me to see somebody else playing, so I can see where I fail.

Two things to note:

1. not only control, but AI itself can be wonky in ARMA: I am trying my best to provide an as-good-as-possible experience, but it will always fail in some situtuations. (eg your unit going into the house instead of staying outside) I many times found a good solution (eg. the SHIFT-CLICK waypoint placer won't let you place waypoints too close to walls to prevent this), but there are places where all my ideas fail miserably.

2. currently this is available in a mission only and not as a mod.

-This will be only 1 feature of the scenario. I am planning to make a new level of experience in SP gaming, with more features (eg. The Fast travel, and the unit feats you cannot still see) but these hopefully will give something to the overall scenario making it a WHOLE. I know its hard to grab as most of you (and me too!!) think in mods and/or missions.

My plan is to create an experience as a whole first and THEN make certain parts available as scripts and mods. I target SP because thats what I play. And I am extremely bored of the missions that gives you the visual bangs and voice acting and whatnot, but the same dull experience where I am always left with the feeling of the POTENTIAL instead of the EXPERIENCE.

Does this make sense? :) Or am I some kind of mad scientist? :)

-I need expereince with mods and MP gameplay (currently I have none in these fields). This will take some time, but I know what you need, becasue I need it too. :) So I'll make it sooner or later.

If somebody can offer me some help with this I'd appreciate it. But I will handle it myself as well I guess.

+1 This is a project under construction: stuff will be ironed (like unit missing armor and more options)

I'll look into the bugs you guys encounter (like not being able to give the 1-1 follow command)

Edited by zapat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(eg. the SHIFT-CLICK waypoint placer won't let you place waypoints too close to walls to prevent this)

Ahh is that when it turns red? Was that why my guys were refusing to move? I probably should have figured that out on my own but when I saw that I had already been playing for over an hour and missed it. Maybe put an extra part with a ruined building in the tutorial to show that sometimes you can't tell your guys to go certain places and it is visible by the red waypoint marker? Maybe even add an indicator in the non-waypoint mode to see if your unit will go to an area? A little green or red dot?

so I can see where I fail.

And where you succeed :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, great mod. I was just talking about these issues in a video and here is a possible solution, very intuitive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MacScottie: There are three types of icons near a building:

-the green shield: the position is outside and close to a wall

-the red roof: a building position (default buildingpos, most probably inside). Since there are only a few inside a house the markers will jump while in the house.

-the grey block: position is too close to the wall, last good position will be used.

The unis refusing to move is a default AI limitation. No matter what I try, there are situations, when they don't move. I need to figure something out for this. I just can't make them totally brainless, not even for a move only.

So what you are talking about is the latter I guess. My system won't freeze/exclude/not-let a unit's move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't try this mission, but just a quick observation on Jester's video.

At some point we can see that the AI refuse to regroup and follow the player. This is an A3 issue - not an issue with the mission.

If the player' status is set on "wait", the AI will consider that a Stop order has been issued. The only way to cancel that is to open the radio menu and set the player on "Ready".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is the issue of the mod too, since - because of the many unit switches and/or some solutions of the outside view - the played units may stuck in wait mode more. I need to make sure this can't happen.

If you switch to a unit, move manually - then he will follow you after switching away from him...

Of course I use default commands exclusively for moving units (no tricks here. Only trick is with the separate hold fire command), so BIS bugs don't help too much. :)

I need to investigate more, but I am not at home this week, so solutions are to be expected next week soonest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DayGlow: it's in the to-do-list, as I do this a lot myself. ETA unknown.

Currently you can select more units by Ctrl-Click, and give them the same order. Problem is they love to clip into each other. :)

Do you have good ideas how to best do this? (interfacewise) Is ctrl-click select okay, or should I go with something deeper? I'd go with the latter but I don't have any good ideas how to integrate this intuitively into the current setup. I may put some color coded little buttons next to the current commandbar and alll the selected units could go into that team, then any unit from that team would select the whole team...

not sure. They changed the interface from Arma where you could select a team color from the team menu, which royally fucked up my voice command file for the game. I've never got around to figuring it out since then.

not it sure how missions designers do it, but there are times when squads are split and your told to 'follow 2'. If some how you could make units subordinates of another so giving the head unit a move command and all of the other subordinate units are in a follow state then it would work. Not sure how stance would work though.

