Israel General

[shay_gman 272]

@mistyRonin I don't if you are posting this out of ignorance or hate but your facts are wrong.

Until 1925 there were 200,000 Muslims in Israel and 50,000 Jews and Christians. By the end of the British mandate and because of it (work place and health care) the number of Muslims raised to 1 million at the end of mandate. So yeah most of the Palestinians today are the sons and daughters of work immigrants that came to Israel during the british mandate.

Jews did not formed a government and controlled the Palestinians the UN produced a partition plane in which both Jews and Muslims share the land without one controlling the other.

The Muslims ignored the UN decision and started a war. A war that is known as the Arab-Israeli war.

During the war Israel conquered land for strategic purpose and ended up looking like bellow. Also during the war some of the Muslims that lived in Israel flee to Egypt and Jordan while some remains. Those that remain (1.4 million today) were granted with full citizenship (which they didn't get in the arabic countries the rest ran too till this day). After the war israel tried to negotiate with the arab countries in returning some of refugees to Israel and giving back land but the arab countries refused to negotiate with Israel.

Were the hell did Israel put Palestinians in concentration camps?! and did ethnic cleansing?! are you blind or just full of hate?!

The only place in the middle east that the native citizens as you call them - or palestinians how the rest of the world call them (which never been used until 1967 when they invented a nation, after all most of them are just work immigrant that came to Israel during the british mandate) get treated like true citizen is in Israel. And believe me, the the Israeli Arabs wouldn't trade Israel for any other arab country in the middle east.

The Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza lived in concentration camps but not build by the Jews but by the Arabs. The Palestinians that ran away from Israel in 1948 have settled in the West Bank and Gaza since nor Egypt or Jordan gave them permission to buy lands or live as citizens.

In the 6 days war (which again was force on Israel) Israel sadly conquered this camps again and after the war till today not Egypt or Jordan want them back.

In Jordan the Palestinian have started a civil war that only been eradicated after 20,000 Palestinians casualties by the Jordanians and Israel intervention to stop Syria from attacking Jordan.

So no we didn't put them in concentration camps nor built walls around them. The lived in concentration camps that their "brothers" from the other arab countries build them, we build walls to protect the borders because they kept on attacking us and we got stuck with them although we really don't want them.

The world just forget that we live together in peace and equal life with our 1.8 million Israeli muslims or christians. I live in Haifa which is a mixed city I eat with them, work with them, laugh and cry with them.

Our suprime court judge is arabic Salim Joubran some of our IDF soldiers and commanders are arabic, some christan some duruz and some muslims. The hell the Golani (infantry brigade) brigade commander who was injured in the last operation in Gaza is arab Col. Rassan Alian.

Here goes your Israeli are just racist and want to kill all muslims theory.

We want to live in peace with our neighbours. Israel was nothing but a marsh land 80 years ago and we made it oasis, together with the Arabs after all they are our brothers even if we fight at times.

Peace will be answered with peace and war with war.

But those extremists are the cancer of the world. .

If Israel were not to be then there will be nothing to stand in theri way to have the Khalifa of Islam from Iran to Egypt through Syria, a country lead by crazy extremist muslims, holding neuclear weapons on the borders of easter europe living by the Sharia and dedicating their life to fight the infendals because there is no greater glory for them the the Shouda which is dying in the name of Islam.

Hey wait a minute isn't that ArmA 3 script?! well they have foreseen the invadable future were the west will have to fight against an arab world united under the Sharia.

The extremist muslims are not happy: they’re not happy in Gaza, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria or Lebanon

So where are they happy?

They’re happy in Australia, Canada, England, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, USA , Norway, Holland and Denmark.

Basically, they’re happy in every country that is not Muslim and unhappy in every country that is!

And who do they blame?

Not Islam.

Not their leadership.

Not themselves.

THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!

And then they want to change those countries to be like….

THE COUNTRY THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE UNHAPPY!

Shay_gman I really understand the motivation of Israel and the reasons. But your current government is not doibg you a service. This indiscriminate killing of civilians is not only a war crime but will also have a huge backlash in the future.

I don't support this government at all but this war was just.

LEARN FROM HISTORY, EVIL NEVER WINS NO MATTER WHAT !

Thanks for reminding us we do learn from the past and we have learned that it better not to postpone wars. The west softness against the Natzis almost cost the world last time, we sure ain't gonna wait for Iran to have nuclear bombs :p

BTW remind where there was peace with the arabs? This nation is just an ongoing event of war to riot to civil war from the dawn of the earth they live and die by the sword.

Edited August 6, 2014 by shay_gman

[mistyronin 1181]

This is where the Jews were living after all the immigration after the Shoah ( 1946 )

So if that not ring any bells... there is no sense in keep talking, specially if you go through the pass of personal attacks instead of arguments and data.

