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defk0n_NL

crosshair, third person and zoom needs to be rookie difficulty

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i puke a little bit in my mouth every time someone says weapons or ai are unrealistic

You know what really is unrealistic? having some super vision where you can see outside of your body and get a perfect cross in the middle of the screen while being able to zoom in like a hawk.

why does this have to be the default setting? i dont get it.

there are maybe 1 or 2 multiplayer servers that have no third person and exactly 0 servers that have no crosshair. all the invade and annex servers have switched to support third person because else none comes anymore.

Not a single life server that supports firstperson only its actually kind of sad how big of a moneygrab these server operators are. (i wish bis would crack down on that btw.)

these setting should be on rookie/novice difficulty it takes all the fun immersion and skill away from this game.

please discuss.

PS: first person does not actually cause motion sickness. motion sickness is because the fov is too high so you cant distinguish fine details

default arma is 70 degrees fov. 60 degrees really helps with that besides looking totally fkng badass.

http://i.imgur.com/du10B9K.jpg (337 kB)

fovTop=0.63;
fovLeft=1.12;

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Would it change anything if the setting wasn't the default? Server owners could still change it, right? Or do you think they are so clueless that they wouldn't know how to enable it on their server? :confused:

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Would it change anything if the setting wasn't the default? Server owners could still change it, right? Or do you think they are so clueless that they wouldn't know how to enable it on their server? :confused:

well ofc but even one or two server is better then how it is now. right now you basically have to go play project reality if you want realism and multiplayer.

which is depressing if you bought this game for the military realism

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I agree that third person shouldn't be there most of the time, it just leads to people using it to look around things without exposing themselves, which is bad for gameplay. The cross hair in Arma 3 is I think a necessary evil as it allows you to see whether or not the barrel of your weapon is actually clearing the cover you're using; information which is immediately obvious in real life. I view the zoom as necessary as well as spotting targets at range is next to impossible without it, much harder than seeing similarly sized objects at that distance in reality. Though I suppose that effect is reduced fr those with very large and high resolution monitors.

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Would it change anything if the setting wasn't the default? Server owners could still change it, right? Or do you think they are so clueless that they wouldn't know how to enable it on their server? :confused:

I'd say at least 10% of those servers sit on "regular" with 3rd person just because it's the default :) It's not exactly trivial to change that for a dedi server.

Besides, new players coming in the game play on the "regular" settings at first; then get used to it and then start to rationalize it.

I agree with OP in the point related to 3rd person.

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I agree that third person shouldn't be there most of the time, it just leads to people using it to look around things without exposing themselves, which is bad for gameplay. The cross hair in Arma 3 is I think a necessary evil as it allows you to see whether or not the barrel of your weapon is actually clearing the cover you're using; information which is immediately obvious in real life. I view the zoom as necessary as well as spotting targets at range is next to impossible without it, much harder than seeing similarly sized objects at that distance in reality. Though I suppose that effect is reduced fr those with very large and high resolution monitors.

you can clear the cover with iron sights and optics also. i assume that you would shoot with optics unless under heavy fire in which case you should not be able to determine so clearly where you are shooting at (not that its that hard to figure out if you shoot over or under with a little bit of practice)

also zoom i see why people would prefer zoom because its a conveinince people grew into but whats the point of binoculars if you can zoom as much as is currently possible. i dont think alot of players use binocs that often which is why it should be there for.

no zoom adds alot to the experience. maybe have zoom tied to the stamina linearly like no stam no zoom or no zoom when moving or something

the terrain is not made for zoom also. people stick out like sore thumbs once you move past the foliage border

Edited by defk0n_NL

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Perhaps third person should be removed from Veteran difficulty. I disagree on everything else.

You're wrong, at the very least, in claiming that high FOVs cause motion sickness. In many (most?) people, high FOV's -- around 80 - 120 -- help alleviate motion sickness. Using an FOV that is too narrow -- which I believe 60 is -- is like walking around with low power binoculars or reading glasses held up to your face, depending on how low the FOV actually is.

Beyond that, FOV is more complex than you make it sound. I've seen it stated around here that the default FOV in Arma is set up minimize distortion as much as possible. That's all well and good, but it doesn't simulate our actual field of view. It's like looking through a window the size of your computer monitor. This means that moving around with the default FOV in Arma is kind of like walking around with an old school diving helmet on. Some games have a higher FOV, allowing for some minor distortion in the name of granting players more situational awareness. Other games -- often in the horror genre decide to set the FOV unnaturally low in order to create a sense of claustrophobia or to make a game feel more like watching a movie. The really good games (in my opinion) allow users to set their FOV directly in the options menu.

