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idhronphant

Third person mode & realism

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To claim not being able to sense your own body is realistic is also plainly wrong.

And where did I claim that ?

Why wouldn't moving the camera closer work? Why does first-person and third-person have to be drastically different? Isn't that the exact issue that brought us all here?

I believe my solution would work excellently. Bring the camera in closer as in Resident Evil 4 or Gears of War. Never had any similar issues in them.

The problem with a closer camera is, I think, that the "gain" in overview isn't big enough. I mean, why do people want third person camera ? To get a better overview of the situation... that overview comes from the camera being positions behind and slightly above you.

If you think it solves the problem: It should be possible to create a mod that places the third person camera... try it, and you'll be able to verify your theory.

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I've watched youtube vids of trackir but don't think I'd like it because it's unnatural and I'd probably get motion sickness.

For example if you turn your head left with TlR, you still have to keep your eyes swivelled right to see the monitor and vice versa, so your head would be twisting like a ventriloquists dummy but your eyes would have to stay locked on the screen.

And from what I can see of it, there's still no way to get a good look at your own character.

If you want to see the field of view of TrackIR just use alt-mouse today. You can basically see what you head sees in trackIR. If you want to see more of your body sit down. You can't see your back like you can in third person, but I can't naturally see my back. TrackIR is easier and more natural that alt-mouse but you are right it took little getting use to and calibrating to get the motion to feel natural. But once tuned you don't ever go back. Everyone that has actually used my setup has bought it. Arma first person, flight sims, driving game, it makes it feel a lot more realistic. It's the closest thing until the Rift shows up.

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I love third person in Arma 3, i like to see my character or my vehicle moving in game, even better when I can switch between the 2, there's no problem for me joining a server that has it disabled or I'm not bothered if it's not disabled as everyone is on the same playing field.

In terms of realism I care not as with either view I know I'm only controlling a virtual body in a simulated world, seeing it and playing it in first or third does not change any realism aspect for me. But then I'm more the mess around in the editor, test missions/scripts/mods type of player.

The ability to see over walls in third is of course completely no realistic, but then in reality you have the ability to peek through holes and or other gaps to get a view which you can't do in game.

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The ability to see over walls in third is of course completely no realistic, but then in reality you have the ability to peek through holes and or other gaps to get a view which you can't do in game.

I can with stance adjust.

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:08 ----------

Let's clear some confusion that I had too.

3ds person does not give you much bigger image.The difference is few meters.

Field of view is the same in both.

Only thing that is changed is camera: Which is located higher and behind character.

Which is causing problems with over the wall peak and watching things behind you

where is not possible in life.

1st_zpsb8250e7f.jpg

3rd_zps8683afc9.jpg

Edited by enex

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Old test but gives overall 'player' gain in 3rd person. Of course its much easier than 1st person, you could of course use dfs_3rdperson and bring the camera in, I have it pulled out for testing, as seen. Could put the camera on the units shoulder or slightly right or left of his head, also pulled in would keep that players gain lower and therefore a little more on a level with 1st person. Its good for testing, but to me its only for testing, playing has to be 1st person really.

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And where did I claim that ?

The problem with a closer camera is, I think, that the "gain" in overview isn't big enough. I mean, why do people want third person camera ? To get a better overview of the situation... that overview comes from the camera being positions behind and slightly above you.

If you think it solves the problem: It should be possible to create a mod that places the third person camera... try it, and you'll be able to verify your theory.

Where did anyone claim that being able to see over walls is more realistic?

And you need to make up your mind if you want 3rd person to be an overview cheat or not ;)

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Again, wouldn't disabling alt-freelook in 3rd person mode (and lowering the position of the camera a tad) resolve most of the issues that people are having a problem with while maintaining the features that 3rd person users claim they want (like being able to see their soldier)?

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Again, wouldn't disabling alt-freelook in 3rd person mode (and lowering the position of the camera a tad) resolve most of the issues that people are having a problem with while maintaining the features that 3rd person users claim they want (like being able to see their soldier)?

I tried it but he can still see over walls, unless I've misunderstood you.

Incidentally, so far we've hardly mentioned tanks, that's where 1st person really sucks because no driver wants to spend the whole game confined to looking through the tiny letterbox slit in front of him.

Even worse, if the tank is hit, it could be on fire and how would he know if he can't go to 3rd person to look the tank over?

In the real world he'd at least be able to smell burning!

