ASR AI 3

[kklownboy 43]

 

Mickeymen-

 What condition, are your snipers in? Aware? relaxed? Combat?  etc.  should they be in defend/hold?

[Alwarren 2765]

2 hours ago, mickeymen said:

When the BLUFOR squad will enter battle contact with the OPFOR squad, all single OPFOR snipers will leave their current waypoints and will go to support the allied OPFOR squad. Please note, snipers have cycled waypoints - LOITER or MOVE. Thus they should not leave their waypoints (because they are cycled) Only a special waypoint should force these AI leave their place! But in the ASR, the AI will ignore this, he will leave his destination and rush to support/

 

Units on Waypoints may start to engage if they are close enough and have sufficient knowledge/knowsAbout on enemy units. You might need to set them to "never engage", but I doubt that even with Vanilla they will just stick to their waypoints if they get sufficient knowledge (try to reveal targets to see the effect).

 

HOLD waypoints are afaik the only ones that cannot be easily broken, and even those will attack if they have enough knowledge.

[KeyCat 131]

11 hours ago, Robalo said:

Radio report does not imply groups moving in to support. Again, there is no such option "support distance" - perhaps Pooter's fork have that, I don't know. Also, this mod does not mess with any waypoints doesn't remove nor add any,

Please make sure you're testing issues with CBA and ASR AI only when reporting issues here.

 

Maybe you already thought about this and dismissed it but since we now have a command to have the AI forget about the enemy completely maybe an option to set that if player/s is X m away and X seconds since last contact they could stop hunting you and return to original point. I know you don't want to mess with way points but maybe there is a way to do this somehow?

 

Just thinking out loud but this could maybe prevent lots of AI leaving their posts to hunt you down across the map. I love being hunted but it can be used as a "cheat" to lure AI away from the objective area if they follow a player to far away.

 

Just my 0.20 SEK which isn't much money anyway

 

[mickeymen 322]

4 hours ago, kklownboy said:

 

Mickeymen-

 What condition, are your snipers in? Aware? relaxed? Combat?  etc.  should they be in defend/hold?

combat mode - stealth, movement speed - limited,  I use waypoints LOITER and MOVE. Otherwise everything is default

 

3 hours ago, Alwarren said:

 

Units on Waypoints may start to engage if they are close enough and have sufficient knowledge/knowsAbout on enemy units.

This is not close distance, this single units (snipers) are at a distance within 700-1.5 km. At this distance, the AI should not ignore the current waypoints.

 

3 hours ago, Alwarren said:

but I doubt that even with Vanilla they will just stick to their waypoints if they get sufficient knowledge (try to reveal targets to see the effect).

 You should not doubt this. Before, I played my mission only with vanilla AI. When I played with vanilla AI, he does not leave his waypoints.

 

3 hours ago, Alwarren said:

HOLD waypoints are afaik the only ones that cannot be easily broken, and even those will attack if they have enough knowledge.

To date, I played in Arma3 - 4553 hours (Steam statistics). In  90% of this time, I played only against AI or vs AI. I've never seen, AI move with support (any type of waypoints!) within such large distances! Vanilla AI not will do this...

 

 I think that support is a cool feature of ASR AI, but as seems to me, it should work ONLY, if the AI currently is idles, or if this AI currently has special-purpose waypoints (only combat waypoints - destroy, seek and destroy, guard, support). In other cases, the support of allies, at such great distances, must be unacceptable.

 

[Alwarren 2765]

22 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

This is not close distance, this single units (snipers) are at a distance within 700-1.5 km. At this distance, the AI should not ignore the current waypoints.

 

AFAIR ASR AI uses reveal when the units are within a certain range (600 meters default? Can't remember). The range scales when greandes or heavy ordnance is involved.

 

Quote

 You should not doubt this. Before, I played my mission only with vanilla AI. When I played with vanilla AI, he does not leave his waypoints.

 

I know, I had the same problem frequently (although the last version fixed it for me). What I am saying is merely that IF units knowsAbout is high enough, they will engage, and the type of waypoint is irrelevant, especially when it is merely a MOVE waypoint

 

 

Quote

To date, I played in Arma3 - 4553 hours (Steam statistics). In  90% of this time, I played only against AI or vs AI. I've never seen, AI move with support (any type of waypoints!) within such large distances! Vanilla AI not will do this...

 

LOL, sure that proves everything. I have 5400 according to the Steam Statistics. That doesn't say anything though.

Vanilla AI *will* do this *if* they know about the units sufficiently. You can try just using the reveal command.