You have linked the UN plan not the status before as I said... BTW that was the worst plan ever made by the UN, although I understand why they did it, but it's the most shameful action and we still can see the consequences of that brutal mistake of the UN.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/palestinan_map.jpg (137 kB)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Palestinian-loss-of-land-1946-2010.jpg (177 kB)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Palestine-20-48.png (163 kB)

Edited August 6, 2014 by MistyRonin

[shay_gman 272]

This is where the Jews were living after all the immigration after the Shoah ( 1946 )

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/palestinan_map.jpg (137 kB)

You have linked the UN plan not the status before as I said...

Your map is wrong it is showing all the non occupied lands as Palestinian settlements. Even the Negev at the south is Palastenian land where there were never settlements there not even in the bible time it is just a big desert.

It is like saying where you live is yours but the rest is mine... lol it doesn't make any sense.

The white spots in the left are were the Jews lived it is true but most of the country is just a big freaking desert and the north was just a big empty swamp. The Arabs lived where they are still living today in Haifa, Akko, Jaffa, Jerusalem, Gaza, west bank and the galil the rest is just empty land.

There is not a single vacant arab village in Israel except on small one in the Golan heights that was taken from Syria not the Palestinian.

Mate you really should come and visit me maybe you'll change your opinion after you'll see it with your own eyes and not fed with anti-israeli propaganda.

Well if you think that giving what left of the jews (500,000) refugees a piece of land so they can rebuild themself after the Natzis have killed 6,000,000 of them a bad plan is just like saying to the Natzis - why the hell didn't you finished what you have started.

Edited August 6, 2014 by shay_gman

[mistyronin 1181]

Mate you really should come and visit me maybe you'll change your opinion after you'll see it with your own eyes and not fed with anti-israeli propaganda.

Yeah all are lies, just check the Israel Gov. Census ...

Or here a project of the American-Isreali Cooperative or they lie too?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html

With that data is crystal clear what happened.

But according to you in 1925 there were only 200.000 palestines and 80.000 Jews ( what happened to the other 400.000 Palestines? ).

I've taken the time to calculate what part of the population the Jews represented in 1925 and they were... *drums* 11%

So in 1945 the Jews have multiplied their numbers in Judea per 7 times. But were still 1/4 of the population.

What part of the population were the Palestine in 1967 *drums* 10%... Magic!

Again all that with the official data of the Israel Census.

Well if you think that giving what left of the jews (500,000) refugees a piece of land so they can rebuild themself after the Natzis have killed 6,000,000 of them a bad plan.

Exacly, here is where I wanted to arrive!

The Nazis ( from Germany ) killed 6.000.000 Jews.

- Who should compensate the victims?

- The aggressors? The nazis? The Germans?

- NO. The Palestines.

- But why? If they didn't do anything, nor are related in any way with the Nazis.

- But the Torah says that God promised Judea to the Jews. Over.

is just like saying to the Natzis - why the hell didn't you finished what you have started.

So if my neighbor kills my wife, I have the right to kill the first woman I see in the street... and whoever doesn't allow me is an assassin!

Who cares about justice, it's clear that the Jews not much.

Edited August 6, 2014 by MistyRonin

[shay_gman 272]

Yeah all are lies, just check the Israel Gov. Census ...

Or here a project of the American-Isreali Cooperative or they lie too?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html

With that data is crystal clear what happened.

But according to you in 1925 there were only 200.000 palestines and 80.000 Jews ( what happened to the other 400.000 Palestines? ).

Not according to me according to history maybe I wrote it in passion without explaining myself very good because my point was that most of the Palestinians are work immigrant.

In 1800 there were the numbers as I wrote and it supported by the chart you have sent.

In 1915 there numbers doubles and by 1925 the grow more then 270%. This is not due to birth but immegration to work on the Hejaz Railway and later on in the industry of the Turkish and British mandte.

As you can see the numbers of jews raise only in 1915 (first immigration to israel till 1903 and second total of almost 70,000 Jews immegrant to Israel).

Now the magic is the Arabs doubled their numbers while the Jews even with it massive immigrants after WW2 (300,000 people) only got to half.

So let me tell you something it ain't magic but immigration in the 1800 Napoleon saw only 250,000 people in Israel 200,000 arabs and 50,000 Jews then all of the sudden the numbers just blow the charts... what happens?!

Immigration both Jews and Arabs immigrate to Israel so stop with this Palestinian BS, we both mostly immigrants. Nobody have a claim over the land.

