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batto

Ukraine General

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to Comm

Interesting... you write "I don't think you are allowed to speak for all "ex-Soviet" nations." and then right after "Ukrainians are trying to sustain something they have for decades now". Sound like vilas not allowed to speak.. but you do. Even if you know perfectly well that it only west part of Ukraine, not even half of general population, trying to break out.

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to Comm

Interesting... you write "I don't think you are allowed to speak for all "ex-Soviet" nations." and then right after "Ukrainians are trying to sustain something they have for decades now". Sound like vilas not allowed to speak.. but you do. Even if you know perfectly well that it only west part of Ukraine, not even half of general population, trying to break out.

Sorry but what you're trying to point out isn't contradicting because it's virtualy happening right now in front of everyone's eyes. Who speaks from "breaking out" ? nobody mentioned EU aspiration ( which wasn't even the damn topic because association agreement has nothing to do with EU, get it finaly ! ) It's about sustaining integrity and yes, majority of Ukrainians disapprove seperation right now. At this very moment. Yes. 2001 figure states no more than 17% are Russians, more than 77% Ukrainians. You don't know if all Russians want seperation, you don't know if all Ukrainians want their country to be one, but one thing is sure. Great majority disapproves it. Why should they give in to 10-17%. Especialy without any reason and background standing behind such activities and Russian military intervention. It's not like someone calls for Ukraine to be cleaned of Russians or anyone even touching Russians. How you explain to back up this obviously Kremlo staged theatralic prelude to a war ? Explain me, with what argument you gonna back that up ?

Edited by Comm_Yuri

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Forget it Yuri. He, like many other Russians have this inferiority complex where they see the Western world, with small niceties such as democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, etc. and feel so jealous they have to hide behind this mask of Russia being an awesome place that every neighbour likes if he's not a fascist, is exempt from international law because of general awesomeness, etc. to make up for the fact that they still live under a dictator.

Ask maturin, he had a pretty good summary of it.

Also, I'm feeling a lot like posting a picture of civvies in the Soviet Union gladly posing with the new occupiers, the Germans, before understanding what they were bringing to them, but have this nasty feeling I'd definitely get an infraction for it. So I'll just make this note: History shows no existence of a "photos taken with occupiers/good guy qualities of said occupiers" ratio.

Edited by scrim

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Also, I'm feeling a lot like posting a picture of civvies in the Soviet Union gladly posing with the new occupiers, the Germans, before understanding what they were bringing to them, but have this nasty feeling I'd definitely get an infraction for it. So I'll just make this note: History shows no existence of a "photos taken with occupiers/good guy qualities of said occupiers" ratio.

Are you blind? Don't you get that eastern Ukraine is pro-Russian? Seriously, you're the worst. You don't care about people, you care only about your twisted ideology feelings.

EDIT: I wish UA would be part EU (not considering all the EU problems now) for no valid reason. I'd just sleep better. But you have to be realist and not look at world through your ideology glasses. To me it seems that UA split is best possible outcome now.

Edited by batto

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to comm

you simply can't "sustaining integrity" if half of the population moving "left" and the other half moving "right". You separate them by Russian and Ukrainian. It is not correct. The are are more then 50 different nationality's in Ukraine. They divided by Russian speaking (mostly east) and non-Russian speaking (mostly west). Do i'm support wish of west Ukrainians joining EU.. yes i totally do. Do i'm support wish of west Ukrainians joining EU... and ignoring what other half of the country want ? No, i'm not. Do i'm support wish of east Ukrainians joining Russia.. yes i totally do. Do i'm support wish of east Ukrainians joining Russia... and ignoring what other half of the country want ? No, i don't.

I don't know where you get this 10-17% ... but eastern part of Ukraine much more dense. I will asume more accurate numbers will be 40 for west and 60 for east (last election numbers very close to this numbers at least)

meanwhile... Russian invasion in Ukraine in full force...

