Weapon tests

[pooroldspike 128]

Explosive charge (not satchel) against T-100

I place one at the front of the stationary tank, I'd have liked to have pushed it right underneath but this is as close as I could get it-

Bang..

(noob note- a tank running over charges won't detonate them. There are two ways to trigger them, either by rolling your mousewheel to get the menu and selecting 'touch off 1 bomb' to trigger them by radio from a safe distance like in the pic below, or by setting a timer and running like hell.

All the tests are against a stationary tank, but against a mover you have to plant 1 or more charges as 'roadside bombs' hidden in the shrubbery, and trigger them by radio when the tank moves adjacent to them. You can't place them on the road or the tank will see them and jam on its brakes. I'll test out the roadside bomb tactic later)

I climb aboard the T-100 that I placed the charge against in the previous pic and find it's been immobilised with wrecked tracks. Note the blast marks on the road.

I then placed several more charges and detonated them individually, each blast inflicted more cumulative damage until eventually the gun jammed too.

(In further tests I placed charges at the rear, and damage built up like before, but the engine seemed to come off worst)

Okay the pussyfootings over, I restart with a brandnew tank and place 6 charges and will detonate them all simultaneously to hurt the tank, not easy like before, but baaaad..

The shock lifts the tank off the ground-

Burn baby..

That test was an interesting experiment , but in a real battle you'd probably never be able to get near enough to a tank to lay 6 charges close up to it like that.

Edited May 13, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[rory_pamphilon 16]

This is all incredibly interesting, thanks for taking time to do all these tests. A couple of areas I was wondering about...

1. Tank/APC Countermeasures: Do they work? Do they stop an AT missile locking on? Do they stop an already locked on and airbourne missile from hitting? Do they prevent AI from engaging? If already being hit by AI bullets/shells does it make them stop firing? Does the fact the countermeasures only fire forwards have any impact on rear area attacks?

2. What, if anything, can survive an airstrike? Attack chopper/jet AT guided missiles seam to one hit kill evrything but I may be wrong. Does Tank countermeasures have any effect?

[pooroldspike 128]

Good questions Rory I'll put them on my test list..:)

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Meantime here are some tests I've just done using Explosive charges as roadside bombs

As we know, they can't be placed on the open road because the driver will see them and jam his brakes on, so we have to put them on the verge hidden in the grass like this-

(I turned off the red triangles in Configure>Game>Show detected mines=Disabled to show how they're hard for any tank driver to see with the naked eye. There are 6 down there)-

And here they are with the red triangles enabled-

Another view of the 6 charges, I don't think it matters which way you face them, as the blast radiates outwards equally in all directions-

Triggered by radio command (the T-100 is stationary for the test)

I climb aboard to see the damage, the right track has been trashed meaning the tank is as good as immobile because it can't be driven in a straight line-

(but note sometimes a tank CAN still drive okay if the track reads 'red', so try to drive it anyway)

Okay now just for the hell of it I've placed 14 charges, it was the most our guy could carry (there are 5 charges per Explosives crate)-

I trigger all 14-

The 14 have wrecked the track making the T-100 undriveable, and damaged all other areas of it-

Summary:-

More tests indicated that 1 charge might damage the tank if you're lucky, but you need around 3 to stand a reasonable chance of doing some damage and maybe wrecking a track.

If you use 6 there's a good chance that a track may be wrecked, and anything over 6 gives you an excellent chance of doing some serious harm.

The fact that the charges weren't placed right up against the tank means there's an "air cushion" between the charges and tank that helps the tank survive.

(Remember in an earlier post I placed 6 charges right up against the tank with no air cushion and blew it up in flames)

Edited May 3, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[Bee8190 10]

Explosive charge (not satchel) against T-100

I place one at the front of the stationary tank, I'd have liked to have pushed it right underneath but this is as close as I could get it-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Photos4-newPB/AA3-charge-012_zpsb6646f40.jpg~original

Explosives are fun!

I too have noticed that one cant' prone sneak close enough under the vehicle even though there seem to be enough clearance on other vehicles which is quite disappointing.

Also, any plans to test other vehicles like the Hunter armored vehicle? I'd like to see if there are any changes to explosives behaviour when dropped under ( shallow-ish ) water.

I know we don't have any rivers that the vehicles would need to get thru but just for the argument sake? :)

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

Any chance you could test explosives on building damage as well? Great work btw.