 

 

Quote

 I think that support is a cool feature of ASR AI, but as seems to me, it should work ONLY, if the AI currently is idles, or if this AI currently has special-purpose waypoints (only combat waypoints - destroy, seek and destroy, guard, support). In other cases, the support of allies, at such great distances, must be unacceptable.

 

I disagree. Move waypoints are the most basic ones, and there shouldn't be any specific handling of these. Most of the specialized waypoints are, well, specialized. Hold, Guard, Support, all of these are very specific. Move is generic. If you don't want them to go elsewhere, set them to SAFE and DO NOT ENGAGE. 

 

The only thing that can be argued about is the range of detection/hearing/radio traffic, but that is an entirely different topic.

 

Anyway, whatever you think. I said my part, don't want to derail Robalo's thread any more.

[cpt.ghost 104]

@robalo the radio support distance slider really affect AI groups if you set the slider to the middle and higher the AI will support their mates according the slider limits you can try it and see by your self

 

@mickeymen reduce the rearm slider to 2 mags it will help keep AI snipers in their positions , its odd but after countless hours of testing and looking for a solution this was very helpful as i found rearming feature keeps the AI thinking to rearm all the time.

[mickeymen 322]

8 hours ago, Alwarren said:

and the type of waypoint is irrelevant, especially when it is merely a MOVE waypoint

The fact that it is irrelevant - It is a problem! The AI exact should take into account the current waypoint. ONLY combat waypoints can be considered for support. In addition, you said - "is only a MOVE waypoint", but in my case this is not just a MOVE waypoint! Pay attention, in my case this is a CYCLED MOVE waypoint! If it's cycled, it means that such a waypoint should not be interrupted.

 

8 hours ago, Alwarren said:

LOL, sure that proves everything. I have 5400 according to the Steam Statistics.

I congratulate you! But I wanted not to brag about my time spent in Arma3! I wanted to say that 4553 hours (Steam statistics) is enough to see that the vanilla AI will not leave its points and move for distances greater than a 1 km, to support an ally.

 

8 hours ago, Alwarren said:

I disagree. Move waypoints are the most basic ones, and there shouldn't be any specific handling of these. Most of the specialized waypoints are, well, specialized. Hold, Guard, Support, all of these are very specific. Move is generic. If you don't want them to go elsewhere, set them to SAFE and DO NOT ENGAGE. 

You do not agree with the obvious. If the mission-maker uses any waypoint, then the AI must complete this waypoint and ONLY after the completion this waypoint, we can talk about support within a 1-1.5 km. According to your logic in Arma3, it is impossible to create patrols for specific areas, since AI will always leave them!  And how I can set "DO NOT ENGAGE",  if I want to create a patrol that must shoot at the enemy?

 

8 hours ago, Alwarren said:

Anyway, whatever you think. I said my part, don't want to derail Robalo's thread any more.

 

I do not know anything about this. But I also do not want this.

 

 

[mickeymen 322]

7 hours ago, cpt.ghost said:

@robalo the radio support distance slider really affect AI groups if you set the slider to the middle and higher the AI will support their mates according the slider limits you can try it and see by your self

Thanks, but it's strange that Robalo does not know anything about this

[road runner 4344]

1 hour ago, mickeymen said:

You do not agree with the obvious. If the mission-maker uses any waypoint, then the AI must complete this waypoint and ONLY after the completion this waypoint, we can talk about support within a 1-1.5 km. According to your logic in Arma3, it is impossible to create patrols for specific areas, since AI will always leave them!  And how I can set "DO NOT ENGAGE",  if I want to create a patrol that must shoot at the enemy?

Surely with 4500 + hours in Arma 3 you'd figure out out how to set up patrol boxes, patrols scripts, and how to edit waypoints so that they do exactly as you want them to do ??

You appear to be constantly griping about what this addon doesn't do, compared to the vast amounts it does do. You also seem to be making snide comments towards the author too, despite the fact he's bending over backwards to appease the overall community.

Give the guy a break, and remember most people have lives outside of modding

[Alwarren 2765]

 

2 hours ago, mickeymen said:

You do not agree with the obvious. If the mission-maker uses any waypoint, then the AI must complete this waypoint and ONLY after the completion this waypoint, we can talk about support within a 1-1.5 km. According to your logic in Arma3, it is impossible to create patrols for specific areas, since AI will always leave them!  And how I can set "DO NOT ENGAGE",  if I want to create a patrol that must shoot at the enemy?

 

After 4553 hours (Steam Statistics) you should know the difference between "Hold Fire" and "Do not engage"

"Hold Fire" means, do not shoot.

