Weapon tests

[Variable 322]

PoorOldSpike can choppers detect underwater frogmen?

(yay for Russian live dummies!)

Oh boy I LOLed so hard when that guy opened the chopper door...

[pooroldspike 129]

PoorOldSpike can choppers detect underwater frogmen?..

Yeah these tests indicate they can.

I placed this bot Kajman over a bunch of Nato frogmen..

..and it opened up on them with its gatling.

It then flew clear and kept returning to make several more firing passes..

..however the frogmen were unharmed. I dived in to join them, here the Kajman at top left is making a firing pass. The frogmen point their guns at it but don't seem to fire..

..a night view from the shore of the Kajman in action, indicating it can also detect them at night..

Summary:

Bot helos will spot and fire at submerged frogmen.

The frogmen won't shoot back.

The frogmen aren't harmed, but in one test some of them swam off to take cover under the quay.

(Earlier I took up choppers myself (3 pics in post #148 on page 15) to see if I could spot frogmen but I couldn't, not in daylight or at night using a helo searchlight and NV and IR optics, so it seems only bot chopper crews can see frogmen, and humans can't.

It's all academic of course because choppers can't hurt frogmen, so the strafing runs are just game eye candy)

Edited May 28, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 129]

..are you by any chance going to test body protection? Carrier rigs and all, maybe some of which we have not seen such as Raven vest, police vest, etc...

BODY ARMOUR TESTS AGAINST PISTOLS AND RIFLES

Here's a standard Nato Rifleman, first we'll see how many pistol slugs it need to take him down near-naked..

1 shot sends him crumpling to the ground..

(In all the tests I'm targetting the bottom of the sternum. There's a lot of blood even though I only fired once)

..but when he's wearing this Carrier Lite protective vest it takes 4 shots to crumple him (shots 1 to 3 made him visibly jerk but he stayed on his feet)

Now he's fully kitted out with the Carrier Lite plus Combat Fatigues, and again it takes 4 shots to deck him. (I thought his fatigues might have a metallic weave like chain mail for extra protection, but evidently they don't)

His helmet gives no protection, 1 shot kills him..

Fredo, you were my brother and I loved you, but you should never have taken sides with anyone against the family..

Okay all those tests were with a pistol and showed that just 1 shot to his unprotected chest or through his helmet will kill him, but it needs 4 shots through his Carrier Lite vest to kill him.

I then ran the tests again with a standard rifle which predictably produced the same results of 1 shot against unprotected chest and helmet to kill, but only 2 or 3 shots through the vest were needed to kill him (below)

I targetted the vest as usual, so the blood on his arms must be spatter)..

Summary: the Carrier Lite vest will protect you against 3 pistol shots, but the 4th will kill you.

And it'll protect you against the first rifle shot, but shots 2 or 3 will kill you (it varied)

Rifles therefore hit harder than pistols, a realistic touch.

Helmets give zero protection against pistols and rifles because 1 shot and you're dead.

All the tests were conducted at close range,but at long ranges the bullet velocity will presumably hit with less force, so the vest and helmet might be more resistant. (difficult to test at long range because I can't be sure if my shots are hitting the vest and helmet or an unprotected body part)

PS- the Combat Fatigues and Carrier Lite vest are standard Rifleman issue (at top left)..

Edited October 19, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[Variable 322]

It's all academic of course because choppers can't hurt frogmen, so the strafing runs are just game eye candy)

Not quite. They might can't harm them, which is realistic, but they can detect them, which is not realistic, and can break stealth missions! choppers should detect frogman in clear daylight, only if they are very shallow or swim on the water surface. I'll open a bug on it.

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

Ticket opened: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=18986

[John Kozak 14]

the explosions are a mystery, perhaps they're using explosive bullets?..

AI divers can throw grenades underwater for some reason. Was quite (deadly) surprised by that several times until I figured it out.

[pooroldspike 129]

...choppers should detect frogman in clear daylight, only if they are very shallow or swim on the water surface..]

Yeah here's a human choppers view, they're about 10 metres deep and it's almost impossible to see them, and the only way we know they're there is because I enabled their icons..

..and here's a night view, I've disabled the icons and shone the choppers searchlight into the water but can't see them..

The chopper gunners NV can't detect them either..

..and neither can his IR..

Edited May 28, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 129]

A Speedboat can just about see them in daylight..