[pooroldspike 128]

Thanks guys, I've added your test suggestions to my test list..:)

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Meanwhile I've become obsessed with trying to knock a bridge down but haven't been able to do it and am pouting and sulking like crazy (sniffle)..

It's in the town just northeast of the airfield on the Stratis map.

First I laid 21 Explosive Charges smack on top of it..

another angle, I triggered them from this position..

..then ran down to see the damage, but there was none, no crater or scorch marks or anything, not a sausage! Even the snake seemed to be saying "You're gonna have to do better than that, sonny!"

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Enter the dragon! I restart the test and bring up a T-100..

..and hammer the bridge supporting pillar with 12x HE-T, 12x HEAT-T and 24 APFSDS-T rounds, but it's not even scratched!

I restarted and fired all the rounds at at the roadway section but that wasn't scratched either!

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Okay the gloves are off, I restart and bring up a Scorcher..

..and pour all its 32x 155mm HE shells into the bridge, but again it's not even scratched!

(noob note- the Scorcher crosshairs only move the gun left and right; to move it up and down you have to hit default keys PgUp and PgDown, adjusting by watching where your shots fall. The 'ELV' data readout indicates your current elevation, and you can also see the gun barrel at bottom right)

Edited May 2, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 128]

Okay Mister Bridge, try these 4 Sandstorm MLRS babies on for size!

I targetted them on the bridge, indirect firing from about 3kms range..

That's the bridge there..

The Sandstorms dump all their 48 rockets on and around the bridge..

I go down to inspect their handiwork but find the bridge is still intact, although half the town has been rubbled!

I'm running out of ideas what to throw at the bridge next! Wonder if there are suitcase nukes in ammo crates?

Edited May 2, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 128]

VEHICLE SMOKE GRENADES

The stage is set; I'm a Missile Specialist (AT) vs a T-100, I won't fire yet..

I board the empty T-100 and pop the smoke grenades. (noob note-also known as 'countermeasures', default key 'C')

..and by the time I run back to the firing position the smoke has blossomed thickly, but I still get a lock and fire 3 missiles through the smoke at the invisible tank..

Bingo! I run forward through the smoke and find the missiles have done their work well..

An earlier pic to illustrate the smoke cloud in relation to the T-100..

(Incidentally this is the Night Vision goggles view looking at the smoke, I thought I'd give it a try earlier but it can't see through it)..

Summary:

Smoke won't prevent missiles locking on because the missile sensor will still detect the tank. (Point your launcher at the smoke and sweep it around while jabbing the 'T' (lockon) key until it locks)

Edited May 3, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 128]

Next we'll test out the Slammers ability against smoke..

I run over to board the T-100 and pop its smoke grens as before, then run back to the Slammer and get in. This wall of smoke confronts the Slammer..

The Slammer gunners DTV (Daylight TV view), the T-100 is faintly visible for a couple of seconds at a time, so you'll have to be quick on the trigger before the roiling smoke obscures it again..

The Slammers infra-red sees nothing through the smoke, but as you sweep the gun around, the T-100's name comes up indicating you're either on or very near to the target, so it's certainly worth firing and hope you'll get a hit..

(And just for the record the Slammers NV sees zilch)..

Summary:

The Slammers DTV can vaguely see the T-100 through the smoke but they're only fleeting glimpses and you'll need to be quick to lay your sights on it and fire before it disappears again.

The Slammers IR can't see clearly through smoke, but it senses there's something out there and flashes the T-100's name on the screen when your guns pointing roughly at it (at least on lower difficulty levels), so take the shot.

The NV is blind but later I'll run some tests at night to see if it performs better.

(Remember, AT Missilemen can lock and fire through smoke)

Edited May 4, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[rory_pamphilon 16]

very interesting, thanks for testing countermeasures. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems something is wrong with countermeasures. Id have thought they were designed to disrupt lockon by AT missiles and yet be almost transparent to a thermal camera? Not the other way around, as they are now.

[five_seven5-7 56]

very interesting, thanks for testing countermeasures. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems something is wrong with countermeasures. Id have thought they were designed to disrupt lockon by AT missiles and yet be almost transparent to a thermal camera? Not the other way around, as they are now.

Maybe countermeasures are for the protection of friendly infantry and not for himself. Thermal vision can see through smoke.

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

You might try lock on missiles from jets as well. In Arma 2, hitting the countermeasures at the right time made the missile miss it's target. Would be interested to see if A3 at least kept this functionality.

[andrewza 10]

I think it did. Or more atgms missed for some other resoan.