Furthermore, zoom serves an important function in Arma, in which action often takes place across larger distances than a typical shooter. Even with an FOV of 60 degrees, it's unlikely you'll have the fidelity of vision in Arma that you would in real life. We can see and distinguish things in real life that you can't in a video game because they're only being drawn as a couple of dozen pixels or less. The zoom function makes up for that deficiency in the game renderer and gives players the ability to have both a more accurate level of situational awareness as well as identify and distinguish objects at more realistic distances.

Also, your aspect ratio is all messed up in that screenshot. You can tell because things that are supposed to be circles (the lense of the optic) are squished horizontally into ovals.

edit:

you can clear the cover with iron sights and optics also. i assume that you would shoot with optics unless under heavy fire in which case you should not be able to determine so clearly where you are shooting at (not that its that hard to figure out if you shoot over or under with a little bit of practice)

Since bullets don't come out of the iron sights or optics, no you can't.

The crosshair was also redesigned in Arma 3. It's designed to reflect the ability of humans to determine roughly where they are pointing an object that they are holding. It's kind of like how you can point at something fairly accurately without thinking about it. Basically, you should be able to fairly accurately engage targets at relatively close ranges without specifically aiming down the sights. Perhaps the crosshairs need to be widened a bit and not scale with zoom to more realistically limit how accurately players can engage targets at distance.

Edited by roshnak

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Perhaps third person should be removed from Veteran difficulty. I disagree on everything else.

You're wrong, at the very least, in claiming that high FOVs cause motion sickness. In many (most?) people, high FOV's -- around 80 - 120 -- help alleviate motion sickness. Using an FOV that is too narrow -- which I believe 60 is -- is like walking around with low power binoculars or reading glasses held up to your face, depending on how low the FOV actually is.

Beyond that, FOV is more complex than you make it sound. I've seen it stated around here that the default FOV in Arma is set up minimize distortion as much as possible. That's all well and good, but it doesn't simulate our actual field of view. It's like looking through a window the size of your computer monitor. This means that moving around with the default FOV in Arma is kind of like walking around with an old school diving helmet on. Some games have a higher FOV, allowing for some minor distortion in the name of granting players more situational awareness. Other games -- often in the horror genre decide to set the FOV unnaturally low in order to create a sense of claustrophobia or to make a game feel more like watching a movie. The really good games (in my opinion) allow users to set their FOV directly in the options menu.

Furthermore, zoom serves an important function in Arma, in which action often takes place across larger distances than a typical shooter. Even with an FOV of 60 degrees, it's unlikely you'll have the fidelity of vision in Arma that you would in real life. We can see and distinguish things in real life that you can't in a video game because they're only being drawn as a couple of dozen pixels or less. The zoom function makes up for that deficiency in the game renderer and gives players the ability to have both a more accurate level of situational awareness as well as identify and distinguish objects at more realistic distances.

Also, your aspect ratio is all messed up in that screenshot. You can tell because things that are supposed to be circles (the lense of the optic) are squished vertically into ovals.

yes my aspect ratio is kinda borked it was a example screenshot that even low fov is not terrible on 1600x900. normally i play 2560x1440. what you are stating regarding zoom is not totally correct. in real life you can view more detail but there is also more detail to actually see. in arma you bushes/grass etc dont render beyond a certain distance. zoom in this case only helps me immediately seeing where im getting shot from. long range battles should be fought with scopes not with first person zoom.

lastly indoor shooters make 60degrees field of view really feel claustrophobic. but seeing arma 3 is massive i dont see how that can negatively effect things. you should try the fov settings i made in original post. high fov also decreases depth perception

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yes my aspect ratio is kinda borked it was a example screenshot that even low fov is not terrible on 1600x900. normally i play 2560x1440. what you are stating regarding zoom is not totally correct. in real life you can view more detail but there is also more detail to actually see. in arma you bushes/grass etc dont render beyond a certain distance. zoom in this case only helps me immediately seeing where im getting shot from. long range battles should be fought with scopes not with first person zoom.

lastly indoor shooters make 60degrees field of view really feel claustrophobic. but seeing arma 3 is massive i dont see how that can negatively effect things. you should try the fov settings i made in original post. high fov also decreases depth perception

I believe that zoom also causes LODs to update, so zooming in should make trees and bushes more detailed than they were when you were zoomed out.

I don't really see how being in an open area makes a low FOV feel that different. I'm already playing at a significantly lower FOV than I would like. Narrowing it would make the game very unpleasant for me.

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I believe that zoom also causes LODs to update, so zooming in should make trees and bushes more detailed than they were when you were zoomed out.

