ICRC authorization

[anthariel 165]

Hi everyone, I'm coming to you because I have a question concerning my campaign Under the eagle eye.

I'd like to use the ICRC logo in some missions (on gear, uniforms, vehicles...) however I fear it's forbidden by the contest's rules :confused:

Am I allowed to use the ICRC logo or should I contact them for authorization?

Thank.

Regards,

Anthariel.

[mistyronin 1181]

I'd like to use the ICRC logo in some missions (on gear, uniforms, vehicles...) however I fear it's forbidden by the contest's rules :confused:

Use the red diamond.

[anthariel 165]

Hi MistyRonin, thank for your reply.

I had not really thought about this option, thank you.

I would also like to know if there are no worries (I guess not) regarding the integration of ICRC in the competition (direct dialogues speaking of ICRC).

Thank you.

[ChristianRouffaer 10]

Hello Anthariel,

As a general rule the ICRC is not against the use of the emblems (Red Cross, Red Crescent or Red Cristal) in video games as long as they are used properly. I’ll quote one of our top experts on this topic who wrote to me recently about that that.

Quote

…the emblems may of course be represented in virtual representation of a conflict zone, provided the emblem’s representations conform at all time with the uses defined and permitted under IHL and are not detrimental to the prestige and respect of the emblem and its protective function.

Unquote

Like MistyRonin said, you can use the Red Cristal like in the original ARMA 3 version. You can also give different emblems to different factions but, please, do not mix emblems in the same faction (prohibited). I would advise you not to use the ICRC logo as it cannot be deployed by any other organization (on hospitals, medical vehicles, etc.) in conflict zone (for example: the use of the Red Cross/Crescent/Cristal emblems on hospital during peacetime is prohibited, only your national Red

Cross/Crescent national society and your armed forces are allowed to use them during peacetime). Real armed forces would never ever use the ICRC logo.

Please have a look at this document:

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/publication/p4057.htm

It’s a very long document but, in fact, it’s just a kind of Q&A. You will find in this document all the rules attached to the use of the emblems. You can also post your questions on this forum (maybe in a new thread in the “health care in danger†section) and I would try providing answers as quickly as possible.

Cheers

[anthariel 165]

Thank you for taking the time to answer me ChristianRouffaer!

That answers my question, so I'll use the Red Crystal instead of the original logo, thank you very much.

Anthariel.

[IndeedPete 1038]

Well, a read cross on a white background could also be considered as simple geometry and thus not protectable by copyright law. At least wikipedia states that under some of their images, countries' flags for example. However, I'm no lawyer.

[ChristianRouffaer 10]

Good morning IndeedPete,

I would agree with you in the case the Red Cross would just be a commercial brand or logo. Fortunately, it’s not the case and copyright is not the issue here. Hereunder 2 extracts from that book I mentioned in one of my previous messages. As you will see, unlike the Red Cross/Crescent/Cristal emblems, no soda or car brands are specifically protected by an international law

Quote

The emblem

The red cross emblem used by the ICRC is obviously the emblem per se, i.e., a red cross on a white background, in its original form and without alteration or addition.

The red cross emblem was recognized under the 1864 Geneva Convention and has been confirmed by subsequent Conventions. The Commentary on GC I declares that “[t]he protective sign, consisting of a red cross on a white ground, as prescribed by the Geneva Convention, should always be displayed in its original form, without alteration or addition.â€

“The Proceedings of the Diplomatic Conference of 1906 are, moreover, explicit: the Conference deliberately refrained from defining the form of the cross, since definition might have led to dangerous abuses. The reasons are clear. If the form of the cross had been rigidly defined, attempts might have been made to justify attacks on installations protected by the Convention, on the pretext that the emblems displayed were not of the prescribed dimensions. Similarly, unscrupulous persons could have taken advantage of a rigid definition to use a slightly larger or slightly smaller red cross for commercial purposes.

For the same reasons, the Convention does not specify the shape of the white ground or the exact shade of red in the cross, as Switzerland has done for its flag.â€

Unquote

So even if the cross is not nicely done and the background is more grey than white (I can tell you that our flag in Bangkok is very grey due to the atmospheric pollution…), it's still an emblem and not just geometry.

Best regards,

Christian

[IndeedPete 1038]

Ah, I see, thanks for sharing that info. It's sad but since A3 takes place in 2035 you could also make up a similar "new" organisation and create your own logo for it I guess.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Real armed forces would never ever use the ICRC logo.