[pooroldspike 128]

Smoke at night

I just repeated the Slammer tests on a dark December night and the results are exactly the same as for smoke in daylight, namely smoke in Arma3 blocks tank line of sight, regardless of whether you're using naked eyeballs, DTV, NV,or IR.

(I thought the sensors might be able to see through smoke in the cool of the night because of less distraction from a hot sunbaked daytime landscape)

So the most we can hope for (day or night) is a brief fleeting glimpse of the target through the smoke as the smoke cloud roils and boils.

Also, even though smoke blocks sight, it won't stop bullets or shells, so we can always pour concentrated fire through the smoke to hopefully nobble whatever's on the other side..;)

(And remember,Missile Specialists (AT) will lock on through smoke day or night even though the target tank is invisible, bless their little cotton socks.)

Here are some pics from the Slammer night tests-

No smoke:- NV view looking over the Slammer in the foreground to the T-100. I threw in an infantry platoon near the T-100 for good measure..

No smoke:- gunners DTV picks up nothing..

No smoke:- IR (whitehot) view.

(Note the T-100 shows up bright because I drove it around for a few minutes to make sure it was warm enough to show up on IR)

No smoke:- IR (blackhot)..

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SMOKE: the T-100 pops its smoke grenades; the Slammers NV can't see through it..

SMOKE: IR (whitehot) sees nothing either, just this black screen. Likewise, IR (blackhot) also produces a black screen, so does DTV..

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PS- As an interesting postscript to what I said earlier about how a hot tank shows up bright on IR, I just ran these night tests (without smoke) to illustrate it further.

I placed a T-100 empty and cold, and although it shows up on NV like this just below and to the right of the crosshairs-

..it WON'T show up on IR because it's stone cold, and only the warm-bodied men show up..

I then ran over to the T-100 and drove it around for a minute or two, and now it shows up on IR.

If I'd driven it around for another few minutes it'd have glowed even brighter.

(Noob note- The obvious tactic during gameplay is therefore not to drive your tanks around too much unless you have to, in order to keep their IR signature as low as possible, and switching off the engine when you park)

Edited May 4, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 128]

Postscript to the earlier Missile Specialist (AT) tests:

As we saw earlier, he's able to lock his Titan onto an invisible T-100 through smoke like this..

..and here's why, it's because the Titan's sights can see through smoke!

..which is why he can let fly and burn the tank!

Tactical note: if there's lots of smoke obscuring things all over the battlefield, human players with Titan AT's can therefore use the sights to scan around and see what's lurking behind the smoke even if they don't want to actually fire.

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Next test: Will Missile Specialist (AT) bots fire through smoke? Answer= No

That's Johnny Bot on the left, I popped the T-100's smoke and ordered him to run up to this firing position, but he just went prone and wouldn't fire..

..and not until the smoke cleared did he let one fly..

Ha ha that's my boy, you're a soldier now..:)

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(Incidentally I've patched up to 1.18, most of the new additions seem to be cosmetic and don't affect the tests as far as I can tell)

PS- I test at 'Regular' difficulty level

Edited May 4, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 128]

Explosives maximum remote detonation range is 300 metres

Only 3 types can be remotely triggered, namely the Explosive Charge, the Satchel Charge and the Claymore, and the maximum detonation range for each of them is 300 metres as these tests demonstrated.

(I got the explosives out of that Explosives crate and used the buggy to scoot down the hill to place them at the road junction, then scooted back up and dismounted, then walked forwards and backwards to find the maximum range. (Roll your mousewheel and the 'Trigger Bomb' option comes up if you're in range)

Bang, I trigger the Explosive Charge 300m away. (Intervening buildings and hills won't block the radio signal)

Noob tip- if you're setting up an explosive ambush in the editor or mission builder and want to know exactly how far 300m is, you can either use the map grid to judge distance (each square is 100m at this scale), or you can temporarily put a 'Placement radius 300m' on yourself like this below (the dotted blue circle).

This is the test map, the explosive is the red circle at the junction at bottom right, exactly 300m away.

(Don't forget to reset Placement radius to 0 before you save the game)

Edited May 4, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 128]

Can Rifleman (AT) units see through smoke? Answer= Yes if they're human

In the earlier Titan AT tests we discovered that the human Missile Specialist (AT) guys firing their Titans can see and fire through smoke, but now I've just found out the human Rifleman (AT) guys can do it too!