I don't really see how being in an open area makes a low FOV feel that different. I'm already playing at a significantly lower FOV than I would like. Narrowing it would make the game very unpleasant for me.

low FOV feels very different in a open area especially when you can look around. in real life the high awareness that comes from a large field of view helps you determine priority in highly detailed situations. in arma i would not call the environment coming even close to real life. in arma a high fov i feel is actually detrmimental because combined with zoom in feature its a super crutch. i can basically just run around wait for someone to shoot me and turn around and basically smoke him in a instant.

objects do have different lods i would not say the detail is increased that much on zoom in. it becomes more defined but not more detailed perse.

The crosshair was also redesigned in Arma 3. It's designed to reflect the ability of humans to determine roughly where they are pointing an object that they are holding. It's kind of like how you can point at something fairly accurately without thinking about it. Basically, you should be able to fairly accurately engage targets at relatively close ranges without specifically aiming down the sights. Perhaps the crosshairs need to be widened a bit and not scale with zoom to more realistically limit how accurately players can engage targets at distance.

Yes but how does is that different from actually estimating where your barrel is pointing at. i am pretty sure you cannot hip fire your weapon with the accuracy that arma allows with a crosshair. i feel that crosshairs are also a crutch. especially with no aiming deadzone you basically know that where ever you look you will shoot in the middle. how does a crosshair even come close to justifying more accuracy?

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Yes but how does is that different from actually estimating where your barrel is pointing at. i am pretty sure you cannot hip fire your weapon with the accuracy that arma allows with a crosshair. i feel that crosshairs are also a crutch. especially with no aiming deadzone you basically know that where ever you look you will shoot in the middle. how does a crosshair even come close to justifying more accuracy?

No, you can't hip-fire with that accuracy. But in Arma 3 you never fire that way; the rifle is always firmly in the shoulder, and you get a pretty good idea where you weapon is pointing without using the sights in reality. Also you cannot always see whether the barrel is clearing cover while using irons; often the sights will get a clear view but the barrel won't be. This makes the crosshair pretty vital in determining whether or not you're clear to fire, especially with the very precise adjustments allowed by the stance system. Yes these systems are crutches - necessary ones to give us the information that isn't immediately obvious otherwise but which is needed for gameplay and/or realism, with other examples being the stance display or weapon fire mode indicator. (not including third person in that, to be clear) That's just my take though, but I think it's one that many would agree with; there's nothing to stop you from running your own server with the settings you want though.

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In Arma, the default horizontal field of view is 90°, not 70° (assuming a 16:9 display). See this thread: Some facts about zoom and Field of View (FOV) in Arma.

The zoom function in Arma allows the player to see fine details when required, while retaining awareness granted by a high FOV. A dynamic FOV better emulates the capabilities the human eye than a static FOV, since modern displays don't have the resolution or size to match the capabilities of real vision (Human eyes provide angular resolution of 0.0167 degrees, while Arma with a 1920x1080 display gives 0.0277 degrees per pixel (soldier zoomed in view).

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Maybe the zoom should be something like that game Insurgency. Thing is, you cant zoom, but rather the screen moves a bit closer to your sights, and you focus center, and the sides are blurred, but center scope is crystal clear.

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Higher FOV makes you motion sick? Are you kidding? It's the other way around.

And btw I set my FOV from 70° to 74° using ARMA 3 FOV calculator (http://hia3.com/tools/ArmA_3_wide-angle_FOV_calculator_online_by_Hi,A3.htm) and it made a huge difference. First person feels much better. Third person feels much worse. Not that I care, I never use third person except when I'm driving a tank.

Using a 16:10 monitor, if that helps.

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I don't even have 20/20 vision (it's slightly worse), but I can tell you for a fact that the standard non-zoomed in view is nowhere even close to the detail a human can distinguish at long ranges. The issue is because our view is digital, and in real life your view is analog/resolutionless. I play on a moderately large monitor (1920x1080), and at long ranges a unit will appear as only a few stacked pixels, but would be distinguishable in real life. I might add that at certain ranges, some units don't show up at all unless zoomed. This is one gripe I have with their LODs, but perhaps it saves frames and whatnot.

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Maybe the zoom should be something like that game Insurgency. Thing is, you cant zoom, but rather the screen moves a bit closer to your sights, and you focus center, and the sides are blurred, but center scope is crystal clear.

I haven't played it but according to youtube, aiming down sights does zoom in a bit. Moving the camera 15cm closer to target at 200m doesn't really help with eyesight. :)

The zoom function in Arma allows the player to see fine details when required, while retaining awareness granted by a high FOV. A dynamic FOV better emulates the capabilities the human eye than a static FOV, since modern displays don't have the resolution or size to match the capabilities of real vision (Human eyes provide angular resolution of 0.0167 degrees, while Arma with a 1920x1080 display gives 0.0277 degrees per pixel (soldier zoomed in view).

Exactly. Already all scopes on guns and vehicles are a little "overpowered" because the magnified view is always less detailed and less cluttered than with naked eye so it's easier to spot targets. The difference is much bigger than IRL. Without the zoom we would be totally blind with naked eyes.

