Arma 3 Kart DLC

[ayjay 117]

Wait... You are the guy who's responsible for that? Because I put my (equally scarce and hard earned) money into Arma 3 as a mixture of military sim, fun simulator, roleplaying sandbox and time waster. (No offense. ;) But you have to see, how Arma is not only tailored to the needs of the milsim-customers. ;))

I like everything that expands the possibilities within Arma. I've played shadowrun-like RPG-rounds with friends - which is far from being mil sim in Arma 3. And I wouldn't be able to have that kind of fun, if Arma 3 would be completely focussed on being a milsim. And now I can drive races and explore Altis on Kart. What's not to like about that. Especially if it costs only 1,49€ - and additionally helps the Czech Red Cross.

No it's supposed to be a military sim. I imagine the majority of people who buy it do so expecting that. If they try to make it too diverse those people will go elsewhere and BIS will have to try to persuade people who buy Colin McRaes 'Dirt' to buy Arma.

[Belbo 462]

No it's supposed to be a military sim. I imagine the majority of people who buy it do so expecting that. If they try to make it too diverse those people will go elsewhere and BIS will have to try to persuade people who buy Colin McRaes 'Dirt' to buy Arma.

No, it's not. And it never was advertised as a military simulation. It's advertised as a (and I quote the steam store page) "massive military sandbox" and "[authentic], diverse (and) open". Diversity and flexibility are the credo of Arma 3. If I hear military sandbox, it doesn't even necessarily have to do with fighting: BIS could implement a mini-game "Drinking at the casern on a saturday evening" and it still would fit their description. And that is exactly what puts Arma 3 beyond every other game out there. If it were a military simulation only, it would just be another shooter, only on a larger scale.

[ayjay 117]

No, it's not. And it never was advertised as a military simulation. It's advertised as a (and I quote the steam store page) "massive military sandbox" and "[authentic], diverse (and) open". Diversity and flexibility are the credo of Arma 3. If I hear military sandbox, it doesn't even necessarily have to do with fighting: BIS could implement a mini-game "Drinking at the casern on a saturday evening" and it still would fit their description. And that is exactly what puts Arma 3 beyond every other game out there. If it were a military simulation only, it would just be another shooter, only on a larger scale.

Really? Well there'll be no ARMA IV for me then. Try to please everybody you end up pleasing nobody.

[Belbo 462]

Really? Well there'll be no ARMA IV for me then. Try to please everybody you end up pleasing nobody.

It's not about pleasing everybody. It's about offering what's promised. And Arma 3 does that.

#edit: Let me rephrase that. Arma 3 (or Arma in general) offers the possibilities to please a diverse audience, without loosing the ability to please single needs. Adding Karts to the game won't dilute your fun in the game if you play it as a military simulation. This is maybe addressed to other people than you. But it won't affect you negatively. And that's what's so beautiful about this.

It's like respawn options: In a military simulation you probably shouldn't have a respawn option. But having multiple ways to implement a respawn feature into your mission, you can tailor missions to suit almost everyone's needs without influencing other peoples ways to play. That's the way diversity and flexibility work in Arma 3 and have always worked in BIS games.

Do you remember the Flappy Bird-Simulator in Arma 3? That's just amazing - and wouldn't be possible, if Arma 3 was nothing but a military simulation.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Pergor

[ayjay 117]

It's not about pleasing everybody. It's about offering what's promised. And Arma 3 does that.

#edit: Let me rephrase that. Arma 3 (or Arma in general) offers the possibilities to please a diverse audience, without loosing the ability to please single needs. Adding Karts to the game won't dilute your fun in the game if you play it as a military simulation. This is maybe addressed to other people than you. But it won't affect you negatively. And that's what's so beautiful about this.

It's like respawn options: In a military simulation you probably shouldn't have a respawn option. But having multiple ways to implement a respawn feature into your mission, you can tailor missions to suit almost everyone's needs without influencing other peoples ways to play. That's the way diversity and flexibility work in Arma 3 and have always worked in BIS games.