..but they'll shoot at it and throw grenades at it like this, as DarkWanderer said.

(the bot crew will fire back at the frogmen with the gren launcher and HMG, but can't harm them)..

At night the Speedboats NV can't see them..

..and neither can its IR..

Edited May 28, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[oukej 2911]

AI divers can throw grenades underwater for some reason.

This has sadly been around ever since, we are aware of it. There's also a FT ticket here - http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=18367

Regarding the above-water to under-water detection, please follow ticket http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=18986

[Tonci87 163]

This has sadly been around ever since, we are aware of it. There's also a FT ticket here - http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=18367

Regarding the above-water to under-water detection, please follow ticket http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=18986

Why was it disabled for players?

[pooroldspike 129]

Any chance you could test explosives on building damage as well?..

EXPLOSIVE CHARGE, CLAYMORE and EXPLOSIVE SATCHEL against building

I placed them all in the same position (arrowed)..

Firstly the Explosive Charge, can such a small thing bring down a building?..

yup, it can..

Next the Claymore with explosive side facing the building..

small fireball..

..no real damage, just a couple of blown windows and a bit of smoke inside..

Edited May 30, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 129]

Finally the Satchel..

The fireball size and smoke cloud are about the same size as the Charge..

..and the damage also seems about the same as the Charge..

Summary: the Charge and Satchel have about the same damage capability. (I'll try to find a very big building in Arma3 to try them against later).

The Claymore is almost ineffective against buildings.

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...any plans to test other vehicles like the Hunter armored vehicle? I'd like to see if there are any changes to explosives behaviour when dropped under ( shallow-ish ) water. I know we don't have any rivers that the vehicles would need to get thru but just for the argument sake? :)

New test: Explosives can't be placed underwater

I placed Charges and Satchels and Claymores etc in this very shallow water but they just floated on top like this and wouldn't sink.

I also placed my Rifle to see what'd happen, and it floated too!

I tried wading into deeper water but then the 'Place' option wouldn't come up at all..

Summary: Although the 'Place' option will come up in shallow water, the items will just float unrealistically on the surface.

I was able to touch the explosives off, but I can't think of any tactical situation where we'd want to place stuff on the surface anyway

Edited June 3, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 129]

Explosive Charge vs Solar Tower

(I know there's no tactical value in demolishing it but I just want to see how powerful a Charge is)

Let's see if just one Charge can do the job..

Boom, no fireball and not much smoke, but it collapses regardless..

Piece o' cake..

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Explosive Charge vs big building

It's labelled 'Power Plant' on the map about halfway down the west coast of Altis.

There's a ladder up to the flat roof where an enemy squad could lurk, so I just want to see if buildings like this could be blown out from under them.

I placed one Charge but it didn't scratch the building, so I kept restarting and placing more and more until even 14 Charges (below) didn't scratch it!

All we got was a scorched bit of ground. I'll bring up the tanks, arty and air force tomorrow to have a crack at it..

Edited May 31, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[das attorney 858]

I wouldn't bother trying to destroy it mate. Some of the buildings don't have a damaged model so will take damage but never fall down. Another example is the "Land_MilOffices_V1_F".

[pooroldspike 129]

Yes it seems you're right mate, I went back and threw everything at the Power Plant except the kitchen sink in the tests below but it was still standing at the end of the day..

Tank HE and AP fire..

Blackfoot chopper rocket fire..

Scorcher 155mm HE barrages..

MLRS rocket barrages..

Wipeout rocket fire..

Wipeout GBU bombs..

(I'm dropping them unguided)..

so it's a miracle that one of the stick of 4 eggs hit..

But when the fat lady starts singing the Plant is still standing, it's like trying to sink the Tirpitz..:)

Edited June 1, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[dukenukem. 12]

Thanks for the informative thread PoorOldSpike!

Enjoyed reading it.

[pooroldspike 129]

Thanks mate, incidentally everybody, I updated to v 1.20 a few days ago but the new tweaks don't seem to have any drastic effect on the game as far as I can tell.

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SMOKE GRENADE TESTS

There's an enemy bot Riflemen group up the road, so I chuck a white smoke grenade and begin running out into the middle of the road to see what happens..

They open fire (arrows) down the thin side of the smoke, but when I get behind the thickest part they cease fire, so they obviously can't see me..