PS- and as people have said, nobody's trying to convert the whole community to play with or without 1st or 3rd, it's just a matter of personal preference..:)

Edited by PoorOldSpike

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Incidentally, so far we've hardly mentioned tanks, that's where 1st person really sucks because no driver wants to spend the whole game confined to looking through the tiny letterbox slit in front of him.

Even worse, if the tank is hit, it could be on fire and how would he know if he can't go to 3rd person to look the tank over?

Problem with tanks is they didn't give drivers the ability to hatch out. I have no idea why BI designed their tanks this way. For combat you should be hatched in. But for driving around opening a hatch for extra visibility should have been an option.

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The T100 is the only MBT in which the driver can turn-out.

3rd person eliminates the effects of supression against a player whether playing against humans or AI and is the principle reason I play my serious coop sessions in 1st person.

Also, the example of not knowing if ypu have a launcher on your back was terrible. In my opinion one of the best features of the Arma game has always been the ability for a player to independently move their characters head by using the Alt key or track-ir style set up.

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Yeah I don't know why they modeled a bunch of armor without the ability to open the hatch and turn-out for the driver. They did on a number of armored vehicles. My favorite is the Gorgon. It's turn-out view is pretty cool too bad the wiper didn't work.

I also wish they offered more 6dof support on more vehicles. The pawnee and humingbird are done really well. With trackIR you can stick your head out the door and look all the way back to look at your tail rotor.

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you couldnt be any more wrong, the field of view is different between 1st and 3rd person view, lets say your hiding behind a rock cause your under fire, in first PV all you can see is a rock, in 3rd PV you can see beyond that rock and see where there firing position is without exposing your self, same as looking around buildings your hiding behind

Have you by any chance missed the part where i said the camera is few meters back...i don't know but i think that, it might you know change where your view is pointing at

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Have you by any chance missed the part where i said the camera is few meters back...i don't know but i think that, it might you know change where your view is pointing at

your quote "and the field of view is the same in 1st person and in 3rd the only difference is that the 3rd person is a few meters back, and you can't see what is directly in your front like a small rock that will block your path"

you very clearly stated that 1st person and 3rd person are the same apart from you cant see directly in front of you ???

again i stand by what i wrote !!

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From what i said and quote "Is that the 3rd person is a few meters back...don't that make any difference?" or you don't think

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Where did anyone claim that being able to see over walls is more realistic?

Uhm, where did I claim that someone claimed that ? You have the tendency to put stuff into my posts that just wasn't there, this isn't the first time you do it. Can you please stick to what I say, not to what YOU think I implied ? Thank you.

And you need to make up your mind if you want 3rd person to be an overview cheat or not ;)

I think you should first get an idea about what the problem is... again, it's not whether you see your character or not. It's about first person view being restrictive in that it narrows your view too much, much more than in real life (which is of course true, I don't know the default Arma 3 FOV, but it's not the 140 odd degree that the average human can see, not to mention peripheral vision).

Your idea of moving the 3rd person camera over the shoulder only shifts the view from the center of the players head to the right of the players head while keeping about the same height and moving it half a meter behind the player (that's at least the perspective you get in Resident Evil 5). I claim, though, that this perspective is only marginally different from the first person perspective since you basically just move the view a step to the side, and half a meter back. It will not "solve" the first person view problem.

Regarding making up my mind, if you really want to hear my opinion: I have always been against 3rd person view. I think it's ridiculous to even call it realistic as it will allow you to see things that you can't normally see. Dsylecxi's video clearly shows that. When playing SP, I like using third person perspective because I like to see my character, or the vehicle I'm driving/flying with. So, yeah, my mind is set, thank you. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

---------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------

The T100 is the only MBT in which the driver can turn-out.

Are you sure ? I was pretty certain the commander can turn out too

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Where did anyone claim that being able to see over walls is more realistic?

And you need to make up your mind if you want 3rd person to be an overview cheat or not ;)

I hear everybody claim that 3rd person view would be more realistic than 1st person view, so yeah, they are essentially saying that being able to look over walls and around corners is the more realistic option as opposed to a narrower field of view (which is already proven to be only a minor thing).

Pulling in the camera on your character will only diminish the already minute gain you get from the 3rd person.

The bottom line is, 3rd person is not a solution to the problem. It adds its own share of issues without adding much of a solution. The bottom line is there IS no solution to the problem, unless the game would not render stuff that the character cannot see, which it doesn't. So I really cannot follow any of the realism argument, because the moment a disembodied camera floats behind you that everybody abuses to look where they are not supposed to be able to look (and please, do not claim that "but I don't do that". Everybody does it, you can't even prevent it) realism goes out of the door.