Do you remember the Flappy Bird-Simulator in Arma 3? That's just amazing - and wouldn't be possible, if Arma 3 was nothing but a military simulation.

Well I don't remember ARMA, ARMA2, Operation Arrowhead, BAF or Reinforcements, all of which I bought being anything like the game you described above. Thanks for your warning about the way things are going. I'll be opting out before ARMA6 Ken and Barbie.

[strangere 2]

No it's supposed to be a military sim. I imagine the majority of people who buy it do so expecting that. If they try to make it too diverse those people will go elsewhere and BIS will have to try to persuade people who buy Colin McRaes 'Dirt' to buy Arma.

Karts was just little fun thing that one BIS dev made in his free time. After it was used in april fools joke people wanted them to release it, so they did. You make it sound like BIS is focusing on anything else than military stuff. Yet, they have announced helicopter and marksman Dlc and full expansion for Arma 3, that could bring a lot of wanted features. Not to mention ZEUS witch is really great thing for playing with friends and in communities, directing their experience (yes it's very good tool for people that want Arma to be military simulator). But for some reason a lot of people on forums have problem with ZEUS, which i never understood.

Btw. There was tractor in Arma2, Arma1 and in OFP that doesn't fit military sim same way Karts don't fit.

Edited May 31, 2014 by strangere

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Well I don't remember ARMA, ARMA2, Operation Arrowhead, BAF or Reinforcements, all of which I bought being anything like the game you described above. Thanks for your warning about the way things are going. I'll be opting out before ARMA6 Ken and Barbie.

How tragic

[Vigil Vindex 64]

Karts was just little fun thing that one BIS dev made in his free time.

At first I believed this too. Then once I seen all the achievements and seen all the DLC restrictions I really really doubt one guy spent his free time doing all that.

---------- Post added at 14:32 ---------- Previous post was at 14:28 ----------

But for some reason a lot of people on forums have problem with ZEUS, which i never understood.

I think most of the people who have a problem with it are finding it hard to understand how Zeus gets dev time while the 3D editor is still to show up in any meaningful form. I too find it hard understanding the thinking behind the decision to create Zeus while ignoring the many years that people have been requesting for the 3D editor.

[strangere 2]

At first I believed this too. Then once I seen all the achievements and seen all the DLC restrictions I really really doubt one guy spent his free time doing all that.

Yes one BIS dev commented on it that it also took one programer for one hour. Dont know how much time and effort the achievements take.

As for 3D editor, i take it that ZEUS is step towards it. So, i am hopeful that we will see it.

Edited May 31, 2014 by strangere

[Belbo 462]

At first I believed this too. Then once I seen all the achievements and seen all the DLC restrictions I really really doubt one guy spent his free time doing all that.

As if it were up to us to decide how BIS devs spend their time. A lot of people get enraged right now about how BIS devs spend their time, but seriously: You can't sit in front of a computer all day and try to find ways around implementing weapon resting. You got to cut the guys some slack and let them do something for fun. If we want BIS to be a bone crushing conveyor-like factory, we should tell them to sell out to EA. And nobody wants that, right?

[Vigil Vindex 64]

...it never was advertised as a military simulation. It's advertised as a (and I quote the steam store page) "massive military sandbox"

Semantics.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simulation

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sandbox

---------- Post added at 14:41 ---------- Previous post was at 14:36 ----------

As if it were up to us to decide how BIS devs spend their time.

Most successful companies listen to what their customers want and allocate their staff accordingly to meet that demand. This is what leads to the expectation that BIS devs would spend the majority of their time working on the product to make it better meet the demands of customers Nobody is actually dictating how BIS should manage its devs. People are merely expressing their desires and expectations, which is completely reasonable and not to be condemned.

[Belbo 462]

Semantics.

