Israel General

[mistyronin 1181]

@MR

Yeah you should do a study group together and learn why I put the Hamas, muslim brothers, al-qaida, Daash and the ISIS in one hand and the rest of the muslims in the other hand.

I'm no racist I have more then one arabs friends, I live in a mix city - this extremist Jihad is not good for anyone not for the muslims and not for anyone else.

You really have a problem if you justify the IDF massive killings of Palestinian civilians saying that it's their fault for voting Hamas.

And you were the one that talks about democratic values?

So in your mind, following the latest example, was it right that Al Qaeda blew up the London Metro & buses in the attack of the 7th of July? Blaming that was revenge for the Iraq war or the 9/11? that was also supposed to be another revenge?

And you are then so funny to say that my Iraqi friend should learn about Arabs and Muslims...

Most likely the kids that have mistakenly killed in Gaza were innocents but do their uncle, or father might have been Hamas members? Did their mother or brother voted for Hamas? Civilians are part of war this days as ever and they pay the price.

Edited August 12, 2014 by MistyRonin

[shay_gman 272]

@DM You really didn't understand what I was saying:

I've started by saying that I sad and ashamed for the killing of civilians, but you can't look only on the civilians as they have been dropped into Gaza out of the sky.

Hamas was so called democratically elected by the civilians, the Hamas fighters are recruited from the local population - aka civilians. The Hamas have started this round of violence and refused to stop in all the numerous times he had.

So by right Hamas is the chosen party of Gaza civilians or at least for the majority of them. So you can't just look at the dead civilians and say "Israel fault" without understanding the motive, background and the actions that lead to the latest violence outbreak. Especially where there are so many evidence of Hamas forcing civilians to stay at home, shooting from hospitals and UN facilities exc.

I told you before if you judge war by its victims then no war is just - as the winners will usually will have less victims and it is not a contest of who killed the most or least it is a contest of who is responsible for this violence and who did more for the poor civilians in Gaza. As said before even Egypt which was always the greatest favorite of Gaza (After all Gaza was their territory before 1967) condemned and attack Hamas for the suffer of its people.

It is sad that civilians are being killed - but are Israel is the one to blame for defending itself? If you would have condemned both side I can find logic in that - but I don't see anti-hamas protest out there only anti-israelis.

So yeah if the IDF did war crimes - investigate this and prosecute who ever ordered or did that - with the extenuating circumstances of fighting in a dense civilian area while the other side totally disregards Geneva convention or any other law of war.

Don't be a pawn in terror hands the Hamas wants as many civilians causality as it can or he will not have any legitimate reason to exist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xuYcjubV7I

Edited August 12, 2014 by shay_gman

[mistyronin 1181]

It is sad that civilians are being killed - but are Israel is the one to blame for defending itself? If you would have condemned both side I can find logic in that - but I don't see anti-hamas protest out there only anti-israelis.

I already said, from my first posts, that Israel has the right to defend itself, but obviously in a proportionate and logical way.

We are not talking about the Sayert Matkal conducting a raid and killing a civilian by accident, or not even a precise aerial bombing that again by accident killed a couple or more.

We are talking about hundreds of dead people in the space of weeks. We are talking about dozens of aerial bombings, naval artillery, etc. Blocks of houses destroyed. UN compounds shelled.

Or the Mossad has suddenly turned useless, or you tell me why isn't the IDF targeting better.

BTW I still have to see any proof that Hamas used any of the bombed UN sites or hospitals as placements for their rockets. But even if they did, the logical action is to avoid any civilian casualties and use adecuate methods, not shelling or bombing the building down. Specially if that rockets are not causing major casualties in the Israelian side.

That way you are creating more hate against Israel, not otherwise. But I'm afraid that some of that attacks are lead with hate, with seek of revenge ( you can read the comments the Isreali soldiers leave, or read/listen to the witness of former IDF soldiers ).

[shay_gman 272]

We are talking about hundreds of dead people in the space of weeks. We are talking about dozens of aerial bombings, naval artillery, etc. Blocks of houses destroyed. UN compounds shelled.

This is war - blame the Hamas for starting it or to not wanting to stop it or wait for the investigation of Huge otherwise your words just encourage the Hamas to have more civilian casualties.

[froggyluv 2130]

It's a chicken and the egg circle - "stop shooting rockets and we'll talk a free palestine"; "Stop encroaching on our land with settlers and brutalizing our people and we'll stop shooting rockets..".