"Do not engage" means don't move out of formation. The team leader will sometimes order "4,5, engage that man" and 4 and 5 will move out of formation to engage that guy. If you prohibit that, the group will stick together and be less likely to move away from their route.

[mickeymen 322]

On 23.07.2017 at 11:51 AM, road runner said:

Surely with 4500 + hours in Arma 3 you'd figure out out how to set up patrol boxes, patrols scripts, and how to edit waypoints so that they do exactly as you want them to do ??

 

@road runner, I'm not strong at script writing, but I figure out something. The main thing that I figure out - is that the vanilla AI will not ignore its cycled waypoints. In this case, If I compare with the ASR mod, I find vanilla behavior more appropriate. Moreover, many BIS programmers also think so (if they did it initialy). So I'm not alone in this matter...

 

Yes, probably in the ASR AI, the the missions-maker, also can achieve that the AI does not leave these cyclical waypoints (scripting, thin settings) but why should the player blow up the brain? Is it not easier to make the behavior of AI more adequate initially? There is one hundred percent truth! If the any soldier (AI or human) currently has a waypoint with specific coordinates, this means that he has an order from the commander. Also, the order of the commander can be given to a single soldier, since he can receive this order at the before of the start of mission. We know that soldiers should not break orders and this is an axiom! I can imagine the fact, that the soldier broke his order and fled because of cowardice from the battlefield. This situation is realistic, But fact, when the one soldier leaves his waypoint u ran into battle within a 1-1.5 km, such an example seems absurd to me.

 

All I want to say is that AI -support can be a nice feature of ASR! Yes! Yes! Yes! this is cool feature, but ONLY when the AI is idles or when the AI has a combat waypoint (Destroy, Seek and Destroy, Guard, Support)  ONLY IN THIS CASES! Other waypoints should not be ignored. I think, If such a features in the ASR AI were to be realized, then it would be fine!

Am I wrong in something? Does anyone disagree with this?

 

 

@Alwarren 

As seems to me, You are not attentive to the problem of which I am speaking. I said that single snipers run a distance of more 1 km to the battle and leave their cycled waypoints. 

 

Then, how it:

 

23 hours ago, Alwarren said:

The team leader will sometimes order "4,5, engage that man" and 4 and 5 will move out of formation to engage that guy. If you prohibit that, the group will stick together and be less likely to move away from their route.

 

connected with my problem!? LOL!  What does the team leader, who gives orders? Single shooters have no team leaders, since they are single!

 

And why do you constantly talk about the non-existent combat mode 

On 23.07.2017 at 1:08 AM, Alwarren said:

DO NOT ENGAGE. 

 

23 hours ago, Alwarren said:

"Do not engage" means don't move out of formation. 

 

Probably you are playing out in the old versions of Arma - Arma, Arma2 

If you open the editor of Arma3 and configure the waypoints, then we will see, that this сombat mode "Do not engage" does not exist in general

In the editor of Arma3 we are have only, the following options: 

 

UNCHANGED,

FORCED HOLD FIRE,

DO NOT FIRE, UNLES FIRED UPPON, KEEP FORMATION,

DO NOT FIRE, UNLES FIRED UPPON,

OPEN FIRE, KEEP FORMATION,

OPEN FIRE

[Varanon 892]

3 hours ago, mickeymen said:

All I want to say is that AI -support can be a nice feature of ASR! Yes! Yes! Yes! this is cool feature, but ONLY when the AI is idles or when the AI has a combat waypoint (Destroy, Seek and Destroy, Guard, Support)  ONLY IN THIS CASES! Other waypoints should not be ignored. I think, If such a features in the ASR AI were to be realized, then it would be fine!

Am I wrong in something? Does anyone disagree with this?

 

Yes, I disagree.

 

When is an AI idle ? When it no longer has a waypoint ? 

What about AI groups that follow a cyclical patrol pattern ? With your logic applied, they would never ever "support" anyone since they are never idle. 

Why do you want to exclude move waypoints, but break out of for example guard waypoints ? Why is a group moving to some position more important than a group guarding a position ? 

Your suggestion does not make any sense in a general context. It might sense in very specific circumstances, but definitely not in the general case, and the MOD should cope with the general case only, the specific case you must handle yourself. Honestly, literally 99 % of all cases it doesn't matter, your example might be one of the few where it does matter, so, yes, I disagree with your proposal.