Here's the Nato Rifleman (AT) with his PCML launcher, you can either sweep it around and keep hitting 'T' to get a lock like this and fire through the smoke..

..or you can look down the scope (default key 0 numpad) to see right through the smoke like this, and lock on and fire..

Next up is the CSAT Rifleman (AT) with his RPG launcher, it's not a lockable weapon and therefore can't be locked at any time (even if there's no smoke). He could take a potshot through the smoke but risks wasting a valuable rocket..

..so you have to look down the scope to see through the smoke to fire. (reminder-it's not a lockable weapon so don't waste time jabbing the lockon key)

Summary: (including earlier Titan tests)

(Bots will never fire through smoke, so we're talking about human players here)

Missile Specialist (AT): his Titans can be locked and fired through smoke with or without looking through the scope.

NATO Rifleman (AT): his PCML can be locked and fired through smoke with or without looking through the scope.

CSAT Rifleman (AT): his RPG can't be locked through smoke, so use his scope to see through the smoke and fire using your eyeball to judge trajectory (it can't be locked remember)

Tactical note:

If your tank is under enemy bot AT missile or gun fire and you don't know where it's coming from, you can pop your smoke grenades (default key C) because enemy bots can't see or fire through smoke. and it'll buy you time to move behind a house or into dead ground etc,

Only human AT missilemen can see and fire through smoke.

Edited May 4, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[Sniperwolf572 758]

...

Only human AT missilemen can see ... through smoke.

It's not quite black and white like that. Yes, as a player you can always lock onto things through the smoke, but it's not due to the fact that you can visually see the tank on your screen. Actual visual contact through the smoke for the humans depends on the distance and the particle video settings. It's due to the way the engine handles particles.

The further away from the tank you are, your ability to "see through the smoke" will decrease to the point you won't see the tank from the smoke, but you'll still be able to lock onto it.

Being close to the tank smoke with Low or Medium particle settings will allow you to "see through" the smoke, while with the High particle setting, there are enough smoke particles and it gets a bit too dense to visually ID the tank even at closer ranges. But when you are further away, even with the particles on Low, the tank will be fully visually hidden by the smoke.

With Arma 3, smokes have finally become a "view blocker" for the AI. So the AI won't see through it. Apparently there is no visibility check for the lock on mechanisms. I'm not sure how the RL counterparts of Titan and NLAW lock onto targets IRL (Thermal probably?), so I do not know if this lock-on-though-smoke is authentic or not.

[pooroldspike 128]

...Actual visual contact through the smoke for the humans depends on the distance and the particle video settings. It's due to the way the engine handles particles.

The further away from the tank you are, your ability to "see through the smoke" will decrease to the point you won't see the tank from the smoke, but you'll still be able to lock onto it..

Thanks mate I just ran these tests and yes, the denser the smoke, the harder it is for the scope to see through it like you pointed out.

And like you also say, missiles can still be locked on no matter what the particle density setting or range is.

High particles setting, eyeball view. (incidentally this view is exactly the same for Standard and Low particle settings, eyeballs can't see through any density, so there's no need for me to repeat this screenshot for them)..

High particles setting, Titan scope view. The T-100 is very faint..

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'Standard' particles setting, Titan scope view. The T-100 is slightly more clearer to see..

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'Low' particle setting, Titan scope view. The T-100 is easy to see..

Summary: The High/Standard/Low video particle density settings do affect smoke density like Sniperwolf said, but even the thickest ('High') smoke still won't stop human AT missiles locking on as he also said.

(And remember, bot missilemen will never fire through smoke, so popping smoke will completely protect your tank against bots.

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PS- I threw in this extra test to see if popped smoke drifts with the wind?

and this is the result, I set the wind to maximum (100) from right to left and also tossed a green smoke grenade for good measure.

The popped smoke doesn't exactly drift, but it's certainly leaning a bit in the wind direction. That's because the smoke grenades keep pouring out smoke for about 2 minutes..

Edited May 4, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Thanks mate I just ran these tests and yes, the denser the smoke, the harder it is for the scope to see through it.

But like you say, missiles can still be locked on no matter what the particle density setting or range is.

'Low' particle setting, Titan scope view. The T-100 is easy to see..

There's also distance to consider when doing the scoped tests. As I said, even on low, the further away you go and less zoom you apply, the smoke will be harder to see through. Trying to see a T100 on the Stratis airfield in smoke from the hill above is a whole different experience. I'm rarely that close to the enemy tank during the missions.