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From what i said and quote "Is that the 3rd person is a few meters back...don't that make any difference?" or you don't think

i think im missing the point your trying to make ?

in 3rd person view you can see alot more as in being able to look round corners and see over walls without exposing yourself, you couldn't do that in 1st person view, for me at least it makes it very unrealistic to use 3rd person view,

personally i feel like your cheating the system in 3rd Person view

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Do you have a problem with English or what.......... ¬¬

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 ----------

"What are you guys expecting? that combat in real life isn't restricting? that i can peek around my cover without exposing my self? this doesn't exist" here i'm stating that being able to do stuff in combat without risking your life don't exist...and the field of view is the same in 1st person and in 3rd the only difference is that the 3rd person is a few meters back, and you can't see what is directly in your front like a small rock that will block your path".....here i'm arguing that the argument of the people who play 3rd person does not apply ..... you know......i'm asking again do you have a problem with English that even a Brazilian have better interpretation capabilities than you?

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Things like '1st person view is for pro's' and ' 3rd person is cheating' always makes me laught a bit. Just use it dynamically, 3rd for driving and for the long walks, and 1st person for combat/engagements.

The 'looking over walls' thing is only really cheating if you play PvP or play on large servers. For small coops it really does not matter besides your own opinion about it. The only thing I completely do in 1st person is flying, because it increases the immersion, Flying a jet in 3rd person looks so arcade.

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I've been playing the series for ages, honestly, the AI seem to see WAY better than most players seem to be able to, and if you're playing PVP, then I guess it only makes sense to turn it off.

Although it's gotten way better over the years, I'm still encountering situations where the AI can see me even though they should be obstructed, or at least the LOD for the obstacle from where I see them obscures the enemy and they can see me.

I like employing strategy when playing this game, but if you're playing against AI, and they already seem to have a better chance of seeing you, I don't see why it's a big deal.

Edited by Pd3

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Do you have a problem with English or what.......... ¬¬

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 ----------

"What are you guys expecting? that combat in real life isn't restricting? that i can peek around my cover without exposing my self? this doesn't exist" here i'm stating that being able to do stuff in combat without risking your life don't exist...and the field of view is the same in 1st person and in 3rd the only difference is that the 3rd person is a few meters back, and you can't see what is directly in your front like a small rock that will block your path".....here i'm arguing that the argument of the people who play 3rd person does not apply ..... you know......i'm asking again do you have a problem with English that even a Brazilian have better interpretation capabilities than you?

nice, mature enough to start throwing insults !!

you clearly dont understand the difference between the 2 views and im fed up with pointing them out so im done with it....

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I got it confirmed once again yesterday how much i love 1st person. Was forced to go prone right next to a gravel road and all of a sudden an Ifrit HMG is heading my way full speed.

I thought i was definitely gonna die but because he did not have some unrealistic camera angle 15 meters above the car he never saw me. The immersion at that moment was just insane :)

I was so close i could probably have reached out and touched the car as it passed!

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I got it confirmed once again yesterday how much i love 1st person. Was forced to go prone right next to a gravel road and all of a sudden an Ifrit HMG is heading my way full speed.

I thought i was definitely gonna die but because he did not have some unrealistic camera angle 15 meters above the car he never saw me. The immersion at that moment was just insane :)

I was so close i could probably have reached out and touched the car as it passed!

It's moments like this that make me think that people just need to give the so called "hard core" restrictions a try and see how great the gameplay become. People, try 1st person, try no respawn, and see what happens to your adrenalin levels.

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It's moments like this that make me think that people just need to give the so called "hard core" restrictions a try and see how great the gameplay become. People, try 1st person, try no respawn, and see what happens to your adrenalin levels.

This +++999. It's so much more engaging to play in first person.

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Uhm, where did I claim that someone claimed that ? You have the tendency to put stuff into my posts that just wasn't there, this isn't the first time you do it. Can you please stick to what I say, not to what YOU think I implied ? Thank you.

And where did I claim that you claimed that? ;) ;)

You: "The problem with 3d person is that you can see around or over walls, which you can't do in real life, so to claim it'S more realistic is plainly wrong. "

Me:"To claim not being able to sense your own body is realistic is also plainly wrong."

You: "And where did I claim that ? "

Me: "Where did anyone claim that being able to see over walls is more realistic?"

You: "Uhm, where did I claim that someone claimed that ? "

Your original quote was apparently an argument against 3rd person however your only argument was a truism, that being able to see over walls in 3rd person is unrealistic, which everyone already knows.