I find this Op-Ed piece from Haaretz pretty compelling:

Whether to go right toward a Jewish one-state or go left toward a democratic one-state is a serious challenge for liberal Jews both inside and outside Israel, who are committed to liberal values such as equality and civil rights…

Liberalism stands for equality and individual rights; Zionism, by contrast, aims to maintain Jewish sovereignty in an area populated predominantly by Palestinian Arabs. It is impossible to square this circle: granting exceptional privilege to one group on the basis of their historical experiences and membership in an ethnic, national or religious group is inherently at odds with a political philosophy premised on universal equality and individual rights. It is illogical to claim that everyone is equal, yet some are more equal. A state founded by and for the Jewish people, living both within and outside of its territory, cannot also be a democratic state for all its citizens within territorial limits.

These contradictions undermine the neat spatial and temporal delineations of liberal Zionists who characterize Israel as illiberal only beyond the “Green Line†and liberal within it. As the Israeli political geographer Oren Yiftachel

asserts

, portrayals of the existence of “Israel proper†within the “Green Line†as “Jewish and democratic†are both “analytically flawed and politically deceiving.†Instead, he argues that the whole entity, territorially and politically, ought to be characterized as an ethnocracy rather than a democracy….

I say to liberal Jews who are genuinely committed to equality: Stop just hugging and wrestling. Recognize that assumptions about the possibility of a Jewish democracy have rested on sloppy or wishful thinking, with devastating consequences. Confront the logical impossibility of “liberal Zionism.†Demand civil rights for all. Go left.

~http://mondoweiss.net/2014/05/solution-zionists-ethnocracy.html

At the crux of it all is a Jewish state that wants to be a Democracy but still Jewish-ly dominant..

[katipo66 94]

Trying to paint all Muslims as terrorists is the same is saying all Israelis are Nazis because of the extreme far right..

For example are these guys really saying "there is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza"?

You would hope not.

[shay_gman 272]

God forbid I will never try to paint all Muslims or even some muslims as terrorists. I paint only extremist ones as a danger to democracy and liberty btw on both sides.

Extremist Jewish is the same as extremists Muslims as extremist Christians.

Democracy have the right to defend itself and not bow to this extremists from any sides.

And Froggyluv I do agree having a Jewish state is a major obstacle toward true equality I don't know how can I expect Israeli arab to stand in the national anthem and singing "jewish's souls is looking forward".

But apart from the statement as Jewish state there is no actual barriers between jewish and non jewish in Israel. Non Jewish can be the prime minsters or hold any position they have total liberty.

I guess the Jews and Israelis are suffering from the "beaten kid" syndrome, we are afraid that if we let down our guards we will be on the wrong side of the sword again. And to be honest suffering from war every 5 years in average or less being condemned every time by rest of the world (for example Israel have more UN resolutions then all the world combineds) then we feel prosecuted.

At the end it is pretty obvious that nor the Israelis or the Palestinian will just cut tail and run and while Israel is being pushed more and more from the western world it is only Inevitable that at the end it will find itself in the eastern block (I really wish I wouldn't be around to see it) but as the eastern block rise (by east I mean China and India) and the western block sunk more and more investments from the eastern blocks made in Israel.

Now Israel and it terrified citizens will never give up for the only fear of obligations again, that is why a small country like Israel was on the race for nuclear power - to worn the world "never again" never again will the jewish people will march to death. Now this is a very delicate situation - but let me tell you something honestly as a guy that lives in Israel for the last 32 years - we don't want war but we afraid of peace.

We afraid that the peace will have will be short handed and we will end up in worse position then we had before. Examples: We gave up Sinai and the Suez canal for peace with Egypt, last year it looks like Egypt lost itself to Jihad with the Muslims brothers and Morsi, we pulled out of Gaza - just to get rockets, we pulled out of southern Lebanon - just to get the Hizballah and the 2006 war, if we would have given the Golan Heights for peace with Syria we would have ISIS on our northern border.

So we are afraid very afraid for our fate. But when we are not threatened we get loose and we pulled out of Lebanon not because of threats but because of morality - a lot of groups in Israel opposed occupation same thing happened with Yasser Arafat and the peace talks - we just had enough, we are tired of war, pogroms and persecution , after all most of us (there are always some extremist) just want to live in peace.