I don't care about the Jewish biblical claim as much as I don't care about the Palestinian "I'm here since the bible time" claim. We are all immigrants just like most of the world in the colonist era till WW2 and now that we have put that in our past the only question is this: Do you want peace because we want and proven that we can live with Arabs and muslims together with equal rights?

I've still haven't heard the palestinian calls for peace just for death and war...

The Nazis ( from Germany ) killed 6.000.000 Jews.

- Who should compensate the victims?

- The aggressors? The nazis? The Germans?

- NO. The Palestines.

Well they did work with the Natzis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world

We don't want no compensation from any one if you didn't understand it by now, we can take care of ourselves thank you.

The UN has made a decision you think it is wrong one, live with it or give me another land or stay out of it.

Because all I hear is complains I fell to see anyone here with a solution.

TBH why even get to a debate of who own what and when, we get Israel by the UN voting this the fact the rest we conquer in legits wars and we ain't giving it back. Now live with it and find a solution as we never denied arabs from living in Israel although I can't live in Gaza even 5 minutes. Nations conquer and by this definition all the world is a stolen property.

We don't hold any other country lands expect the Golan Heights which I Syria don't and not able to negotiate peace atm.

http://www.irish4israel.ie/communities/6/004/012/354/666//images/4603457972_818x333.jpg

Edited August 6, 2014 by shay_gman

[mistyronin 1181]

I'm sorry but I lose any desire of debating with you after this:

Well if you think that giving what left of the jews (500,000) refugees a piece of land so they can rebuild themself after the Natzis have killed 6,000,000 of them a bad plan is just like saying to the Natzis - why the hell didn't you finished what you have started.

This statement is so unfair, so egoist, so hypocrite, so egocentric, so arrogant, so intolerant, and so many other wrong things that it's to me an insult to the intelligence.

As the Germans have killed 6 millions of my people I have the right to settle down in someone else land ( not German obviously! ), and remove them from their homes, make colonies and settlements, enclose them with walls, forbid them to travel, arrest their kids without a proper argument, massacre their population, and a long etc. And who ever says anything against me is a "Nazi" or "pro-Nazi".

BTW "smart" guy, check the world's demography from 1800 to 1925... Now it seems that all the world is an immigrant... Not that health conditions and agriculture improved... Go and read some history and geography.

If you pretend anyone to buy your statements... I only have to say: Good night and good luck!

Edited August 6, 2014 by MistyRonin

[shay_gman 272]

I can say the same about your statement: Declaring a state for the Jews was the biggest mistake the UN did?! like what the hell mate?!

I don't flame in debates usually but this one was too much so I guess we are even you hurt my feeling I hurt yours. But I apologize sincerely as I didn't ment to harm you.

This is a delicate topic for me and apparently for you too.

My statement was the arabs doubled their numbers in 20 years from 1922 to 1945 and this is only by immigrations. And I just wanted to neutralize the stupid claim from both sides - I was here before.

We are all mostly immigrants and the best thing we can do as apparently we both love this crappy piece of land is to work together for peace.

I would love to talk about solutions and not who started what.... and it will be great if some arabs or Palestinians can comment too but not like "we kill you all" or "get off my land" exc as we all know by now that this is not going to happened on any side.

Again sorry for hurting your feelings

[mistyronin 1181]

I can say the same about your statement: Declaring a state for the Jews was the biggest mistake the UN did?! like what the hell mate?!

I don't flame in debates usually but this one was too much so I guess we are even you hurt my feeling I hurt yours. But I apologize sincerely as I didn't ment to harm you.

First no need for apologize because you haven't hurt my feelings.

Second why you put in my mouth words that I haven't said and then you use those false words as an excuse to rant.

Where in any of my posts do you see this statement: "Declaring a state for the Jews was the biggest mistake the UN did?!"

What I said was:

You have linked the UN plan not the status before as I said... BTW that was the worst plan ever made by the UN, although I understand why they did it, but it's the most shameful action and we still can see the consequences of that brutal mistake of the UN.

Do you see anywhere "state for the Jews"?

I repeat that the UN plan was their biggest mistake, and anyone with half-brain could have seen it from the beginning that the proposition would lead to a lot of wars and ethnic problems.

In fact all the problems in the region in the last 60 years are mainly a product of how that plan distributed the terrain.

So now that we have that clear, I ask you to stop attributing me any more false statements and what is worst: make strange assumptions based on the statements you falsely attribute me.

[invisibull 0]

I repeat that the UN plan was their biggest mistake, and anyone with half-brain could have seen it from the beginning that the proposition would lead to a lot of wars and ethnic problems.

In fact all the problems in the region in the last 60 years are mainly a product of how that plan distributed the terrain.

