Ukraine General

[oxmox 73]

Seems like the reforms stuck somehow...

 

Ukraine bans officials from criticizing government (Reuters)

Ukraine banned government officials on Tuesday from publicly criticizing the work of state institutions and their colleagues,

after damaging disclosures last month that highlighted slow progress in fighting corruption.

 

The move immediately drew criticism from some civil servants who saw it as a blow to freedom of speech at odds

with the embattled government's Western-backed reform drive.

 

"The government has decided to introduce standards of ethical conduct for civil servants to restore public faith in the work

of the state bodies and officials," the decree said.

 

The rule on "loyalty" is one of several outlined in a new ethics code that civil servants must follow or face disciplinary action,

according to a decree posted on the government website.

 

Government employees should "avoid any public criticisms of the work of state institutions and their officials,"

the code stipulates, alongside rules on the need for transparency and integrity.

 

In a Facebook post about the new ethics code, Olena Minitch, a department head in the economy ministry, said the new rules

appeared to have been "created hastily and adopted quickly" in the wake of Abromavicius's allegations about corrupt state practices.

 

"The little document ... is in the best traditions of the Communist period, more precisely in the traditions of Stalin and Beria,"

Minitch said, referring to repressive Soviet leader Josef Stalin and his security chief, Lavrenty Beria.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-censorship-idUSKCN0W351A

 

 

 

 

 

Ukraine will not join EU, NATO for another 20-25 years, Juncker says (dpa - March 3, 2016)

Brussels (dpa) - It will take Ukraine at least another 20 years to join the European Union or NATO,

a top EU official predicted Thursday, dashing hopes in the country for quick accessions to the bloc and the military alliance.

 

The push for closer ties between Ukraine and the EU lies at the heart of the current crisis in the former Soviet country,

which was triggered by protests in 2013 over a failed attempt to finalize an EU-Ukraine free trade deal.

 

The agreement has since been signed and implemented, while the EU is paving the way for Ukrainian citizens to be able to

visit the bloc without visas. Top officials in Ukraine have also repeatedly expressed the wish to join the EU.

But European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker said during a speech in The Hague on Thursday that

"Ukraine will definitely not be able to become a member of the EU in the next 20-25 years, and not of NATO either."

 

http://www.dpa-international.com/news/top_stories/ukraine-will-not-join-eu-natofor-another-20-25-years-juncker-says-a-48506292.html

[d_lukin 16]

Ukraine bans officials from criticizing government (Reuters)

 

 

in addition there is an interesting criminal article in Ukraine, #110, called "domestic separatism" - punishment 7 to 12 years in prison  :huh:

 

 

 

 

Ukraine will not join EU, NATO for another 20-25 years, Juncker says (dpa - March 3, 2016)

 

 

This news is very strong demoralized Ukrainian cyber warriors  :P

[oxmox 73]

 

tonci87, on 21 Mar 2016

Yeah, that would have been the proper way to do it. Get political support and then conduct an open, internationally monitored referendum to vote the crim out of Ukraine.

Not only was the Russian referendum obviously manipulated, but even the Pro Russians on the Krim were as surprised by the sudden invasion as the Ukrainians...

 

I have a lot of Ukrainian and Russian (more Russians then Ukrainians) colleagues at work and they all get along very well. They also all agree that what Russia/Putin did to Ukraine was wrong. What makes them sad is that they know that Russia and Ukraine, two countries that have been quite close in their relations, will never again get a good partnership. This (still unresolved) conflict will always stand between them.

 

 

 

For regular ukrainian people its worse than before, they did reach as good as nothing with their revolution which was also supported from outside like other color revolutions. The economy of the country is destroyed and takes decades to recover, the former importance of the russian economical relations is broken, not only the Crimea is lost but also the economy strong east. The EU/NATO is not interested into the Ukraine as a member for a longer time, the corruption in the Ukraine is as good as bad as before. Instead of closer ties with Russia, the new government has closer ties with a different power(s).

[Tonci87 163]

In my opinion the Ukrainian people fucked up when they allowed ANY of the former politicians to keep their position. Should have simply fired everybody and started fresh with educated people.

 

It´s teh same as on the Balkan. The biggest mistake all nations there made was to allow ex-communists to keep positions of power or get back into those. They simply continued to rule the country with the same degree of corruption as before.