997718055.jpg

Edited by AKM74

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Are you blind? Don't you get that eastern Ukraine is pro-Russian? Seriously, you're the worst. You don't care about people, you care only about your twisted ideology feelings.

EDIT: I wish UA would be part EU (not considering all the EU problems now) for no valid reason. I'd just sleep better. But you have to be realist and not look at world through your ideology glasses. To me it seems that UA split is best possible outcome now.

Excuse me? In Crimea, just below 60% of the people are ethnic Russians, and I don't even think all of them want to be annexed by Russia, or are even pro-Russian. As for the rest of even eastern Ukraine, please explain why everyone there would be pro-Russian?

No, splitting Ukraine is not a good option. Just exactly what is it that WW2 didn't learn you about what ultimately happens when we allow dictators to go into other European countries and nick half their land under the premise of protecting their ethnic citizens?

Here's a hint: It's bad enough when third world countries are at war with each other, or against first or second world countries. When first and second world countries are at war against each other, the carnage that such industrially and technologically capable states will cause nowadays is just mind blowing.

Edited by scrim

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Excuse me? In Crimea, just below 60% of the people are ethnic Russians, and I don't even think all of them want to be annexed by Russia, or are even pro-Russian.

Except the numbers, the same could be said for western Ukraine (and even for Kiev!) and new government.

As for the rest of even eastern Ukraine, please explain why everyone there would be pro-Russian?

Read what I write.

Just exactly what is it that WW2 didn't learn you about what ultimately happens when we allow dictators to go into other European countries and nick half their landunder the premise of protecting their ethnic citizens?

STOP with this slippery slope crap already! It doesn't matter what the premise is. Everybody knows it's about strategic goals. But they're welcomed there!

EDIT: As for the photos, I feel some of them may be pre-scripted for political purposes...

Edited by batto

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Yeah, except the West has yet to A, invade Ukraine, B, talk of separating Ukraine, and C, talked of annexing half of Ukraine. See the tiny difference there?

Yeah, no, it's not crap. The moment we sit on our behinds and say "oh well, what the heck? He's just invaded a sovereign nation, the borders of which are recognized by the world, and is preparing to put a puppet in power, or outright annex it", as you are now, is the moment we start heading towards another world war. Will it be Putin who leads us there tomorrow? Not likely, but if we stop caring about flagrant violations of international law dictating the fundamental rights of democratic states not to be invaded at will by dictators and regimes, then those people will have learnt that they can get away with it, and that will lead us to a world war one day.

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to scrim

So what the alternative ? What you propose ? Just left them alone. Let them kill each other (as they did in Kiev). Let hundred of thousands peoples die in civil war, millions to be displaced ... This will make you happy ?

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You know how many businessmen left Russia or ceased to trade with Russia after the 2008 war ?

one ? or two cause Russians stopped buying from them ? were they German businessmen ? French ? British ? cause last week they were so active when Polish pork was banned due to pigs disease, not saying about whole sportswear very active in olympics,

it will lead to peoples starting seperating from eachother in all other regions around the globe

many Brits already would love to leave EU, Basks would wish to have their land, i am not against that nations want to be self-ruled, Chechens have right to their freedom , Kurds have right to their freedom, Palestinians, Basks, even Scotch if they feel so,

if we say that integrity is prior, we should never ever say anything about Chechens and we should remember that Kuwait was part of Persia and Saddam in 1990 also wanted keep integrity of somehing which Brits took in begining of XX c,

if we say that we should fight when human rights are broken, we should fight equally with anyone who breaks it, if we say we respect cultures and nations right, we should respect also religious-bigotry-states,

really , marriage in which people hate each other is not good to keep by force 2 people as one marriage, the same with Crimean area, if there is ethnically Russia ? i underlined IF , cause i do not know how it looks in real in numbers, thats why i use hypotetical IF,

If you don't give a dam about another nation's integrity, you don't give a dam about yours and that's when you loose it for me.