The plan wasn't the problem at all. The problem was that Arabs were never going to accept a Jewish state and the Jews weren't going to accept NOT having one. The partition plan (RES. 181) was an attempt to address an already intractable situation, but as it was never actually implemented, we really can't blame it for anything except as perhaps a symbolic final straw for the Arabs. The violence had been raging since long before a U.N. even existed, and has increased proportionally with the increase in Jewish population. Notice how the Jews responded to the 1939 White Paper which put a quota on their immigration. With a great deal of violence toward the British. No, this one was going to end badly no matter what anyone did or didn't do about it.

[vilas 473]

i believe that violence also raised with raise of propaganda possibilities,

previously people living there had no radio, no tv,

so getting to their minds was little harder , only preacher was getting to their minds, and not all the time,

example: Hiler and Goebels succes - first radio, first tv, previously wars were less intensive than WW2, right ? there were no mass-media ,

now when people work , people listen to radio, this radio can influence opinions,

also previously distance between poor and rich was there not so visible, "all had goat", now Israelis have good car, Palestinians live in poverty and in tv they see those cars - so such factor is also increasing violent tensions (economical tension)

1 killed child, today makes in TV more attention than in past, in past when someone said "they killed 100 kids" it was not visible, but picture of even 1 kid in blood but on tv screen IS visible and brings attention more than 1000 words,

maybe subliminal technics are being used as well

Edited August 7, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

The plan wasn't the problem at all. The problem was that Arabs were never going to accept a Jewish state and the Jews weren't going to accept NOT having one. The partition plan (RES. 181) was an attempt to address an already intractable situation, but as it was never actually implemented, we really can't blame it for anything except as perhaps a symbolic final straw for the Arabs. The violence had been raging since long before a U.N. even existed, and has increased proportionally with the increase in Jewish population. Notice how the Jews responded to the 1939 White Paper which put a quota on their immigration. With a great deal of violence toward the British. No, this one was going to end badly no matter what anyone did or didn't do about it.

With a more feasible and reasonable plan, consulting all the parts; specially the natives not the immigrants that came during and after WW2 I'm pretty sure the result would have been better and maybe agreed by all the parts.

But with a really weird distribution of the terrain, really unfair for the natives ( who no one cared to listen ), without proper borders, divinding the capital, etc. That just worsened the situation.

And although that plan was not implemented was the base of most of the first conflicts, that for instance the Jews used as an excuse to legitimize their rights over certain territories ( although they took way more than the ones designated in the plan ).

[invisibull 0]

When you feel that your land is being stolen out from under you, there's no "feasible" way of negotiating around that perceived theft.

MR, i do understand your point, and it's a point that I've been thinking about for decades. The fact that the partition plan offered an almost indefensible and non-contiguous state to both parties does, at first blush, seem to be rather problematic. But after doing quite a bit of reading on the topic, I've reached the conclusion that short of a completely apolitical, disinterested world power (Fairy Tale) stepping in and refereeing, we were never going to avoid the ensuing violence.

When you have two parties so absolutely positive that they are right, and no one else with enough power or will steps up to sort them out, violence will necessarily follow. I think there's a certain amount of determinism to this. The U.N. has proven to be mostly useless, the U.S. is far too invested in Israel to be of any help, and no other party of adequate heft and purpose seems to care enough to get seriously involved. That my friend is the stuff that perpetual conflict is made of. Here's hoping I'm wrong.

Salam and Shalom

[mistyronin 1181]

The U.N. has proven to be mostly useless, the U.S. is far too invested in Israel to be of any help, and no other party of adequate heft and purpose seems to care enough to get seriously involved. That my friend is the stuff that perpetual conflict is made of. Here's hoping I'm wrong.

I think you have some really good points, but I also hope you are wrong and there's still a possible peaceful solution.

- - -

The "civilized" manners of the IDF soldiers ( BTW if anyone thinks that The Guardian is anti-semite just check their cover news, for instance Antisemitism on rise across Europe 'in worst times since the Nazis' )

( The Guardian ) Palestinians returning home find Israeli troops left faeces and venomous graffiti

When Ahmed Owedat returned to his home 18 days after Israeli soldiers took it over in the middle of the night, he was greeted with an overpowering stench.

He picked through the wreckage of his possessions thrown from upstairs windows to find that the departing troops had left a number of messages. One came from piles of faeces on his tiled floors and in wastepaper baskets, and a plastic bottle filled with urine.

If that was not clear enough, the words "Fuck Hamas" had been carved into a concrete wall in the staircase. "Burn Gaza down" and "Good Arab = dead Arab" were engraved on a coffee table. The star of David was drawn in blue in a bedroom.

"I have scrubbed the floors three times today and three times yesterday," said Owedat, 52, as he surveyed the damage, which included four televisions, a fridge, a clock and several computers tossed out of windows, shredded curtains and slashed soft furnishings.