All countries on the Balkan would be far better off if after the disbanding of Yugoslavia the people banned all politicians from politics for life.

[x3kj 1247]

And you think new people are not corruptable? That's naive. Corruption will simply shift from blatant to less blatant and less obvious...

 

 

The economy of the country is destroyed and takes decades to recover, the former importance of the russian economical relations is broken, not only the Crimea is lost but also the economy strong east.

Also, local economic power is destroyed, making it cheap and easy for foreign investors to take controll ...  surprise surprise.

[Tonci87 163]

And you think new people are not corruptable? That's naive. Corruption will simply shift from blatant to less blatant and less obvious...

 

Also, local economic power is destroyed, making it cheap and easy for foreign investors to take controll ...  surprise surprise.

 

No of course they are, but they wouldn´t be as organised and connected in their corruption as the old elites are. Plus, when you start fresh you can also start with tight anti corruption control.

[spooky lynx 73]

No of course they are, but they wouldn´t be as organised and connected in their corruption as the old elites are. Plus, when you start fresh you can also start with tight anti corruption control.

Our experience tells that they organize pretty fast and then start stealing even more and faster than old corrupts just because old ones got much already for themselves and for all their relatives and new ones are only at the beginning

of it.

[Tonci87 163]

In my experience the old ones never get slower at stealing, they get even better at it, and bolder since they get a feeling that they are untouchable.

[archbishop lazarus 24]

When Yanukovich was still in charge, the people behind "Euromaidan" already agreed with the EU and USA about the mass privatization of state property, and even worse, the land itself... (Monsanto is now free to grow its cancer-wheat, to poison western europe) So its not about the old politicians. Actually, the people of Donbass clearly saw this, and this is why they began their movement. 

[oxmox 73]

Dutch say ‘no’ to treaty with Ukraine

 

After the Government of the Ukraine in 2013 decided not to sign the Association Agreement with the EU,  mass protests did start and this did lead to the Maidan Revolution and the conflict.

 

The Netherlands did hold a referendum today and the results are rather shocking, guess what ?

 

 

64% did vote against the Association Agreement between the Ukraine and the EU.

 

Of those who did vote 64% voted against the treaty and 36% were for. Opinion polls had consistently forecast a ‘no’ vote.

 

There is only one issue with the overall amount of voters currently: The Nos is 29% and the referendum turnout has to beat the 30% mark for the results to have any legal weight and the Nos poll has a 3% margin of error.

 

 

 

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/04/88341-2

[ProfTournesol 956]

Indeed, who seriously want another poor and corrupted country the EU ?

[Dwarden 1124]

Dutch say ‘no’ to treaty with Ukraine

 

After the Government of the Ukraine in 2013 decided not to sign the Association Agreement with the EU,  mass protests did start and this did lead to the Maidan Revolution and the conflict.

 

The Netherlands did hold a referendum today and the results are rather shocking, guess what ?

 

 

64% did vote against the Association Agreement between the Ukraine and the EU.

 

Of those who did vote 64% voted against the treaty and 36% were for. Opinion polls had consistently forecast a ‘no’ vote.

 

There is only one issue with the overall amount of voters currently: The Nos is 29% and the referendum turnout has to beat the 30% mark for the results to have any legal weight and the Nos poll has a 3% margin of error.

 

 

 

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/04/88341-2

ok, I think that's sort of Stupid from Dutch because this is treaty toward something, not joining them into EU at all ...

total failure of EU to 'accept' compatible members (Ukraine, Moldovo, Macedonia, Iceland) while still no balls tell Turkey they aren't compatible ...

[JdB 151]

ok, I think that's sort of Stupid from Dutch because this is treaty toward something, not joining them into EU at all ...

total failure of EU to 'accept' compatible members (Ukraine, Moldovo, Macedonia, Iceland) while still no balls tell Turkey they aren't compatible ...

There were previously association agreements with Slovenia, Romania and Bulgaria, with our prime ministers vowing they would never get into the EU before thorough reforms had been put in place. The projection was a decade or two before this could stand a chance. Three few years later they were in none the less with corruption still rampant and reforms either not carried out or not implemented in the first place. That's why a lot of people voted no. Because the EU doesn't care about it's citizens and sovereign states of Europe but only about itself and the power it can give itself to make them feel important. Because our politicians lie to us and fully support the EU even though the majority of voters is fed up with the EU putting down the law in our country. It was visible and audible already on tv with the usual suspects among the party leaders that just couldn't contain their big smile and words full of disdain for the electorate at how they were going to ignore us yet again. Because the prospect of having to close down even more retirement homes and slash other social welfare that took generations to create and that people worked to get in 40+ years of employment to throw money at yet another corrupt impoverished country is not something people over here look forward to. All of those benefits have been destroyed in the 20 years that have passed since the iron curtain fell and the EU felt the need to rapidly expand by throwing money at poor countries without a real accounting of where the money was spent and no firm actions if conditions weren't being met.