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There is no zoom in ArmA exept for vehicles, What the OP calls "zooom" is just the narrow fov with a natural size of objects that they have in the real world if you use a 26" display. The only zoom in arma is that zooming out for a natural Field of view but that way you can't tell a chicken from a rabbit at 30meters. Sittign for a compuer screen using a mouse and keybord is no substutute for real worl feel so some workaroudn have to be used, otherweise its like runnign around with a cardbord box around your head.

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regarding zoom i see alot of people comparing it to real life 1:1 which is not reasonable i think. as i said earlier arma details does not equate to real life detail.

They way the game zooms in now i can basically spot targets with the naked eye 300-600 meters out sitting on a hill, hows that for realism? i would argue that in order to maintain balance they should severely nerf zoom and speed up the binoculars animation.

binoculars would serve the same purpose as zooming in, i think only having zoom when your full stam would annoy more then solve the issue.

crutch is crutch

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regarding zoom i see alot of people comparing it to real life 1:1 which is not reasonable i think. as i said earlier arma details does not equate to real life detail.

They way the game zooms in now i can basically spot targets with the naked eye 300-600 meters out sitting on a hill, hows that for realism? i would argue that in order to maintain balance they should severely nerf zoom and speed up the binoculars animation.

binoculars would serve the same purpose as zooming in, i think only having zoom when your full stam would annoy more then solve the issue.

crutch is crutch

Yeah, that doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

Yes, these features are crutches. They are crutches that make up for inherit handicaps in video games.

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They way the game zooms in now i can basically spot targets with the naked eye 300-600 meters out sitting on a hill, hows that for realism?

That's perfectly reasonable, I can easily do that. While there is an issue with ground foliage not extending out all the way, which makes people easier to spot, the answer to improve realism certainly isn't to make observing distant targets more difficult than in reality. Also 'just using binoculars' isn't a viable alternative; if everyone is getting out binos every 5 seconds that will look absolutely stupid, and take us further from realism, not closer. You're entitled to your opinion of course but I really don't think that removing zoom as the default is likely to happen and it certainly wouldn't be well received.

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That's perfectly reasonable, I can easily do that. While there is an issue with ground foliage not extending out all the way, which makes people easier to spot, the answer to improve realism certainly isn't to make observing distant targets more difficult than in reality. Also 'just using binoculars' isn't a viable alternative; if everyone is getting out binos every 5 seconds that will look absolutely stupid, and take us further from realism, not closer. You're entitled to your opinion of course but I really don't think that removing zoom as the default is likely to happen and it certainly wouldn't be well received.

you can spot someone with the naked eye, laying down or sitting stationary in grass or gravel from 300-600m away with camo clothing on?

color me impressed :icon_rolleyes:

your also not supposed to take out your binocs out every 5 seconds unless you really want to. not everything should be in your immediate control. if someone snipes you from 600m away. i doubt you would calmly proceed to counter snipe them with the naked eye. i running to cover and occasionally poking your head out with binocs + suppresive fire etc would seem more reasonable.

or have a teammate spot and you shoot, like actual teamwork.

Edited by defk0n_NL

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you can spot someone with the naked eye, laying down or sitting stationary in grass or gravel from 300-600m away with camo clothing on?

No, but you could spot someone standing or moving at that distance, which is something you couldn't do in Arma without the zoom ability. I guess it's just a matter of what is more important to you. I have to say, it sounds like what you really have a problem with is Arma's camouflage mechanics over large distances.

Also, I don't understand why you think the zoom is a replacement for binoculars. You understand they have a higher magnification than the zoom does, right? If zoom was such a broken thing, people wouldn't be throwing magnified optics on everything, which they are.

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Oh no,

another "crosshair off is realistic" thread...

No it is not, if you ask me. It was discussed many times.

This thread is a product of ignorance about how things work and how there is a need to compensate for them in virtual environments (Crosshair, zoom, 3rd person view).

Study the human body a little, please, before you create another of such threads.

Edited by Bouben

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To the OP - thanks for TELLING me how to play MY game. If I want to have my own game in shocking pink, with an aimbot, and fluffy unicorns running around then that is up to me.

It is up to the mission and the server to decide on first or third person and any other rules regarding mods etc.

I'm not sure how your eyes work, but mine can see about 120degrees either side from front. Although I agree that a higher FOV can lead to motion sickness (actually it just looks ODD!) putting it to 60 doesn't make you badass. If anything it restricts what you should be able to see quite drastically. What IS needed is a high FOV where the world doesn't fisheye like it does at present.

So do I want to be forced into a particular playmode - sometimes, but don't take away my unicorns !

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^ very serious... DO NOT F**K WITH THIS MAN's UNICORNS!!!

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