in our politically correct Europe, people who want power of their nation, who love their culture, tradition, who want their welfare and strong industry are called nazis, fascists, homophobic, extreme, Talibs, bigots, xenophobic, and such like, Russia builds their power and look how all spit at them, while in fact they build their economy stronger and they have income raise, people from Russia can say, i know few people from Russia, in small towns they earn like me in capitol city of Poland, people working in Moscow earn more than in London, all thanx to Putin policy on natural resources,

i know it is kind of brainswashing by all what is called NWO or Bilderberg group, guys who have international companies would wish to kill any patriotism, any culture, any tradition, any religion and make all "global market" (which of course they own and controll, other way they say about need to bring freedom) and because i am patriot, i respect other people patriotism and will to be independent and strong economically,

and how big hypocrisy is in this,

when US citizen set US flat on his property, buys only US cars, do shopping only in US shops it is natural, when German buys German car and has money in German bank it is also good, when Pole has Polish flag and says he wants Polish sausage in Polish shop he is called nazi, fascist, xenophobic and etc. the same with Ukrainian right wing, on west they say their patriotism is good, our not,

because in fact when we are patriots, we do not buy their product and we want to tax their companies,

so you see ...

i am telling you how it happens , i am not telling whether i like it , i may hate what happens, but i am telling how it happens, why it happens,

so you misunderstand me , i do give a damn, even you do not know how much i do, but ... people buy propaganda and they vote for polically correct parties which later sell all cheap,

if country is not powerful it cannot do anything serious, cause all will end in bloodbath, that's why it is so important to have your own strong army , if Ukraine had atomic bomb they could threat, so far Ukraine is under-invested and has only rifles , old Soviet T64, some T80, a few T84, Ukraine can only stand 1 day with Russia, Ukraine even doesn't have missiles to strike Putin on Kremlin,

when you cannot smash and destroy someone, you must be polite to that person cause he is stronger, when you are strong, you can enforce your will, thats how politics or business works (it is not moral, but thats how it works)

when you relly on your customers, you must be polite to your customers to sell your job, if you are monopolist, they must be nice to you cause you can sell them or not,

but Ukraine doesn't have anything and can do a shit, except being nice cause when Russia will stop buying from Ukraine agricultural products, Ukrainian business will starve like in 30s, conflicts with Russia ends always in empty pocket,

so only advice is go stronger and stronger, than you can hit, but till you are weak, you must be nice and polite, meainwhile earn and collect money to have 1000 not 10 T84 Oplots,

so after this too long introduction for your question

If you don't give a dam about another nation's integrity, you don't give a dam about yours and that's when you loose it for me.

if you think that any country will react , please re-read again my previous posts, polticians do not care about you, about me, about those individuals here,

we usual people are helping each other , politicians, busisnemsn, economists are different, they don't do it, they will not help Ukraine, they will go to make deals with Putin cause they can sell something or buy gas cheaper, so their voters will see cheaper gas and will be happy, if Poland would be attacked noone would help,

and do not misunderstand me like i was not giving a damn about Ukrainian people, if you read my posts you know i do, but i try to explain how dirty politics works and what is most secure in such situation,

tishe yedesh, dalshe budesh , for good of Ukrainian people - they must focus now on being strong in economy and build their wealth , if Ukraine will not focus, it will end like colony of NWO, Ukrainian girls will be main manpower in brothels of EU, Ukrainian boys will be washing streets everywhere, pride will end washing street of London after graduation on university,

in 1939 Churchil said (or not he?) that noone in London is going to die for Gdansk (Danzig),

believe me, noone in Berlin or London will die for Kiev today too, they rather die to sell more BMW, Mercedes to Moscow rich guys,

Comm don't be angry on what i wrote, i try to act like doctor who says "you have disease, why it happened, how to prevent it in future", not sitting and crying with patient without giving explanation of process,

no matter how we all care , politicians don't (apart from showing off in TV when they fight like lions when camera is on, when camera is off they do not care at all) and busines don't , if we had any influence we would have to like in Switzerland where there are referendums

what we can do when we see soveirgn country invaded ?