That is one of the main concerns with this agreement actually that voters seem to have, that it doesn't stipulate requirements that the Ukrainians need to meet combined with consequences if they do not meet them. In it's current form this agreement is yet another case of aimlessly throwing money at a country known for epic forms of corruption. Really easy to do when you have next to zero accountability and the money isn't yours.

Saw loads of pompous self indulged EU-employed clowns popping up on Twitter saying it's only 0,6% of the EU and that 27/28 countries ratified the treaty conveniently forgetting to mention that unlike us no one asked the remaining 99,4% how they feel about it.

Ah yes Moldova and Macedonia, two other shining examples of corrupt states run by organized crime. Iceland was offered a path to EU-membership, accepted it after the economic collapse in 2008 then withdrew again after the country had gotten back up in 2013. Another country that was trying to leech off of us, I should say leeching even more after they tried to con British and Dutch people out of their savings.

[Dwarden 1124]

@JdB you mean as corrupt as the old EU countries or wasting money at the members who being in EU 20-30 years longer than us ?

did you even checked the economy of Europe ?

the Baltic states and central Europe states like Czech and Slovakia have stable economy and usable grow despite bureaucracy and corruption burden

EU isn't exclusive club as you trying to pretend and it wasn't de-cluttered even before accepting us in 2004

but now I starting to think if the East, Middle and South-east states formed theirs 'no-EU-mess' coalition then it would outshine old EU ;)

and if countries are in mess, they shall ask about who they let immigrate / take social welfare and for sure it's not citizens from central Europe ...

so think strategically not just economically

regions like Macedonia, Montegero, Moldova , Serbia and even Ukraine, Bosnia&Hercegovina should be part of main-land formation like EU

yes they would not be part of Schengen and got some 'stricter' rules, but they are close culture to us and actually progressive (reformable)

if it was done 3 years ago e.g. with Croatia, we would have unified borders and only 2 edge cases to protect land-borders (Russia, Turkey) with rest sea

e.g. in EU one of the massive problems was with EURO as single-tier financial system,

where countries in South totally weren't in economically parity with counties in North or West, thus caused bleeding to everyone else

[ProfTournesol 956]

@JdB you mean as corrupt as the old EU countries or wasting money at the members who being in EU 20-30 years longer than us ?did you even checked the economy of Europe ?the Baltic states and central Europe states like Czech and Slovakia have stable economy and usable grow despite bureaucracy and corruption burdenEU isn't exclusive club as you trying to pretend and it wasn't de-cluttered even before accepting us in 2004but now I starting to think if the East, Middle and South-east states formed theirs 'no-EU-mess' coalition then it would outshine old EU ;)and if countries are in mess, they shall ask about who they let immigrate / take social welfare and for sure it's not citizens from central Europe ...

Well, i disagree with the last sentence. There's a lot of East European workers in the West...how much they do benefit from social welfare is a problem in the UK, afaik. This immigration from the East is far from being something new, so we get used to it.

[Dwarden 1124]

workers != those who abuse social system , workers pay taxes (or theirs employer does instead of them) ...

I talk about those who don't pay single dime into system, picking out the reserves in whole EU

also don't forget quite some of the 'central/east/south-east' countries never received proper WW2 reparations nor Marshall plan (thanks to USSR)

so it's sort of just excuses to find reason why everyone else is bad

oh wait, but you happily paid 30 years to corrupted South countries just to watch them go on verge of bankrupt repeatedly

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, i think the EU should have stayed at 12 countries. The association with other countries should strictly be a free of tax exchange zone. No free movements, no economical integration, no Shengen outside of those countries. It was done way too soon and now EU institutions are almost impossible to work correctly. But that's OT.

[JdB 151]

Well, i think the EU should have stayed at 12 countries. The association with other countries should strictly be a free of tax exchange zone. No free movements, no economical integration, no Shengen outside of those countries. It was done way too soon and now EU institutions are almost impossible to work correctly. But that's OT.