I stand there for a full minute whistling the theme to 'Rawhide' without being shot at, then when the smoke begins to clear, they open up again and I'm dead meat within seconds (note blood spots)..

In this next test I throw a green and a white grenade, move out and stop, but they can't see me at all and don't shoot..

..but when I continue across the road, they open fire when they see me through the thinner part of the smoke and down I go..

The above tests were in zero wind and default '10' wind speed (both of which produced the same results),

so now I increase wind speed to maximum '100' to see if the "wall of smoke" will give cover, but no, I get shot down as I run. (note the crouching and kneeling shooters)..

I reduce wind speed to '50' and try to cross the road again but no joy, I'm gunned down again..

..and even two grens don't give me any cover, i get shot again..

SUMMARY:

Bot riflemen won't fire through the thickest part of smoke.

Run FAST or SPRINT to get behind the thickest part before they spot you, and if you're lucky you can carry on running right across the road into cover on the other side without getting shot.

Smoke gives best cover in zero or low wind speeds where it can hang about near one spot, but higher wind speeds thin it out.

The tests were done with only one and two smoke grenades, but presumably if several men threw more all at once, the combined smoke would provide much better cover.

Edited June 2, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[13islucky 10]

May I ask if them being covered by smoke has the same effect when it comes to AI detection?

Edit: Ooh, have you tried going prone when using smoke at high wind speeds? Just for the sake of science?

Edited June 2, 2014 by 13isLucky

[Variable 322]

SMOKE GRENADE TESTS

This is a great because I always doubted if the AI vision is actually blocked by smoke! Glad to see we can rely on it. It's reassuring. Thanks again for this helpful test PoorOldSpike, it's very very helpful!

[pooroldspike 129]

May I ask if them being covered by smoke has the same effect when it comes to AI detection?

Edit: Ooh, have you tried going prone when using smoke at high wind speeds? Just for the sake of science?

This is a great because I always doubted if the AI vision is actually blocked by smoke! Glad to see we can rely on it. It's reassuring. Thanks again for this helpful test PoorOldSpike, it's very very helpful!

Thanks guys, here are some follow-up tests-

Throwing the smoke on top of the bad guys doesn't seem to totally blind them because I get shot when running across the road..

But crawling prone behind a wall of smoke in a high wind like this does give good cover as Lucky suggested, because I crawled this far across the road before I was shot..

..and two walls of smoke like this give excellent cover to a crawler, because they didn't spot me or fire at all, and I could have carried on crawling all the way to the Grand Old Opry if i'd wanted..

SUMMARY:

At least two walls of smoke are needed to provide excellent cover for a crawler.

You can try crawling with just one smoke wall but there's a chance you'll be spotted.

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GRENADE LAUNCHER AGAINST HUMMINGBIRD

The gren launcher is a dog to sight properly and it's down to personal preferences, but I use this method-

I imagine two red lines going from the sights, and put the corner on the target to guarantee a hit, (but it only works at short ranges)..

WARNING!- if theres a gap (yellow) like this below, right-click to close the gap (as in pic above) or the red-line method won't work..

..a hit..

..it lands heavily and the crew get out and run..

..the holes and dinks on the front are the only visible damage, I fired just one grenade.

In test re-runs there were crew casualties..

Edited June 3, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[pooroldspike 129]

GRENADE LAUNCHER AGAINST BLACKFOOT

I presume it's better armoured than the Hummingbird, and that its toughest armour is on its front.

(i've added the red sighting lines again to show how the corner must be placed on the target)..

..a hit..

..the first hit had no effect but a second hit sends it spiralling out of control..

..and it crashes into a tree or telegraph pole..

Edited June 3, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[Greenfist 1863]

PoorOldSpike, have you tried using the Quick and fun projectile path tracing script? It could be useful to see where exactly the enemies are shooting at.

[pooroldspike 129]

Thanks I might dabble with it sometime but I don't know much about scripts and stuff, I'm just a grunt wargamer and only know how to switch on my computer and do a few key presses and mouse clicks to make my little men and tanks run around shooting their guns..:)

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RPG AGAINST HUMMINGBIRD

It's a non-lockable rocket launcher so you have to use your eyeball to allow for gravity drop.

It can fire AT or HE rockets but I'm using AT in these tests.

No gravity drop at this short range so you can't miss whether you're using crosshairs

(below) or the scope..

..a single hit makes mincemeat of the Hummingbird..