- if this country has "oil" than saviour is on his way,

- if this country has no "oil" than our mainstream media will tell voters "fascists, nazis, talibs make terror actions against government" or they will say nothing,

- vote other way in future after getting knowlegde from different sources and different people like here and convince our neigborhood also to vote differently, because majority around us doesn't give shit about anything other than what is size of boobs of Miley Cyrus, what Justin Bieber drunk today, what is newest Madonna song and what will be newest GTA, they vote, they will outvote use Comm :(

---------------------

Also, I'm feeling a lot like posting a picture of civvies in the Soviet Union gladly posing with the new occupiers, the Germans, before understanding what they were bringing to them, but have this nasty feeling I'd definitely get an infraction for it.

during WW2 a lot of women were dating with Germans while men fought, why ? men doesn't love jewelry and man can put his honor higher while women rather choose man with bigger wallet, for sure occupant during WW2 had his wallet much thicker, but you will call me sexist for this so rather not need to say more ;) but i know a lot of what was happening during WW2, biology is sexist and not polically correct, when you will loose job and your woman will leave you the same day because she wants new perfumes you will understand, i was left 3 times because of my poor salary in past by 3 girls, in crisis people behave wild with instincts from stone-age to survive, men's instinct says to fight, female instincts say to find male who has more,

--------------------

EDIT: I wish UA would be part EU (not considering all the EU problems now) for no valid reason. I'd just sleep better. But you have to be realist and not look at world through your ideology glasses. To me it seems that UA split is best possible outcome now.

me not, Ukr in EU = my kids unemployment, Poles would be the last to support Ukr in EU, it would be a day that many people would get depression due to vision of lifetime unemployment or going back from London , poverty makes us animals when we fight for survival (i say about society, not myself at the moment cause i have now not bad jobs , but if i had no job i would be madly in anger),

i was told yesterday storry, real storry, my friend working on farm in Germany told me, how they last week were working for one German and group of new Poles came to that farm and told this German "fire those guys, we can do the same for 50% you pay them, we need desperatly job, we look for job since year" , these guys were begging to fire others if there are no free places, cause they need to eat something and they want job so they can work for half of current workers work, if Ukrainians would come to my boss and say they gonna work for half what i work, than only fight would left to us for keeping our economical status,

people are always keeping their status as first goal, me too

Edited by vilas

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Well... i've seen some photos of Maidan's portestors or whatever and they had a red cross wiz a '14' on top and a F '88' below; 14= 14Th SS (volunteers) Galician Division. 88 Heil Hitler. I can't say in words how happy i'll be if i see this MFs tortured and then hanged from a rope on the charge of betrayal. Betrayal to all the good things that the humanity have to offer. I think, that if you're with those dirty MFs of the Maidan square, you should be executed by treason, to the human race (the only race that i know, by the F way). The actual "so called leader" of the revolution is a MF who's father was the head of the colaborators with the SS during the WWII on Ukraine, he... "had the honour..." of clean up of dirty MF jews the L'viv ghetto, so... if you're wiz the Maidan's MFs, you're wiz the nazis; that makes you an NME and a target. Someone wizout right to live. IMFHO... the russian forces should be allowed to enter on Ukraine to clean up by the force, the faszists MFs that has taken the control of Ukraine, and then, let the not nazi MFs people to take control of their soil, parlament and laws to bann (by the force, read: death penalty) those traitors (read: faszists) to the nation. A trash clean country is something nice. The EU (mainly those dirty germens) has made a side with the faszists and nazi like scum that has betrayed their country (a crime that should be punish with death IMFHO). Viktor Yanukovich was a MF!? yes man..!! there's no doubt about it; the nazis are better than him!? NO MAN!; there is not dount about it. Choose your side, im not wiz the nazis; im wiz every NME of the nazis/faszists. GUNG HO 4 THE RUSSIANS!!.