Me too. Germany, France, UK, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria + Switzerland, Finland and Norway if possible, Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia maybe as well. Countries that share economic, cultural, common origin of languages (except France/Switzerland obviously), ethnic and historical ties + are generally known for responsible economic behaviour. As we've seen Greece, Spain and Italy like to live the good life without worries, let someone else sacrifice their pension funds to fix those and mass protests to boot when we try to bail them out of bankruptcy and anarchy.

A "Northern" Euro would have been one of the strongest currencies/economies in the world. Basically the EU without the uncooperative resource drains from the south and east. Any other cooperation can be dealt with in Free Trade Agreements and NATO.

The reason countries like Poland experienced a boom when the old members of the EU were seeing economic stagnation and decline is because those countries were in such a poor state that the only way was up (low wages, ability to travel to Western Europe for work), with the help of countless billions from the EU, IMF etc. Our own economies paid the price with low wage workers getting our own people fired since the foreigners could be paid in their home countries meaning they cost 1/4 of a native. Oh the joys of economic integration.

To put together England, Wales and Scotland took hundreds of years of fighting and even now a sizeable portion wants out. And those are people that have shared over a millennium together on the same island. Most of Central and Eastern Europe was added to the EU in less than 10 years after having been robbed clean and neglected by the Russians for nearly half a century.

[Dwarden 1124]

in the the problem is in dumb leadership and as low as possible bureaucracy w/o corruption not in making 'wider unions' with 'logical' basis ...

[dontknowhow 33]

Well, i think the EU should have stayed at 12 countries. The association with other countries should strictly be a free of tax exchange zone. No free movements, no economical integration, no Shengen outside of those countries. It was done way too soon and now EU institutions are almost impossible to work correctly. But that's OT.

Too kind, I would have stayed with 6 plus a few more. And no common currency. But yes, it's OT.

Too much enthusiasm, that's the problem

 

in the the problem is in dumb leadership and as low as possible bureaucracy w/o corruption not in making 'wider unions' with 'logical' basis ...

logical bias?

[Dwarden 1124]

basis = base = foundation

[dontknowhow 33]

basis = base = foundation

Interesting, now I am not sure if I misread or mistyped.

I'm all pro union, so I for me the problem is a wider union with little democracy and no corruption, and more dynamism, and more responsibility, and more of a lot of things :-).

But I guess I have a different approach.

[Rydygier 1302]

Poland: Parliament adopted a resolution on the Volyn with the statement about genocide
 

In the resolution the Parliament recalls that in July 2016 marks the 73 anniversary of the peak of the crimes that have made civilians branches of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), and the Division of the SS Galicia and other Ukrainian formations cooperating with Germany.
"As a result, committed during the 1943-1945 genocide were murdered over a hundred thousand citizens of the Second Republic, mainly peasants. Their exact number is still not known, and many of them still did not live a dignified burial and commemoration" - reads the resolution.
Members recalled that among the victims, in addition to Poles, were also Jews, Armenians, Czechs, representatives of other minorities, as well as Ukrainians, who stood on the side of the victims.

 

 

"Recalling the crimes of Ukrainian nationalists can not pass over in silence or relativize Polish reprisals on the Ukrainian villages as a result of which also civilians died" - it is a fragment of the resolution.
"Polish Sejm expressed respect and gratitude to the Ukrainians, who are saving their lives saved Poles and urges the president to honor these people state awards. Parliament also recalls the attitude of a large part of the Ukrainian population, which refused to participate in attacks on Poles" - says the resolution.

 

Poland has the right and duty to speak about the consequences of historical policy that is currently in Ukraine. He noted that the resolution is not aimed at the Ukrainian nation, but points to the murderers, people and organizations that were responsible for the genocide.
"This is not the Ukrainian nation that commited the crime, but tens of thousands of individuals working in the OUN, UPA and the SS Galicia" - he stressed.
'' Not about revenge, but about the memory of the victims cry out '. This call finally came to the Polish Parliament. This is an historic moment "

 

[spooky lynx 73]

I wonder what changes will it bring to Polish-Ukrainian relations, especially concerning current Ukrainian state policy of OUN-UPA and SS Galicina glorification.

[danil-ch 165]

Reburial of soldiers 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVk63fqJ9hI