My example may not have been the best one. But this distinction is important and more than just an implicature. Never just say "semantics" - these differences in meaning are a basic principle of our communication. No offense meant. :)

Most successful companies listen to what their customers want and allocate their staff accordingly to meet that demand. This is what leads to the expectation that BIS devs would spend the majority of their time working on the product to make it better meet the demands of customers Nobody is actually dictating how BIS should manage its devs. People are merely expressing their desires and expectations, which is completely reasonable and not to be condemned.

"the majority of their time" exactly. It's not like a Kart-DLC would cost more time than has been put into the netcode-changes in 1.20 or the development of the other DLCs.

It's ok to ask a manufacturer for a reasonable amount of support for a product. But this whole "time & work"-argument can't be an argument when we talk about DLCs. Especially not with this one, as testing their new distribution and marketing modell is worth far more than most people see. The amount of money BIS would have to spent for an external business consultancy to find and test new ways of distributing DLCs would by far exceed the time it took to develop the Karts DLC.

This is a classic win-win-win-scenario, but some people don't actually see it:

The people who like the DLC get the demanded product for a cheap price. The people who don't like the DLC don't have to use it and won't have to suffer badly placed DLCs later on. And BIS has satisfied those first customers and equally cut the cost on business consultancy. Everyone wins.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Pergor

[Vigil Vindex 64]

these differences in meaning are a basic principle of our communication.

Exactly, my point being that text book definitions of sandbox vs simulation are debatable at best and hardly proof either way as to what we should expect from BIS. The two terms are in my understanding both describing an environment where objects can be interacted with and observed. Neither are mutually exclusive.

Edited May 31, 2014 by ssechaud

[Belbo 462]

Exactly, my point being that text book definitions of sandbox vs simulation are debatable at best and hardly proof either way as to what we should expect from BIS.

Which is the opposite of what I was saying, but let's not derail the thread. ;)

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Semantics.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simulation

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sandbox

Uhhh I don't think you know what semantics means as 'simulation' and 'sandbox' have nowhere near a similar meaning and both are inherently obvious

[Vigil Vindex 64]

But this whole "time & work"-argument can't be an argument when we talk about DLCs.

I actually think this is the argument that is playing out now. After the rough release of Arma 3 many people are expecting a focus on fixing long standing issues such as performance and AI but we are not seeing this, instead we are seeing new Karts DLC. Regardless of how much time or effort it took, end users only see what they are shown, we don't see much publicity regarding performance fixes, the Karts DLC is more visible leading to the feeling that the focus is elsewhere.

---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:56 ----------

Uhhh I don't think you know what semantics means as 'simulation' and 'sandbox' have nowhere near a similar meaning and both are inherently obvious

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics

Must I be an idiot and have no understanding of the English language because you don't agree with my point of view.

Regardless, sandbox or simulation, I don't see how these two words can define what we are allowed to expect from Arma 3 as a computer game. I think the two words are used to describe the same thing, an environment where objects and concepts are modeled and interacted with and observed.

Edited May 31, 2014 by ssechaud

[Belbo 462]

I actually think this is the argument that is playing out now. After the rough release of Arma 3 many people are expecting a focus on fixing long standing issues such as performance and AI but we are not seeing this, instead we are seeing new Karts DLC. Regardless of how much time or effort it took, end users only see what they are shown, we don't see much publicity regarding performance fixes, the Karts DLC is more visible leading to the feeling that the focus is elsewhere.

That sure is a part of the problem: The end users. But they don't just only see what they're shown. They have the weird tendency to never even think of something like a bigger picture. And act like spoiled children. But that's a whole other topic. :D

[Vigil Vindex 64]

They have the weird tendency to never even think of something like a bigger picture.

Funnily enough, most of their hopes and aspirations for the game do indeed lead to a bigger picture. I thought that was the whole story behind Arma and the community, where the community has a direct hand in shaping that bigger picture.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

[/color]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics

Must I be an idiot and have no understanding of the English language because you don't agree with my point of view.