A handful of plastic chairs had their seats ripped open, through which the occupying soldiers defecated, he said. Gaping holes had been blown in four ground-floor external walls, and there was damage from shelling to the top floor. There, in the living room, diagrams had been drawn on the walls, showing buildings and palm trees in the village, with figures that Owedat thought represented their distance from the border.

[Psycho_5101 10]

[shay_gman 272]

I think you have some really good points, but I also hope you are wrong and there's still a possible peaceful solution.

- - -

The "civilized" manners of the IDF soldiers ( BTW if anyone thinks that The Guardian is anti-semite just check their cover news, for instance Antisemitism on rise across Europe 'in worst times since the Nazis' )

( The Guardian ) Palestinians returning home find Israeli troops left faeces and venomous graffiti

Are you really out of valid arguments that you are going to use this: "IDF leave faeces and graffiti"?!

Yes me myself had the not so great experience of holding civilian house during a war. Well when you are fighting in urban area you are moving from house to house (not in the streets, because this is where the ambush. But literally through the walls to the next house) you don't go outside and put yourself under the risk of sniper fire and you do urine in a bottle (I'm so a shamed that the IDF so un-moral that they didn't pick the urine bottles with them to the 27 days trip to Gaza). You are using baskets in the worst case your helmet with a plastic nylon inside as a toilet, btw yes you leave the plastic bag with the faces behind most of the times.

Regarding the graffiti, it is always contains venomous materials, and this is what happens when you take 18 years kids to fight for the survival of their nation instead of summer break, they stuck in civilians house for hours or days urinating in plastic bags and taking dumps in baskets.

So yes, this is anti-semitic, anti-israel post by the Guardian or just someone with zero knowledge about the way the military is working.

Why won't you keep on talking that Hamas rejected the cease fire offer today after Israel totally withdraw from Gaza and they keep on firing on civilians.

Now it come to this: Israel un-deliberately hitting civilians (because all of the above and because Hamas want us to hit civilians), Hams deliberately is hitting civilians and when they have the chance to fight toe to toe wiht the IDF they run away. The are busy and aimed for killing civilians - us or their they don't care.

Now who do you want to live with? don't give me more excuse why are we the bad guys, give me solutions.

[katipo66 94]

Thankfully not everyone is believing the "move along, nothing to see here" propaganda anymore, the treatment of the Palestinians is nothing but disgusting, it's genocide and the world is ok with it.

[mistyronin 1181]

Are you really out of valid arguments that you are going to use this: "IDF leave faeces and graffiti"?!

What? This was not an argument. Was just a piece of news ( this thread is about commenting pieces of news about the recent events in Israel and so on ).

This thread is to talk about the recent events in Israel and all the facts involved. I ask you all to be polite.

I don't take part not for one side nor the other, I only point the mistakes both sides commit and post the recent news.

Yes me myself had the not so great experience of holding civilian house during a war.

Do I have to remember you that I was a professional soldier, and even in that situations we take care of our defecation an urine, not leave it around civilian houses ( in fact the officers were really strict on that point ).

It's curious because they didn't have time to take care of their stuff but they had enough to paint stupid graffiti, destroy most of the house, throw the furniture and electronic devices through the window and so on.

Regarding the graffiti, it is always contains venomous materials, and this is what happens when you take 18 years kids to fight for the survival of their nation instead of summer break, they stuck in civilians house for hours or days urinating in plastic bags and taking dumps in baskets.

That just mean that the IDF discipline level is really low, and that they level of training is also really bad. If the IDF officers can't control their soldiers, no wonder that they provoke so many chaos and war crimes.

BTW No one is "fighting for the survival of their nation". Or you are trying to tell me that a few dozen extremists with almost no resources throwing dumb rockets blindly from an enclosed and controlled place are a huge adversary for one of the most advanced armies in the world sponsored by the US.

Hams deliberately is hitting civilians and when they have the chance to fight toe to toe wiht the IDF they run away. The are busy and aimed for killing civilians - us or their they don't care.

Yeah how many Isreali civilians has Hamas killed recently? And again we are talking about a terrorist group.

While the IDF doesn't seem to be fighting Hamas but the Gaza population and what is more weird, targeting the UN compounds and shelters.

Now who do you want to live with? don't give me more excuse why are we the bad guys, give me solutions.

I think there are enough examples of how to fight terrorists in a more civilized way ( study about the troubles in Northern Ireland or ETA in Spain ). But the IDF has proven repeatedly that they don't now moderation nor to be civilized.

If even the Ukrainian army that is fighting against a WAY more strong enemy ( sponsored by Russia ) in Eastern Ukraine has not caused by far as many civilian deaths in all the months of the conflict than Israel in three weeks.