Edited by wipman

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So what the alternative ? What you propose ? Just left them alone. Let them kill each other (as they did in Kiev). Let hundred of thousands peoples die in civil war, millions to be displaced ... This will make you happy ?

There's absolutely nothing indicating that a civil war would occur. Russia invaded far before any clear signs of such a thing occurring were available. Just stop pretending that this is some humane help effort where your country is doing something good. It's simply an invasion of a sovereign nation, no less illegal than it was during WW2. The sooner you get around to accepting that, the better, because then one more Russian will have decided to face the fact that the Putin regime isn't a good thing to have around.

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to comm

you simply can't "sustaining integrity" if half of the population moving "left" and the other half moving "right". You separate them by Russian and Ukrainian. It is not correct. The are are more then 50 different nationality's in Ukraine. They divided by Russian speaking (mostly east) and non-Russian speaking (mostly west). Do i'm support wish of west Ukrainians joining EU.. yes i totally do. Do i'm support wish of west Ukrainians joining EU... and ignoring what other half of the country want ? No, i'm not. Do i'm support wish of east Ukrainians joining Russia.. yes i totally do. Do i'm support wish of east Ukrainians joining Russia... and ignoring what other half of the country want ? No, i don't.

I don't know where you get this 10-17% ... but eastern part of Ukraine much more dense. I will asume more accurate numbers will be 40 for west and 60 for east (last election numbers very close to this numbers at least)

meanwhile... Russian invasion in Ukraine in full force...

Half ? of what half are you talking about ? there is no Eastern half and Western half as you put it, stop this incredible nonsense. Some far eastern parts of Ukraine bordering to Russia maybe dense but according to 2001 demographic figure, all in all there are some 77.5% Ukrainians, 17.2% Russians and the rest your other *50* ethnical groups living in Ukraine. There are still Ukrainians living in the regions dominated by ethnicaly Russian people like in Crimea. There you still have some 25% Ukrainians, the rest not only Russians but also Crimean Tatars.

Here demographic tables including 2001. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

Sorry help me I don't get it. Showing pictures of random unidentified persons happily hanging around with Russian soldiers ( because you know, in no case this could be Russians. Possibility totaly ruled out ! ) is supposed to show me or anyone else with brain what exactly .... ?

So far Ukraine hasn't declared that it accepts giving up Crimea. So, yup, it's still an invasion and the Ukrainians see it as such. New leadership also insisted that it won't give up Crimea at any cost, calls for NATO support and warned Russia allready a billion times in the last hours to remove it's troops from the roads, buildings etc and put them into their barracks and then ship them back.

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Half ? of what half are you talking about ? there is no Eastern half and Western half as you put it, stop this incredible nonsense. Some far eastern parts of Ukraine bordering to Russia maybe dense but according to 2001 demographic figure, all in all there are some 77.5% Ukrainians, 17.2% Russians and the rest your other *50* ethnical groups living in Ukraine. There are still Ukrainians living in the regions dominated by ethnicaly Russian people like in Crimea. There you still have some 25% Ukrainians, the rest not only Russians but also Crimean Tatars.

Here demographic tables including 2001. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

Sorry help me I don't get it. Showing pictures of random unidentified persons happily hanging around with Russian soldiers ( because you know, in no case this could be Russians. Possibility totaly ruled out ! ) is supposed to show me or anyone else with brain what exactly .... ?

So far Ukraine hasn't declared that it accepts giving up Crimea. So, yup, it's still an invasion and the Ukrainians see it as such. New leadership also insisted that it won't give up Crimea at any cost, calls for NATO support and warned Russia allready a billion times in the last hours to remove it's troops from the roads, buildings etc and put them into their barracks and then ship them back.