Regardless, sandbox or simulation, I don't see how these two words can define what we are allowed to expect from Arma 3 as a computer game. I think the two words are used to describe the same thing, an environment where objects and concepts are modeled and interacted with and observed.

And that is where you are wrong. A 'sandbox' for games generally means 'anything goes' 'find your own fun' 'create your own experience' (that last one is the important one particularly for arma).

Describing arma as a military sandbox is much more accurate than calling it a military simulation as it barely simulates anything, it's just a slightly more realistic and tactical game than your average FPS. It's only by dumping a crap load of mods of it it becomes half way towards a simulator.

Some people play arma to simulate being in the military, some play for tactical gameplay, some play to be bored shitless and simulate 'life', some just play the game for fun. The game is literally what you make of it and that's the whole point so to say this DLC is 'out of touch' from the core of the game is utterly incorrect.

[Belbo 462]

Funnily enough, most of their hopes and aspirations for the game do indeed lead to a bigger picture. I thought that was the whole story behind Arma and the community, where the community has a direct hand in shaping that bigger picture.

They have. But it's not like game developers sit in their offices all day and think "hm... how could we prevent the community from getting what they want?"

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Pokemon+creator+has+something+to+say.+Pokemon+creator+has+something_9ec8cf_5149054.jpg

[Vigil Vindex 64]

@Kerc: Just to be clear I am not claiming the Karts DLC is "out of touch". I personally just feel that AI and MP performance really needs a concerted and significant investment from BIS to take us forwards. My primary concern is actually regarding VR like Oculus Rift, where there is talk that 120fps will be the minimum for an acceptable experience, and I worry that Arma 3 will never be able to achieve that level of performance. I think that is the bigger picture.

[Belbo 462]

@Kerc: Just to be clear I am not claiming the Karts DLC is "out of touch". I personally just feel that AI and MP performance really needs a concerted and significant investment from BIS to take us forwards. My primary concern is actually regarding VR like Oculus Rift, where there is talk that 120fps will be the minimum for an acceptable experience, and I worry that Arma 3 will never be able to achieve that level of performance. I think that is the bigger picture.

You certainly got a valid point there. But BIS is not Team Bondy and offering Karts won't diminish the chance for bigger improvements. I think, we can agree on that.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

@Kerc: Just to be clear I am not claiming the Karts DLC is "out of touch". I personally just feel that AI and MP performance really needs a concerted and significant investment from BIS to take us forwards. My primary concern is actually regarding VR like Oculus Rift, where there is talk that 120fps will be the minimum for an acceptable experience, and I worry that Arma 3 will never be able to achieve that level of performance. I think that is the bigger picture.

Who says they're not?

Let me sum up the Kart DLC for you.

One of the lead artists was working on the go-karts in his own personal time.

Bohemia decided to use it in their April fools video.

There was a ton of inane bitching on the forum about it but people were still asking for Bohemia to actually release the karts.

Bohemia wanted to test their new DLC solution but didn't want to use the helicopter DLC (which might actually annoy people if the system doesnt work), so used the karts

One hour of programmer work later and the DLC is here.

If you check the last two points, that is the big picture, to test future DLC deployments.

[Belbo 462]

Who says they're not?

Let me sum up the Kart DLC for you.

One of the lead artists was working on the go-karts in his own personal time.

Bohemia decided to use it in their April fools video.

There was a ton of inane bitching on the forum about it but people were still asking for Bohemia to actually release the karts.

Bohemia wanted to test their new DLC solution but didn't want to use the helicopter DLC (which might actually annoy people if the system doesnt work), so used the karts

One hour of programmer work later and the DLC is here.

If you check the last two points, that is the big picture, to test future DLC deployments.

Repeating arguments won't underline or even add to their validity.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Repeating arguments won't underline or even add to their validity.

It's not repeating an argument it's repeating facts, those points have been stated both on the store page, by a post by a dev and in the DLC plan. Anyone that ignores it is delusional (and achievements are not hard to implement especially in a game like arma)