So yes, this is anti-semitic, anti-israel post by the Guardian or just someone with zero knowledge about the way the military is working.

Or you have a really huge mess in your head, or you haven't said that for real. Because... in that article there is nothing anti-semitic and nothing against israel. I don't know what knowledge have the writer about how the military works, but I do... and the IDF is behaving in the most undisciplined way, committing all kinds of atrocities. Going against most of the war conventions.

Imagine how bad is the situation that even their natural ally the US have issued serious complains, other friend countries like Spain stopped selling them weapons and the UN and a great number of countries accuse Israel of war crimes...

Edited August 8, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

^this

It is astonishing how many civilians the IDF has killed in that short time and really shows the attitude of IDF personal towards Palestinians.

[shay_gman 272]

Again,

I can't and don't want to argue about this topic any further, most likely you can't convince me and I can't convince you.

The reason you can't convince me is that I have no where to go and I refuse to live under terror threat.

There will be investigation and I can assure you that no war crimes going to pop up in the investigation.

Again Israel is the only country in the world that got bashed for fighting a declared terror organization while constantly being attacked by him and still forced to sit an negotiate with him.

Usually in Europe you are always finding the excuses of why not get to war until it to late. I failed although I've asked numerous time to hear even one solution for that situation in your opinions.

Regarding the death toll I told you once and I won't say it again: I will not apologize for having less deaths than my enemy. We don't hide rockets in schools ot UN buildings, we do not forcing citizens to stay in their houses and server as human shield - they do. Again, I don't feel like I have to defend my country and justify it while fighting terror from the worst kind.

Your examples of IRA or ETA are irelevent as they are both were European terror organization that by definition fight for independent and didn't called for a genocide of the British nor the spanish.

The ETA are responsible for 827 deaths since 1968 out of 47 million people in Spain - that is 0.00002% in 46 years.

The IRA are responsible for 2000 deaths (from both sides) since 1969 to 2005 out of 63 million people in UK- that is 0.00003% in 36 years.

In Israel the Palestinian terror group are responsible for 1227 deaths (without wars, just terror) since 2000 out of 7.8 million people in Israel - that is 0.00016% in 14 years! That is almost 18 times more.

The IRF fired 3 mortars on England, the Hamas have fired more then 16,000 rockets on Israel since 2001. Half of the Israeli childrens down south are suffering from post traumatic stress.

Regarding your military experience: have you ever been in a war? what the hell are telling me some wannabe soldiers stories about your valor in combat, the only one that can tell us moral story about war in this environments are the US as they did fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the USSR for fighting Afghanistan and Chechnya.

BTW in Iraq the civilian's body counts raised to more than 110,000 civilians deaths. But you all praised the "here come liberty" BS, although Iraq never fired rockets on US, never actively threaten the US not to mention that they don't even share a border or a continent and Iraq is a state and not a terror organization .

In Afghanistan were the US and the rest of the west "morally" troops went in to fight terror and "liberate" the poor civilians again from the terror organization you all clapped and cheered them but the death toll there is 174,000 civilians dead. Again Afghanistan as Iraq didn't have a shared border with US and they are both in different continents. But look at the numbers.

Both wars by the way I support - you can't superrate the civilians from the governments or from terror organization that live among them. Most likely the kids that have mistakenly killed in Gaza were innocents but do their uncle, or father might have been Hamas members? Did their mother or brother voted for Hamas? Civilians are part of war this days as ever and they pay the price. We don't want to kill civilians but it happens and it sad I wish I could say the same about Hamas.

So ask yourself sincerely: why when it come to Israel that is in fact protecting itself, while under constant threat and terror, while thousands of rockets fired upon it every year deserve different reaction from the world?

Are we anti semitic still or are we blind by the Palestinians propaganda and not seeing the truth?!

BTW you lovely Hamas and Daash and muslims brothers are the same so most likely this is coming soon to the theatre around you: http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-official-militants-hold-100s-yazidi-women-190650001.html

And just another "innocent" Hamas shooting rockets from UN buildings hoping that the IDF will react and kill the foreign press inside so you can call the IDF murders and justify Hamas:

Edited August 8, 2014 by shay_gman

[invisibull 0]

Something interesting regarding the "numbers game" being played with casualty figures in Gaza:

"It's important to bear in mind that in Operation Cast Lead [the last Israeli ground offensive in December 2008-January 2009], Hamas and Gaza-based organisations claimed that only 50 combatants were killed, admitting years later the number was between 600-700, a figure nearly identical to the figure claimed by the IDF."

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties."

Please find the quoted BBC article here.