But again like any change it can only be done in one of two ways:

Subjection - that will cost the world a lot as I don't think Israel or the Palestinians will just give up and leave.

Sympathy - that will take time, but in due time Israel will lay her guards down, if our neighbours will do the same.

[vilas 473]

one Israeli soldier, named Sherrii Ikadei (if i spell correclty , cause some sources say he is David Ovadia - the same name as Rabin Ovadia who says that "non-Jews are being born to be slaves of Jews") said to one woman on Instagram that he killed 13 children and he will kill her too - i wonder if this pschyopat will be eliminated by Israel ? cause admitting to kill children shows he is simply pshyopath and murderer, not soldier, in case of war, i believe sentence should be short - like in war time and punishment should be also quick - i hope those kids were not brainwashed young Jihad fighters

the same time Jihadists teach their kids how to behead people - i know, i know about guys who lived in west but went to fight in Syria with kids, and give those kids heads of Syrian soldiers to take selfie (i really hope that stupid naive western world will wake up and destroy all Jihadists before Jihadists will behead them as "infidels", so far west is naive and act like blind ) but if someone enjoys killing kids, he is psychopath that deserve death, nothing more

---------- Post added at 07:51 ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 ----------

mainwhile in A-stan : Mulla rape 10 yars old girl in Mosque - her family decided to kill her - cause she is not virgin and brings shame to family - yeeeeaaaa tolleaaaanceeeee political corecntessss

Edited August 13, 2014 by vilas

[Deathstruck 375]

The part about music kinda piqued my interest. Is there really not a single muslim metal band or something like that?

Meanwhile in Israel, there is something like

- a band that preaches peace between Palestine, Israel and all Abrahamic religions.

Too bad no conflict could be solved like this. :)

[shay_gman 272]

@Katipo66 The translation isn't accurate:

In the first part they are calling for Ahmad Tibi saying "that he might be worry because his kid can be harmed next" and in the second the call Hanin Zoabi "This is Israel Zoabi, this is the state of the Jewish we hate all the arabs"

Now I condemned their actions I think that they are sick people but I'm happy that you brought up this video because this is showing why Israel have such a strong democracy:

First, As said in the Telegraph this is a small and neglect right hand's extremists' counter protest to the huge left wing protest in the same area calling to end the war or as the Telegraph wrote it:

As the cries of “I hate all the Arabs†and “Gaza is a cemetery†intensified, some of the protestors tried to accost the participants in one of the country’s biggest anti-war demonstrations this year. “Go protest in Gaza!†they shouted at the thousands spread all over Tel Aviv’s main protest square, in a demonstration that dwarfed the extremists’ riot.

So yes this is to show you that Israel is in fact always criticized itself and we here protest for peace – while in Gaza they protest to keep the fight.

Second, the people this extremists were protesting against: Hanin Zoabi and Ahmad Tibi are both Israeli Arabs that are members of the Israeli parliament that in the past called for the extermination of Israel, Hanin was on board the Gaza flotilla (that delivered weapon to Hamas) and Ahmad Tibi called for Shids – martyrs against Israel – while both still remains in the parliament – not a lot of democracies can say the same about members of their parliament remain in chair after going against their own country.

@Vilas don't fall to any propaganda you see – first of all this have been investigated by Israelis authority and found out that this was fake (I couldn't find anything in English but this) with a lot of other ant-Israelis fake pictures – most of them from Syria.

Don't be pawns in terror hands – the war is ugly, a lot of civilians did die, how many? I don't know but most likely not as much as the Palestinians reports but we and the UN will investigate this and the IDF actions when it's done, there is no massacre, no genocide, just a plain ugly, urban, over populated area against a terror organization that love to shoot from inside schools.

BTW Salvator_Lee - OL is a great band i'll be attending in there concert at the 27 or August :)

[bigpickle 0]

God forbid I will never try to paint all Muslims or even some muslims as terrorists. I paint only extremist ones as a danger to democracy and liberty btw on both sides.

Extremist Jewish is the same as extremists Muslims as extremist Christians.

Democracy have the right to defend itself and not bow to this extremists from any sides.

And Froggyluv I do agree having a Jewish state is a major obstacle toward true equality I don't know how can I expect Israeli arab to stand in the national anthem and singing "jewish's souls is looking forward".

But apart from the statement as Jewish state there is no actual barriers between jewish and non jewish in Israel. Non Jewish can be the prime minsters or hold any position they have total liberty.