PS- I threw in this extra test to see if popped smoke drifts with the wind and this is the result, I set the wind to maximum (100) from right to left and also tossed a green smoke grenade for good measure.

The popped smoke doesn't exactly drift, but it's certainly shifted a bit in the wind direction. That's because the smoke grenades keep pouring out smoke for about 2 minutes..

Yep, I noticed that too, the hand thrown smoke is affected much more by the wind than the tank one is. Hand thrown smokes are really useless in high wind for concealment as it provides absolutely no concealment from the AI, while no wind will let you pass safely behind it without being spotted.

If you ever get sent on a non-windy stealth mission in Arma against the AI, just bring loads of smokes and toss them around and you're practically invisible as the AI doesn't seem to react to the grenade itself. :D

[pooroldspike 128]

There's also distance to consider when doing the scoped tests. As I said, even on low, the further away you go and less zoom you apply, the smoke will be harder to see through. Trying to see a T100 on the Stratis airfield in smoke from the hill above is a whole different experience. I'm rarely that close to the enemy tank during the missions..

Yah, the scope view can't see through Standard smoke in this long range test, but the sensor still locks on to the invisible T-100 bless it's little heart..:)

The stage is set: the fool on the hill (me) sees a T-100 600m away..

The scope IR view..

I break the lock, pop the T-100's smoke, shoulder the Titan and can still get this fresh lock through the smoke..

..even though the Day scope can't see through it..

..and the IR scope can't see through the smoke either..

(noob note, the square means it's a poor quality lock but I always fire anyway because you can't wait forever to get a solid lock (diamond box and a trilling canary sound).

After 3 shots through the smoke the fat lady starts singing and the smoke clears..

(Incidentally I forgot to set the wind to light, it's blowing hard at maximum (100) from the left but the burning T-100 proves a strong crosswind doesn't affect AT missile accuracy)..

Fun quiz question:-does anybody know how I popped the T-100's smoke from up on the hill, or shall we ask Penn and Teller?

Edited May 5, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[13islucky 10]

Hm... interesting. That means that humans have a pretty big advantage since they can assume that there's something hiding behind the smoke and can lock on to it without issues, but the AI's blocked view due to smoke makes it impossible for them to realize that they can lock on to the tank.

To answer the question: Doesn't the AI automatically deploy smoke when you lock on to them with a launcher? I don't know if this happens in vanilla Arma AI, but with bCombat it happens fairly regularly.

[andrewza 10]

Zeues or MCC was used to take control of the AI unit

[pooroldspike 128]

..To answer the question: Doesn't the AI automatically deploy smoke when you lock on to them with a launcher? I don't know if this happens in vanilla Arma AI, but with bCombat it happens fairly regularly.

No, in dozens of my AT lockon tests, bot crews have never popped smoke in AA3, it's realistic because they don't know they've been locked by IR missiles (and neither do humans)

I'll leave the question open for another day or two to see if anybody can work out how I got that T-100 to pop smoke when I was up on the hill..:)

[pooroldspike 128]

SATCHELS ARE MORE POWERFUL THAN CHARGES

Size comparison; the Explosives Specialist can carry only 3 Satchels in his backpack, or 14 Charges..

A single Charge against a stationary T-100..

..inflicts fair damage..

After a restart it's a single Satchel's turn, they always seem to produce more filthy smoke..

..and it hurts the tank far more than the Charge did..

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Okay let's see what 2 Charges detonating simultaneously can do.

They hurt the tank bad but it doesn't burn..

A restart and now 2 Satchels strut their stuff, note the violence of the explosion with chunks of debris flying everywhere and filthy smoke..

Haha the 2 Satchels have toasted the T-100..

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4 Charges are needed to brew the T-100..

(PS- place them from the prone position because you can crawl nearer to the tank than if you place them while kneeling or standing)

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Summary: I estimate Satchels are about twice as powerful as Charges, but you can only carry 3 in your backpack.

On the other hand you can carry 14 Charges, so it's a matter of personal preference whether you want 3 big bangs or 14 smaller ones.

14 would give you more flexibility; for example if you want to blow up a light vehicle a single Charge would probably do it, no need for a big Satchel.

And a couple of Charges would probably blow the track off a tank and put it out of the battle even if they don't burn it, so they certainly pack a useful wallop.

But no matter which type of explosive you use, you've still got to get up to the tank to place it, which could prove a bit tricky unless the beast is stationary and there are no infantry around covering it.

Edited May 5, 2014 by PoorOldSpike