Here we've anoe that goes on by the hand wiz the nazis. The russian troops are doing something that's (acordin' to the international laws) illegal; well, now what?; we leave Ukraine to the nazis...? or we leave Ukraine russians...? or even better better; we leave Ukraine to the F peafull citizens!?. Your solution seems to be to left Ukraine on the handsa of faszists. That makes you feel good!?, do ya thinka that the people there will live better under a faszist (the maidan movement) regime than under the far right/unfair hand/regime of Victor Yunokovich!?. I've a very high IQ, belive me... and it tells my that anything is better than be under a far right regime; keep in mind that i say this from spain (under a current far rigth regime). They should hang those NMEs of the country on the public squares, same as we (on spain) should do.

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one ? or two cause Russians stopped buying from them ? were they German businessmen ? French ? British ? cause last week they were so active when Polish pork was banned due to pigs disease, not saying about whole sportswear very active in olympics,

eh Vilas, you should know better of me than believing I'm somewhat pro-Western or German or whatever....

Vilas I didn't seek to offend you in any way, I fully understand you and from what I read in the last part of your last post I'm convinved you're thinking the same way. There is a reason I don't go into details and how dirty overall politics because I got tired of discussing that catastrophic topic. You basicaly see it the same way. But I am trying to explain why it would be not acceptable for Ukraine to seperate. What makes a nation strong ? - independence and stability. Will this annexation bring independence and stability to Ukraine ? No it won't because people will simply not accept a forced takeover, because they care as much as I and you do for our own countries and the Ukrainian goverment is far from willing to back off. Why should they ? it's still part of their nation, their home and btw if you come with historical claims, Crimean Tatars actualy have more rights to claim it than anyone else. Anyway, you seem to also understand the paradoxon I explained earlier. Russian actions in the the upcoming days might heavily backfire for them in the future. Would they want North Caucasus to seperate ? No they would intervene with all military force as they did in Chechnya to secure national stability and prevent seperatism spreading like a wildfire over the entire Federation. Why ? because it would divide, cripple, crumble the nation, weaken it and turn everything into chaos. That's why they chocked that Chechnya rebellion with all means ( eventough they needed some 20 years to do so ). Not to imagine what happens if other regions declared independence too ! in worst case entire Federation can collapse and some nuke silos fall into rogue hands. Everything that is actual concern of Kremlin. But while being concerned with their own country's integrity, they openly support seperatism in other countries for geopolitical goals, contradicting their own strict policy on seperatism. Any guy who calls for seperatism in Russia should quickly seek shelter in the mountains or he'll live a short life, yet they supported Abkhaz seperatism which resulted in a mass genocide against the ethnic majority of Georgians in Abkhazia in 1992. You say colonial nations. It's bullshits, it's not colonial nations, eastern nations of Europe are slaves and nothing more. That's why you need to be strong enough to survive as independent nation. That's why I fully oppose the efforts of my native land to join EU. If you come with ancient irrelevant historical claims etc as argument against territorial integrity, than you're not a patriot and should not fight for your own nation. Of what use are you then ? then you can't call yourself a Pole. Not only selfish motivation is behind all this. Politicians are also humans. Human psychology is very complex. The Ukrainian leadership is determined right now. Young leader insisted he won't give up his nation's integrity and I fully support that for obvious reasons of sustaining a strong Ukrainian ally. They were paralized in the beginning but now slowly pulling thesmelves togheter and saying Russians can't simply pull of such crazy shait. Who from both sides would benefit from even more deteriorated ethnical relations tell me ? - None, I can tell from our own example. It's a total catastrophy and Russians are even worsening the situation as 3rd party. One thing I strongly disagree with you, is the relevance of seperatism. The world is allready unstable enough and you would prefer to see it breaking up to ten thousand more pieces ? The Russians have no idea what they are igniting. Desperate moves, tacticaly total misstep. Putin's advisors are fools.

Edited by Comm_Yuri

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What would be nice is having some eastern Regions ukrainians posting here to tell us what's happening. A mail on the BBC News website :

Andrey in Donetsk, Ukraine emails: I live in Donetsk and I am Russian-speaking Ukrainian. From Friday Donetsk is overcrowded with outsiders whose job is to pretend to be us (locals). On Saturday they staged the protest meeting with Russian flags, and even announced a people's governor, right on the square - a person who no one had heard about before. I do not know what is happened in other eastern Ukrainian cities, but it looks like the same scenario as in Donetsk
.