I think that we should be very careful before accepting any numbers, especially since it does seem that Hamas's most powerful weapon is the number of dead civilians it can claim. I don't say this in any attempt to marginalize civilian deaths, but only to offer additional context to the numbers we see splashed across headlines every day.

[mistyronin 1181]

Again Israel is the only country in the world that got bashed for fighting a declared terror organization while constantly being attacked by him and still forced to sit an negotiate with him.

May it be for all the reasons we have talked before. First because the huge majority of the citizens of Israel were not there before 1940 ( you know according to the Israel's Gov. data ), unlike the Arabs that at that time were the 90%. Could also be because the IDF is attacking mainly civilian buildings with indiscriminate bombings. Could also be for the lack of respect that Israel shows against War conventions. And we could continue with that.

Or you think that all that critics are because of your Religion or Culture :rolleyes: That if you were Christian or Muslims or Buddhist there would be no criticism?

Regarding the death toll I told you once and I won't say it again: I will not apologize for having less deaths than my enemy. We don't hide rockets in schools ot UN buildings, we do not forcing citizens to stay in their houses and server as human shield - they do. Again, I don't feel like I have to defend my country and justify it while fighting terror from the worst kind.

Yeah, let's see the great number of casualties of Palestinian rockets for instance How many people have died from Gaza rockets into Israel?

You could also provide us with that amazing proof that there were rockets in the UN shelters and schools ( which in fact matters not, as according to the Geneva Convention are protected buildings ). And of course that the best way to remove hidden rockets is to bomb the entire building ( specially if we know that there are children inside, yuhuu! ).

what the hell are telling me some wannabe soldiers stories about your valor in combat, the only one that can tell us moral story about war in this environments are the US as they did fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the USSR for fighting Afghanistan and Chechnya.

Shay, seriously stop inventing things. Where do you find any "soldiers stories about your valor in combat"??? Unless you understand that knowing the Geneva Conventions and respect the civilians is a story of valor? Seriously you have a twisted view of how soldiers behave in war.

And you also got really strange referents... You can check the book "One Soldier's War" by the former Russian soldier ArkadiÄ­ Babchenko to know how the Russians fought in Chechnya.

And about the US in Afghanistan and Iraq. I think in Europe you will find few support for those wars and the damage they caused. Already form the beginning. Even in the US were and still are quite controversial wars.

Besides that we are talking about wars at big scale with more powerful and numerous enemies.

Most likely the kids that have mistakenly killed in Gaza were innocents but do their uncle, or father might have been Hamas members? Did their mother or brother voted for Hamas?

That is starting to be excessively similar to what certain politicians said in Germany during the 30's and beginning of the 40's.

For that reason, why not just exterminate all of them? They may have been related in one way or another to Hamas. So why even care?

Are we anti semitic still or are we blind by the Palestinians propaganda and not seeing the truth?!

You have really no idea what Semitic means. You know that Palestines are Semitics too no? ( in fact Arabs in general ).

But again we can go to the victimism topic, if anyone criticizes the massacres that our Army made is because they are racists and are against our Culture and ethnic group. You know, massacring civilians is morally right. :j:

Unless you are meaning that to massacre civilians is part of the Jewish culture...:rolleyes: ( which I already know from my Jewish friends and familiars that is not true, as they are against the IDF crimes )

Edited August 9, 2014 by MistyRonin

[shay_gman 272]

@MR i'm done arguing with you as it looks like you only see the facts that matters to you and neglect the others.

Go and learn:

First the Geneva convention rules declare that if a civilian site is used for military purpose is no longer protected under Geneva laws.

Second, Israel is a country established by a democratic voting by the UN, Palestine was never a country, most of them are work immigrants from the early 19th so your argument is invalid. So we have the right to protect established by UN's country.

You are taking side with a terror organization and neglect to ask: "Is my favorite terror organization, the Hamas is obeying the Geneva laws of war?"

Well they don't they do whatever they can to hurt civilians from both side, first they throw rockets on populated Israeli area and next they are using their own civilians facilities to shoot rockets from.

So why we care about the Geneva laws so dearly when they are using them to their own advantage? what kind of fantasy world are you living in?

This why it calls asymmetric war - and if my enemy doesn't obey the Geneva laws why would we get out of ourselves try to obey them.

I don't think you are running after Hamas call them to stop the shooting or at least confine it to military targets.

As I said i'm done arguing with you.

Your mind is one sided at the end this won't be the end there are great and grave changes in the world now. Changes that has been made possible by your "soft" understanding and love for extreme Jihad.

So most likely tomorrow you'll wake up to a Turkey as never seen before. The work of Ataturk that held for almost 100 years is done. Turkey will raise tomorrow to a most likely a religious country then ever with a president that have the power of a dictator and in control of one of the strongest armies in the world, while he is holding hands with Iran and supporting the extremist Jihad.