I guess the Jews and Israelis are suffering from the "beaten kid" syndrome, we are afraid that if we let down our guards we will be on the wrong side of the sword again. And to be honest suffering from war every 5 years in average or less being condemned every time by rest of the world (for example Israel have more UN resolutions then all the world combineds) then we feel prosecuted.

At the end it is pretty obvious that nor the Israelis or the Palestinian will just cut tail and run and while Israel is being pushed more and more from the western world it is only Inevitable that at the end it will find itself in the eastern block (I really wish I wouldn't be around to see it) but as the eastern block rise (by east I mean China and India) and the western block sunk more and more investments from the eastern blocks made in Israel.

Now Israel and it terrified citizens will never give up for the only fear of obligations again, that is why a small country like Israel was on the race for nuclear power - to worn the world "never again" never again will the jewish people will march to death. Now this is a very delicate situation - but let me tell you something honestly as a guy that lives in Israel for the last 32 years - we don't want war but we afraid of peace.

We afraid that the peace will have will be short handed and we will end up in worse position then we had before. Examples: We gave up Sinai and the Suez canal for peace with Egypt, last year it looks like Egypt lost itself to Jihad with the Muslims brothers and Morsi, we pulled out of Gaza - just to get rockets, we pulled out of southern Lebanon - just to get the Hizballah and the 2006 war, if we would have given the Golan Heights for peace with Syria we would have ISIS on our northern border.

So we are afraid very afraid for our fate. But when we are not threatened we get loose and we pulled out of Lebanon not because of threats but because of morality - a lot of groups in Israel opposed occupation same thing happened with Yasser Arafat and the peace talks - we just had enough, we are tired of war, pogroms and persecution , after all most of us (there are always some extremist) just want to live in peace.

But again like any change it can only be done in one of two ways:

Subjection - that will cost the world a lot as I don't think Israel or the Palestinians will just give up and leave.

Sympathy - that will take time, but in due time Israel will lay her guards down, if our neighbours will do the same.

The whole world is conveniently and deliberately forgetting the one clear cut message given to us by God, whom ever name you shall give him, every religion teaches the same thing, (apart from satanism) do not kill! under any circumstance no one has the right to kill another. Those that do and those that justify it are extremist, plain and simple. We are all the same we are all brothers and sisters, governments/wealthy create the boundaries we know as countries and patriotism, them and us.. but its all a lie, they are us and we are them.. and we kill and support the killing because we are fooled, all we are doing is protecting the greedy and evil people who run our societies and use us in their power games against each other.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Bigpickle

[Tonci87 163]

The whole world is conveniently and deliberately forgetting the one clear cut message given to us by God, whom ever name you shall give him, every religion teaches the same thing, (apart from satanism) do not kill! under any circumstance no one has the right to kill another. Those that do and those that justify it are extremist, plain and simple. We are all the same we are all brothers and sisters, governments/wealthy create the boundaries we know as countries and patriotism, them and us.. but its all a lie, they are us and we are them.. and we kill and support the killing because we are fooled, all we are doing is protecting the greedy and evil people who run our societies and use us in their power games against each other.

[vilas 473]

all religions teach not to kill ? uuu seems you need to read Quoran more:

read about how Muslim should kill non-Muslims :http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm before saying such naive words

read about they threat death to apostates and etc.

western people are so naive,

in Christian Bible or Buddist books similar texts are harder to find, Israelis who say in this topic words our European future are not naive

Edited August 17, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

all religions teach not to kill ? uuu seems you need to read Quoran more:

read about how Muslim should kill non-Muslims :http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm before saying such naive words

read about they threat death to apostates and etc.

western people are so naive,

in Christian Bible or Buddist books similar texts are harder to find, Israelis who say in this topic words our European future are not naive

Well you could argue that the Thora, aka the old testament is also full with teachings to kill the enemys of the one true god.....

The new testament really makes the most sense.

[vilas 473]

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

and a lot more to quote

"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

"And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

"I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

Christianity, Buddism say about forgiving enemies, find such text in Quran and quote it,

Edited August 17, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Christianity, Buddism say about forgiving enemies, find such text in Quran and quote it,

( National Geographic ) Koran a Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say

I've read all the Bible, and specially the Old Testament it's extreme. If they made a movie with all what appears there would be rated for 18 and above.

All religions have some twisted parts, even the Buddhism.