 

If you don't want ASR to meddle with your units: this setvariable ["asr_ai_exclude", true];

If you want to prevent them from attacking until they've reached their waypoint: this disableAI "AUTOTARGET"; this disableAI "AUTOCOMBAT"; and on the waypoint: {_x enableAI "AUTOTARGET"; _x enableAI "AUTOCOMBAT"} foreach units group (thisList select 0);
 

 

[Alwarren 2765]

5 hours ago, mickeymen said:

Probably you are playing out in the old versions of Arma - Arma, Arma2 

 

Probably you are trolling, or just ignorant, or both.

It doesn't matter what color you paint it, it's still the same thing - Hold Fire != Do not engage. NOTHING, really nothing has changed in that respect, they are just called differently but the concept is still the same, a concept that you apparently have not grasped yet, so I would recommend reading some introductory texts on the AI.

 

If you want to split hairs, go ahead, if you want to keep whining, go ahead, in the meantime the world has run out of fucks to give, and so have I.

 

[lordprimate 159]

mikeymen why are you here and what do you want rabalo to do... he has already stated that this mod is made and developed for himself and his group. We are Lucky, i repeat, "Lucky" that he released it to us/ the arma community to dissect, and utilize in our own way. Im reading your posts and im trying to get what you want but i just dont see it... Why are you still here. saying the same thing over and over and over and over.....  I know rabalo has responded to you and answered your questions directly. what else are you expecting here? maybe you should Use Rapoters Version of ASRAI.. or if your having issues with someone elses PAIN STAKING WORK. Use ANOTHER... or NONE AT ALL.. Just for sanity sake move on bro... this is getting old and moldy... where the bathroom

 

and with this following quote made by you. Ill retort....

9 hours ago, mickeymen said:

 

@road runner, I'm not strong at script writing, but I figure out something. The main thing that I figure out - is that the vanilla AI will not ignore its cycled waypoints. In this case, If I compare with the ASR mod, I find vanilla behavior more appropriate. Moreover, many BIS programmers also think so (if they did it initialy). So I'm not alone in this matter..

 

if you feel this way STOP USING ASR_AI .... DUH.... use something else if you dont like it... And like road runner said.. with that many hours in the game you should know some scripting by now. So figure it out Brah....... goodluck in life dude... #yourannoyingAF

[mickeymen 322]

On 24.07.2017 at 4:40 PM, Varanon said:

When is an AI idle ? When it no longer has a waypoint ? 

What about AI groups that follow a cyclical patrol pattern ? With your logic applied, they would never ever "support" anyone since they are never idle. 

 

Well, with your logic, waypoint in Arma3 not have the slightest sense.

 

Yes exactly!  Only by understanding the artificial intelligence of the current waypoins, the player can get adequate gameplay with AI!

You speak as if  the autor of ASR mod, has created a truly smart intelligence, and now he doesn't need a correction via waypoints, because the AI is now known to all - when and what to do! Lol!  Sorry, but this sounds absurd.

 

You want AI support?-  Then use specific waypoint - SUPPORT waypoint!

You want AI-movement? Then use to MOVE waypoint! 

You want AI-attack? Then use to SEEK AND DESTROY waypoint!  THIS IS THE CONCEPTION OF ARMA!

 

Yes the AI during the execution of the waypoints, must be able to attack/defense , but this AI must not ignore the basic order, otherwise, the waypoint in the game, doesn't matter. In the mission there may be times, when the AI-movement can be a priority and the AI should not be stupid enough to ignore his first priority. If AI, ignores his waypoint, then this AI ignores the concept of the game, as a whole! 

 

 If someone does not understand this, then I try to explain it. If someone continues not to understand this, then I am powerless.

 

 

On 24.07.2017 at 6:36 PM, Alwarren said:

 

so I would recommend reading some introductory texts on the AI.

 

 

Thanks for your recommendations. In turn, I will recommend you at least sometimes, to open the editor of Arma3 and read what it writen.

[road runner 4344]

5 hours ago, mickeymen said:

but this AI must not ignore the basic order, otherwise, the waypoint in the game, doesn't matter. In the mission there may be times, when the AI-movement can be a priority and the AI should not be stupid enough to ignore his first priority.

The whole point of it being called AI or artificial intelligence is to give off the impression they have a somewhat concept of "thinking for themselves", especially within arma, and any other game. 

You are looking for something within this whole game that is out of the realms of true AI. Once again, you're ignoring what the purpose of what this addon gives, and offers, and the extent certain AI performance/capabilities are severely limited within ArmA. You just cannot compare A3 with any other games that support AI, even previous incantations by BI, as no doubt, the scriptwriter's are not the same people.