It's been used plenty in the past. I think it was used during the Vietnam War, and I know for a fact it was used during WWII by Germany and possibly Italy. I would think it would be best to show the true face of war, as the nasty and heartless instrument of power and greed and revenge that it is. While it's not necessary to use the Red Cross or Crescent, etc. (Just the Diamond, as used by BI) keeping the vehicles and buildings painted with it completely neutral just portrays a fanciful view of conflict, one that sugarcoats just how far humanity can sink in a time of war. I'm not saying anybody who uses it for MANW should portray it's misuse as the right thing to do, as it is a war crime and should be treated as such, but the important thing to remember is that war isn't black and white, and no nation ever follows every rule. Look at Iraq, where AA/AAA and Scuds and all manner of military equipment was parked up against mosques and hospitals and children's schools. The world isn't a nice place, and sugarcoating that get's us nowhere.

[ChristianRouffaer 10]

Good morning Darkhorse,

To start from the end of your message, I cannot agree more when you are saying that nothing is black or white. Most of the time it’s 15 shades of grey… ;-)

About the ICRC logo. Just to clarify what we are talking about. This is the ICRC logo:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ICRC_Logo.png

This is a good exemple from the field:

http://www.icrc.org/fre/resources/documents/photo-gallery/photos-emblem-271005.htm

Armed forces are authorized to use any of the 3 protective emblems (Red Crescent, Red Cross or Red crystal) before or during an armed conflict (but not on Chinese medicine clinics in peace time…). In the first chapter of the ICRC doctrine, it’s specified that wounded, sick our “out of combat†soldiers are our priority. The Red Cross “emerged†from a battlefield (Solferino 1859) so it’s naturally where it belongs.

Medical personnel and their vehicles must be clearly identified with one of the 3 protective emblems. The army medical personnel can carry a weapon to protect themselves and their patients (hand weapons, assault rifles but no sniper rifles or rocket launchers!). The vehicles can be armored and of any types (Ships, APC, helicopters, etc). If you saw the ICRC logo used on an army vehicle, this was very wrong and against all rules I know. I went to several conflict zones since 2001 and I never faced this kind of issue. Most of the time our emblem is slightly modified my NGOs who would like to show they are providing medical services. The simple fact most peoples around the world link the Red Cross and medical services is already an achievement. Now we need to make sure they won’t shoot at it!

I agree with you that “sugarcoating†games is not a good idea. Since the beginning of the ICRC project on video games, we asked video games publishers to add more authenticity to their products. We strongly oppose the idea that civilians should be removed from games. Most of the fighting are taking place in urban settings and the destruction of civilian’s buildings seems to be one of the most popular activities offered to the fans of those games. Some game editors said: we removed civilians because gamers will shoot them. Well… this is “sugarcoating†to me! Bring the civilians back in and explain to the gamers they cannot shoot at everything that move in front of them! Same for ambulances, hospitals and army medical doctors who tend to be mostly good at using grenade launchers and shocking enemies with their defibrillators…

Best regards,

Christian

---------- Post added at 02:33 ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 ----------

Ah, I see, thanks for sharing that info. It's sad but since A3 takes place in 2035 you could also make up a similar "new" organisation and create your own logo for it I guess.

Hi IndeedPete,

The creation of a new “futuristic†emblem or international humanitarian organization for ARMA3 is, of course, possible. The fact the conflict in ARMA3 is happening in 2035 is not really an issue as the ICRC’s birthday is 1859… I thing we will still exist in 2035!

If you decide to create your own protective emblem, please make it very different than the original Red Cross emblem… Blue crosses, pink crosses, yellow crosses are everywhere and it’s confusing!

Once you have your new emblem, for example the “green meatballâ€, you will have to inform gamers about it. Warning gamers, shooting at vehicles painted with the “green meatball†emblem will be considered a crime…

This is why most people prefer to use one of the emblems or create (and this is wrong) something slightly different but still recognizable as something similar to the Red Cross/Crescent/Crystal. Everywhere you are in the world, when you are looking for the infirmary in an airport, even if you don’t speak a word of the local language. What “symbol†are you looking for? I guess not the “green meatballâ€!

So my piece of advice, stick to the stuff 99% of the people knows and help ICRC making sure it’s respected.

Best regards,

Christian