BTW Christianism, specifically Catholicism is just a mixture of the Jewish and the Roman religions ( with one main God, but keeping the one semi-God as patron per trade, the Saints ), and adding some Stoicism philosophy.

In fact the Catholicism is not even pure monotheistic as God is a trilogy ( the father, the son and the holy spirit ). etc.

[vilas 473]

scholars say - hahahahaha,

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."

"The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

maybe you could try go to Saudi Arabia and say that you are gay and see this peace and love ? go to Saudi Arabia and wear t-shirt with Christ and Mary and wear cross on your neck ;) how long you will be alive there ? i cannot post this love here, but i know 10000 videos of such love, if they are such peaceful, why they burn face by acid of woman who took photo with smile ? how much gays were hanged in Iran this month ? how much people who converted to Christianity or being apostate were killed and are under police protection because of death threats?

wake up man, before it is not too late, before you can walk street with your woman in mini skirt drinking beer or wine and listening to the metal music

Edited August 17, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

maybe you could try go to Saudi Arabia and say that you are gay and see this peace and love ?

In Russia there has been a lot gay bashing lately, and many other Christian countries, not to talk 100 years ago. Go in some South-Center America Catholic countries and say that you are gay.

On the subject, check what the Christian Bible or the Hebrew have to say about gays ( look for Sodom and Gomorrah ). It's even in the New Testament.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[vilas 473]

we do not kill them , they do

[mistyronin 1181]

we do not kill them , they do

We generally not kill now, but a few years ago we did. And yeah there still are homophobic murders in the Western countries.

[vilas 473]

there is difference when extreme is 0.1% or 1% and when extreme is 40% or 60%

our civilisation made step from middle ages, middle east is in middle ages (look at Mullahs saying that earth is flat and earthquakes are caused by women wearing short skirts)

look at level of tolerance (when they come to us, they demand to ban our stuff, ban Christmass tree demands, ban ham in some restaurants demands etc. when 1 muslim kid came to one school, his parents demanded to ban ham in whole school etc. )

[mistyronin 1181]

there is difference when extreme is 0.1% or 1% and when extreme is 40% or 60%

our civilisation made step from middle ages, middle east is in middle ages (look at Mullahs saying that earth is flat and earthquakes are caused by women wearing short skirts)

look at level of tolerance (when they come, they demand to ban our stuff)

In UK being homosexual was a crime punishable with death less than two hundred years ago:

Buggery Act 1533

I agree that some countries have really old fashioned mentalities, but look how Europe was in the middle age when Middle East was the cradle of knowledge and progress.

[vilas 473]

i told - we moved from middle ages, they want to bring middle ages to whole world, we must stop middle ages to live like we live now (untill we can live that way , until we can watch porn, listen to metal, order pizza peperoni or speghetti bolognese)

[mistyronin 1181]

i told - we moved from middle ages, they want to bring middle ages to whole world

BTW the Middle ages ended 500 years ago.

We are talking that death penalty for being homosexual or slavery were legal in Europe less than 200 years ago.

[vilas 473]

i say about mental middle-ages not about historical

i say about real tolerance not about "tolerance" in which all kids in school must have pork baned cause 1 muslim came

real toleance is when they tolerate our rules, not try to change our rules to fill their belief, if in city Muslims demand to ban something - this is example of midle ages and lack of tolerance

if someone doesn't like pork, short skirts , Christmass tree, Santa Claus, music - he should not come to Europe

if someone doesn't care about what people eat, what people wear - he is welcomed

i seen several press reports about situation in German or French or British schools, few Muslim kids want to rule rest of kids, if something is not in Sharia, they demand to ban it , so why they come here if they dislike our lifestyle and food and tradition ?

do we come to them to change their (we did 1000 years ago when there were Crusades) but in XVII century they were trying to invade Europe (Ottoman Empire)

if i go to Italy i eat Italian food, i do not demand to ban Italian food and force there Polish food

when i go to Austria , i eat Austrian food, i do not demand to ban Austrian food and force Polish food etc.

if i would hate Italian food and Italian churches, i would not go to Italy

if i would hate Alps, i would not go there etc. etc. etc.

when someone come to my country and eat Italian food - i have nothing against it , it is tolerance

now compare it to guys who demand to ban Christmass tree and Santa Clause cause "it offends them" compare it to guys who settle "Sharia zones" and no-go zones in west

Edited August 17, 2014 by vilas