--------------------------------------------------------------

RPG AGAINST BLACKFOOT

Whoosh..

..just the one hit trashes the Blackfoot..

..and it's barbied..

In another test the Blackfoot landed hard after taking a hit and the crew legged it leaving this cockpit damage..

SUMMARY:

The Grenade launcher can down a Hummingbird or Blackfoot with just one or two hits, but actually getting a hit is difficult and I often completely missed even against the close-range static choppers in the test.

The RPG is much more powerful and easier to aim than the gren launcher, but at longer ranges against moving targets it'll be harder to score hits.

Edited June 3, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[Bee8190 10]

Summary: Although the 'Place' option will come up in shallow water, the items will just float unrealistically on the surface.

I was able to touch the explosives off, but I can't think of any tactical situation where we'd want to place stuff on the surface anyway

That's little lame but alright I guess the opportunities as to when we might use it are somewhat slim.

Also nice smoke concealment test Spike, keep up the good work

[manesh 1]

First I would like to thank you for your great tests.

I decided to test something myself - the projectile velocity for different weapons and how they behave over the flight time.

I used this script http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?164294-Quick-and-fun-projectile-path-tracing! with this map: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=189421090

Gameversion was the standard version 1.20.124.746 (according to Windows).

I set overcast, gusts and wind to 0.

I checked the distance with the shift-click marker (from where I shot at 0m). Then I wrote down the distance at which the projectile velocity fell below 75% and 50% of the initial speed (colors change from red to yellow and yellow to green for the trajectory lines.

I shot 20-30 rounds for each test - one test with and one without suppressors.

If you want to verify yourself I suggest you use the following command to quickly teleport over the map: onmapsingleclick "player setpos _pos"

Data:

Drop in Percent of muzzle velocity after distance
Example: TRG-20 5.56 with a suppressor had 75% of the muzzle velocity after 220m and 50% after 490m.


	Red (100%-75% v)		Yellow (75%-50% v)
	Suppressor	Normal		Suppressor	Normal
	+-10m		+-10m		+-10m		+-10m

TRG-20 5.56	220m		250m		490m		580m
Mk20 5.56	220m		250m		490m		580m

MX 6.5		270m		330m		650m		770m
Mk200 6.5	280m		330m		650m		770m

MK18 7.62	250m		300m		590m		690m
Rahim 7.62	250m		300m		590m		690m
Zafir 7.62			300m				690m

------
MXM 6.5 	270m		330m
MXC 6.5		270m		330m
MX SW 6.5	--		330m
Katiba 6.5	270m		330m
MX3GL 6.5	270m		330m

Conclusions:

- The only important value is the caliber - the weapon itself does not influence the speed decrease - for absolute values in muzzle velocity for different weapons see my post below.

- Suppressors seem to have a bit higher variance in the decrease sometimes (+-20m to +-10m)

- Suppressors are still modeled wrong - suppressors do not(!) slow down projectiles (in contrast, the enhance the speed a bit) - there was a bugreport that was set to fixed but it is still wrong - see my post below.

- 7.62 loses its velocity faster than 6.5 - for absolute values see my next post.

Edited June 4, 2014 by manesh

[pooroldspike 129]

Thanks Manesh that's interesting info,I wish I had your patience to get into the nitty-gritty of number-crunching..:)

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TACTICAL AND HIGH COMMAND VIEWS

(Old hands already know about this, so this post is aimed primarily at newcomers.)

If you place a man in the editor like this..

..his view will be restricted to just 1st person (eyeballs view) , or to 3rd person (slightly higher view) like this, (toggle with Enter (num))..

..but if you go back to the editor and place a High Command flag anywhere on the map like this..

..you'll get a useful Tactical View option like this for a higher view of the area (key '.' (num))

But if you've got other men in your squad like this, you don't need a High Command flag..

..because you can still get the Tactical View like this..(and note you get 3 men icons at bottom left)..

However, placing a High Command flag..

..will give you the option to shrink your 3 men icons into 1 like this by hitting the High Command key combo (left Ctrl Space), which is especially useful for de-cluttering if there are a lot of units on the screen in larger games..

Incidentally, the Tactical View can be zoomed out further like this (key '-' (num)) for a "mini-drone" view to simulate the "no hiding place" aspect of future warfare..

Edited June 4, 2014 by PoorOldSpike