I thought stating a truism was a waste of space so I called you out on it by offering you a truism of my own: that not being able to sense your body is equally unrealistic.

Then you called me out on my truism by asking me where you had said my truism was wrong despite me not really having claimed that you said so anywhere.

So I called you out on that too asking where anyone claimed seeing over walls is realistic. Because you said a truism without anyone having implied anything else and that’s what I did too.

Your first fault was bringing a truism into the thread and your second fault was claiming I had claimed that you claimed my truism was wrong despite you having claimed a truism without anyone else having said anything that would necessitate it.

Your third fault is saying that I’m reading too much into what you’re writing when you have spent a good time asking me where you’ve claimed that being able to see your own body is unrealistic despite me never having said you claimed it.

So this is just going in a circle now anyways ;) What I originally wanted to call you out on was saying it is unrealistic to see over walls in 3rd person. Everyone already knows it so there’s no need to say it.

I think you should first get an idea about what the problem is... again, it's not whether you see your character or not. It's about first person view being restrictive in that it narrows your view too much, much more than in real life (which is of course true, I don't know the default Arma 3 FOV, but it's not the 140 odd degree that the average human can see, not to mention peripheral vision).

Your idea of moving the 3rd person camera over the shoulder only shifts the view from the center of the players head to the right of the players head while keeping about the same height and moving it half a meter behind the player (that's at least the perspective you get in Resident Evil 5). I claim, though, that this perspective is only marginally different from the first person perspective since you basically just move the view a step to the side, and half a meter back. It will not "solve" the first person view problem.

Regarding making up my mind, if you really want to hear my opinion: I have always been against 3rd person view. I think it's ridiculous to even call it realistic as it will allow you to see things that you can't normally see. Dsylecxi's video clearly shows that. When playing SP, I like using third person perspective because I like to see my character, or the vehicle I'm driving/flying with. So, yeah, my mind is set, thank you. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

---------- Post added at 09:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------

Are you sure ? I was pretty certain the commander can turn out too

I think you should also get an idea about what the problem is.

3rd-p is about seeing your character as many other users have already mentioned in the thread.

It is also about being able to see wider (as some have said though the camera field of view is unchanged in 3rd-p however measured from your character the field of view does increase) however if that was the only issue then why not just use zoom out?

That increases your field of view even wider than 3rd person does (correct me if I'm wrong).

So if the only issue was field of view then everyone could disable 3rd-person, start using zoom out double click and stop complaining now.

However 3rd-person both gives you a broader field of view, a higher field of view, lets you see your character which is useful for stancing and finally moves it up somewhat that gives you a better overview and allows cheating.

As someone who wants 3rd-person but not the way it currently is working I can tell you that the things I want from 3rd person are all of the above except the better overview and cheating.

Broader field of view is obviously desirable, a higher field of view lets you see something close to your feet without having to turn you head down which is realistic and seeing your body is very useful for determining if your body is sticking out around a corner.

A somewhat closer but more important height-locked camera would probably allow for all of these but without cheating. Maybe some modder can show this eventually.

Since you are against 3rd person I don't see why you object to 3rd person being turned into something closer to 1st person.

I agree the current 3rd person and the cheating it allows for shouldn't be in the game.

I hear everybody claim that 3rd person view would be more realistic than 1st person view, so yeah, they are essentially saying that being able to look over walls and around corners is the more realistic option as opposed to a narrower field of view (which is already proven to be only a minor thing).

Pulling in the camera on your character will only diminish the already minute gain you get from the 3rd person.

The bottom line is, 3rd person is not a solution to the problem. It adds its own share of issues without adding much of a solution. The bottom line is there IS no solution to the problem, unless the game would not render stuff that the character cannot see, which it doesn't. So I really cannot follow any of the realism argument, because the moment a disembodied camera floats behind you that everybody abuses to look where they are not supposed to be able to look (and please, do not claim that "but I don't do that". Everybody does it, you can't even prevent it) realism goes out of the door.

Claiming 3rd person is more realistic than 1st person is not the same as claiming a component of 3rd person, namely being able to see over walls, is more realistic.

The 3rd person gains are not "minute" in my opinion.

In DayZ a week back I could hide perfectly behind a wall and see enemies approaching on the other side of it using 3rd person and they had no idea. The advantages in areas with structures and walls is massive.

Saying there is no solution is cynical considering there are hundreds of third-person games where you can't sneak-peek over walls.

A good 3rd-person camera may allow you to slightly peek around corners with some effort but that's about all it really has to be. With corner detection the camera can even stop that, which exists in some stealth games I believe.

Edited by Sneakson

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