Others are also trying to point out certain things but you are just not willing to accept any sort of reasoning, your word has to be heard with regards to this author. It's what you want, and to hell with everyone else.

 

There are reasons why things like UPSMON patrol scripts are written, it's to allow AI a greater "degree of freedom" when it comes to their behaviour.

Robalo, and other AI scriptwriters have done some awesome work, and their dynamics certainly change the whole game, I'd personally love to see AI climb up and down ladders, on request, or the ability to not walk off a roof after fast roping onto, for example the hospital in Karvala, but hey ho, it is what it is, the secret is playing the game with the tools and addons at your disposal, and being happy with it, not whining and bitching about the hard work and effort that's gone in to this particular AI addon, since it's first release. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Maybe take up your requests with Robalo, the creator in a PM, he may respond to you more sympathetically.?

[Alwarren 2765]

9 hours ago, mickeymen said:

Thanks for your recommendations. In turn, I will recommend you at least sometimes, to open the editor of Arma3 and read what it writen.

 

LOL

[mickeymen 322]

On 27.07.2017 at 8:46 AM, road runner said:

Robalo, and other AI scriptwriters have done some awesome work, and their dynamics certainly change the whole game

I'm not arguing that. I have repeatedly admired this mod! I just want this mod became better, while some users, are ready to tear me. 
 

[mickeymen 322]

I play dozens of my old missions with the ASR mod and I can not recognize my old missions, because AI ignores plan of these missions, which I created by means waypoints. Yes, with ASR, the AI has become much more dangerous opponent and this is good, but also ASR, broke the intent of some missions, this is opposite side of one coin

[Devastator_cm 434]

anybody knows where can I find the opfor optional file? The withsix link is dead as they are shutting down their service

[Alwarren 2765]

On 8/1/2017 at 10:21 AM, mickeymen said:

I play dozens of my old missions with the ASR mod and I can not recognize my old missions, because AI ignores plan of these missions, which I created by means waypoints. Yes, with ASR, the AI has become much more dangerous opponent and this is good, but also ASR, broke the intent of some missions, this is opposite side of one coin

 

Try lowering the radio communication range, if in doubt to zero.

[mickeymen 322]

59 minutes ago, Alwarren said:

 

Try lowering the radio communication range, if in doubt to zero.

 

Ok, but then how about what exactly did Robalo say:

Quote

 

Radio report does not imply groups moving in to support. Again, there is no such option "support distance"

 

?

 

[kremator 1064]

2 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

 

Ok, but then how about what exactly did Robalo say:

 

?

 

Then please accept that it breaks your missions and don't use it! Simple. 

[Alwarren 2765]

15 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

Ok, but then how about what exactly did Robalo say:

 

Radio communication increases other group's knowsAbout. It does not per se trigger "support", what the AI does with that knowledge is up to them. 

There are also values (though I don't know if they are configurable) to scale the hearing of large caliber munitions (grenades, launchers, cannons) which will also make enemies aware.

 

Finally, use HOLD waypoints if you don't want to have AI move away from a position. I used to use BIS_fnc_taskDefend, but IIRC that uses a GUARD waypoint.

[mickeymen 322]

1 hour ago, kremator said:

Then please accept that it breaks your missions and don't use it! Simple. 

No, because it has more advantages than disadvantages

 

1 hour ago, Alwarren said:

 

Radio communication increases other group's knowsAbout. It does not per se trigger "support", what the AI does with that knowledge is up to them. 

There are also values (though I don't know if they are configurable) to scale the hearing of large caliber munitions (grenades, launchers, cannons) which will also make enemies aware.

 

Thanks for info

 

1 hour ago, Alwarren said:

Finally, use HOLD waypoints if you don't want to have AI move away from a position. I used to use BIS_fnc_taskDefend, but IIRC that uses a GUARD waypoint.

 

These are variations only for static units. With this, there is no problem, because I can easily deprive units of movement, using a AI-module in the editor. However, in my case, I wanted my several single-snipers to move with random periodicity and only in a given radius (stealth mode). Such an snipers, could be more unpredictable and dangerous. It is for this reason that I am talking about the special movement, without rapprochement with the enemy. As it seems to me, the sniper should not approach to the enemy. He must only maneuver over a long distance, since the purpose of a sniper is to destroy an enemy from afar.

 

PS 

It would be not bad, if Robalo took into account the class of soldier, who should use distant support. Thus, single snipers should not be taken into account. 

However, if this does not happen, Then it's okay. As I said this mod has more advantages than disadvantages.