Edited by DayGlow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ zapat

I finally played your mission (excellent !) and this GetTactical View is pure awesome ! :)

BI should hire you, thats all i have to say !

Voted for it on MANW, this needs to win because its the best thing that can possible happen to ArmA SP.

Things i noticed:

- Is it not possible to order your group to "return to fomation" ? They dont follow me anymore.

- Maybe a keyboard key would be better for holding to look around that the middle mouse button, i always fells a bit awkward using it (pressing the mouse wheel).

Edited by Wiggum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Wiggum

Allright guys, I am back home so I can start working on the bugs!

MacScottie: I couldn't reproduce your error about the units not following you. It works fine with me. Although I got an error from another part of the mission (it comes up only with 6 units): so it might have been the problem. Do you have show errors turned on?

Opps, I found it. It was a nasty bug (causing a lot of turmoil), not a missing feature :) It is now fixed. And miraculously the units are not stopped now: just as you (and me too) felt it the best. Many things you complained about make sense now. Cookies for pointing those out.

I guess VAC shouldmake a great combo with GetTacticalView

Edited by zapat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A new experimental build is released. It is experimental because I have changed many things based on your feedback and I disabled tutorial until I find the UI final. I am pretty excited about this, since I think all the feedback I received was exceptionally good and they really made the system better. (Thx again MacScottie, Ryd and Rübe)

Highlights:

-Savegames enabled

-GetTacticalView is reworked more a'la Jagged Alliance style. I am excited about this, since it is a lot more enjoyable now!

-Settings menu added to GTV

-Ability to command target

-Lotsa fixes

Detailed changelog:

GTV FIX: units now react to default follow order

GTV FIX: units are NOT stopped after Plan MODE

GTV FIX: visible units are not hidden

GTV FIX: visible mission specific objects are not hidden

GTV FIX: 3rd/1st person view kept after switching

GTV ADD:camera behaves differently in buildings

GTV ADD:unit can be ordered to target an emeny unit

GTV REWORK:

planmode is waypoint mode - quick command is instant move mode

lot better visuals

buildingmode shows buildingpositions, which will be the EXACT positions for the unit to move

ForceMove added if the unit doesn't follow your orders by himself

Planmode doubleclick only repositions the camera, SHIFT+DOUBLECLICK selects a new unit as player

settings panel added

CORE fix: got rid of the funny names (hey I thought some of them was funny)

CORE POSSIBLE FIX: for some people with some mods the intro screen never appeared.

SKIRMISH HUNT add: better description

SKIRMISH HUNT add: you have more to do than just kill the target

I need feedback now more than ever. Especially:

-how does the forcemove system work? (It is quite hard to move those guys sometimes)

-does savegame work allright?

-does the intro screen appears with any addons?

-is the interface better this way?

DOWNLOAD

Thanks for any input in advance.

Edited by zapat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the new version. Will download and check it out later on today. Really spec for the MP version you are talking about too!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And some info has rolled in: the SCENARIO NOW WORKS with some previously comflicting mods!

Kremator: The Addon version is coming around late September. THEN I can start converting it to MP. The SP will be easy, since I wrote it fully modular, which means it will be simple to rip it from the rest of the game. MP however is a different thing: I have no experience with it, so it'll start with learning and stuff. I'd say end of this year.

Edited by zapat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you need the addon tested mate.... just ask, and I'll help out all I can.

EDIT: regarding the revive portion, one of the Holy Grail of any revive is to get ANY medic (not just in your group) to run over and heal you (when he is not under fire of course!). Is this something you are thinking of too ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Umm, no, I haven't. I think it is most challenging if the player needs to solve the problem. It should be death in the first place: I opted for revive because your units - after the unit feats are on - will be too valuable and special for you, so I don't want to make you loose them too easily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×