The Daash country is risen in what was before Iraq and Syria.

Wake up Europe.

Now you'll decide where you want to put Israel in the next wave of changing power. In the west block or in the east block? or are you counting on Finlands' army to come and rescue you.

[mistyronin 1181]

First the Geneva convention rules declare that if a civilian site is used for military purpose is no longer protected under Geneva laws.

Your reading comprehension is somehow lacking. First I talked about UN shelters.

BTW you seem to know better even that the UN and the ICRC themselves about their conventions... If not why the UN and the ICRC have complained about Israel :rolleyes:

Second, Israel is a country established by a democratic voting by the UN, Palestine was never a country, most of them are work immigrants from the early 19th so your argument is invalid. So we have the right to protect established by UN's country.

I have already shown you the data from the Israel own demographics service. Are you trying to tell me that even the Israel official data is false? :rolleyes:

BTW the UN plan was never putted on action so, so there is no UN established country.

You are taking side with a terror organization and neglect to ask: "Is my favorite terror organization, the Hamas is obeying the Geneva laws of war?"

Again you are inventing and flame-baiting. What favorite terror organization? And of who?

BTW as far as I know the only ones that must respect the laws of war are the legit armies not terrorist organizations. I think we all agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

This why it calls asymmetric war - and if my enemy doesn't obey the Geneva laws why would we get out of ourselves try to obey them.

WTF? You really have a twisted idea of how the Geneva and armies conventions work.

Now you'll decide where you want to put Israel in the next wave of changing power. In the west block or in the east block? or are you counting on Finlands' army to come and rescue you.

First and as I have repeated a lot of times but you never read and prefer inventing, I'm not a Finnish citizen, I'm a EU resident in Finland ( BTW my country is member of the NATO so you know in what block I'm ).

---------- Post added at 15:10 ---------- Previous post was at 15:07 ----------

I think that we should be very careful before accepting any numbers, especially since it does seem that Hamas's most powerful weapon is the number of dead civilians it can claim. I don't say this in any attempt to marginalize civilian deaths, but only to offer additional context to the numbers we see splashed across headlines every day.

Ok. Let's read the last UN report ( we agree that the UN is a neutral organization and doesn't take part ):

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_sitrep_08_08_2014.pdf

1,922 Palestinians killed, including at least 1,407 civilians, of whom 448 are children and 235 are women

[invisibull 0]

Ok. Let's read the last UN report ( we agree that the UN is a neutral organization and doesn't take part ):

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_sitrep_08_08_2014.pdf

It seems like you fell into the very trap of uncritically accepting casualty figures that the BBC/NY Times analysis cautioned against. If you read the U.N. report closely you'll notice that even the report itself contains the following important caveat about the veracity of its data:

Data on fatalities and destruction of property is consolidated by the Protection and Shelter clusters based on preliminary information, and is subject to change based on further verifications

And if that isn't reason enough to proceed with caution, the fact that nowhere in that estimation are we told what methodology was employed to differentiate between dead civilians and dead combatants, (particularly in light of the NY Times study quoted above) should serve to give us additional pause. Given that civilian deaths are such an important part of Hamas's propaganda efforts, i think it's pretty clear that these numbers are next to meaningless at this juncture. And while they certainly make for sensational headlines, they are all but worthless as objective data.

And no, i certainly don't agree that the U.N. is a neutral organization. Blithely assuming objectivity in such a politically motivated organization makes no sense to me at all.

If you'd actually go back and read what the BBC and NY Times have to say about the casualty figures in Gaza, and then factor in the U.N.'s reservations about its own data, the only logical conclusion to be drawn is that it will be some time, if ever, before we have a valid understanding of who and how many died during this latest extremely unfortunate flare up in the Gaza Strip.

[mistyronin 1181]

If you'd actually go back and read what the BBC and NY Times have to say about the casualty figures in Gaza, and then factor in the U.N.'s reservations about its own data, the only logical conclusion to be drawn is that it will be some time, if ever, before we have a valid understanding of who and how many died during this latest extremely unfortunate flare up in the Gaza Strip.

Of course that these are not the final data. It's the data collected to the moment of the release of the document, which mean the bodies counted and processed. Obviously there are a lot of corpses still to be discovered and could be a few miscounts ( but those are rare ).

But it's impossible to have the complete data at the moment in that kind of events. When I was in the army I worked precisely with rescue workers in similar situations and saw first hand how they work ( my unit was first in Bosnia and then in Iraq, technically as a peacekeeper unit ).

IMO the UN as a organization is probably one of the more neutral organizations, with the exception of the Security Council, which is another kind of fish.