That makes me think that Putin is maybe making a major mistake here : what's happening in Crimea will increase the national feeling of all Ukrainians, whatever they may think of Maidan.

Edited by ProfTournesol

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The footage says "small number of". They don't control anything, they are parading. But they are serving well Putin's propaganda, that's sure.

---------- Post added at 11:10 ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 ----------

"BBC Ukrainian editor Nina Kuryata in Kiev has received reports of Russian paratroopers threatening to storm Ukrainian army's marine battalion barracks in the village Perevalnoye, south of Simferopol. The battalion refused to hand in weapons and is preparing for assault."

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Small in numbers but most organized and armed. As I said earlier. But I agree with you about them serving well Putin's propaganda. As well as those idiots sitting at Rada now. Instead of trying to solve terrible economic problems (they admit that budget is empty, there's no money) they mess with the language question and chat about 'results of Soviet occupation of Ukraine'. Yeah, indeed monuments and symbols are way more important than empty pockets... Seems like they believe that a treasure is hidden under every Lenin monument and they do their best to find all of them. That's why I don't like maidanuts - they show total ignorance in economic and administration.

Meanwhile some sources claim that a number of Ukrainian AF detachments either leave their barracks or side with local self-defence forces.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/721649

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140302/188021252/Ukrainian-Troops-in-Crimea-Side-with-Pro-Russia-Forces.html

Edited by Spooky Lynx

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Instead of trying to solve terrible economic problems (they admit that budget is empty, there's no money) they mess with the language question and chat about 'results of Soviet occupation of Ukraine'. Yeah, indeed monuments and symbols are way more important than empty pockets... Seems like they believe that a treasure is hidden under every Lenin monument

not exactly:

- questions is - why budget is empty, who robbed money ? oligarchs, corrupted policians, how to get back money from thief Yanukovitch when Putin protects him ?

- how to fill budget ? take back what was stolen - now those money are in international banks, oligarchs, Yanukovitch administration families,

so they do not discuss meaningless things,

if for example i were robbed by mr. Abc, than you tell me "your pocket is empty, do not seek revenge, find job and earn money? " totally ridiculous, cause those money exist, they are in pocket of mr. Abc, just i must force this to take those yet-not-spent money to my pocket again,

the same with Ukraine, their money do exist, they were simply stolen by ex governing elite, not Ukraine should get back money from Yanukovitch and his administration accounts on foreign banks and Putin keeping Yanukovitch doesn't help at all , Russia now makes a mess, why ? Yanukovitch bought residence near Moscow for 52 milions of dollars, guess whose money these dollars were ? his salary is 3 000 dollars per month legally, so ... those were stolen money , about which you say - they have empty budget,

tresures are not hidden under Lenin monuments, treasures are hidden in many banks , their whole budget stolen in recent years, i hope not in Russian banks or am i wrong and they are in Russian banks ?

money that Yanukovitch family and cooperators have, probably would help to fix budget hole in some percents, to help victim is also to return back stolen goods

Edited by vilas

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That makes me think that Putin is maybe making a major mistake here : what's happening in Crimea will increase the national feeling of all Ukrainians, whatever they may think of Maidan.

Because Putin is an insane imbecile who still mentally lives in USSR and considers ukrainians to be same nation as russians.

Just look at all the decisions he forced his no less insane puppet Yanukovich to make:

The attack on a fully peaceful pro-EU protest on Nov 30th by riot police (Berkut) - in Russia that would be the end of it, people going home, some arrests. In Ukraine it ended up with Kyiv uprising, building barricades, taking nearby admin buildings.

Then all the terror tactics through attacks, kidnappings, arrests, tortures, murders committed by Berkut on orders from Yanukovich over the following 2 months on a still peaceful Maidan that was waving silly flashlights, singing songs like hippies - which inevitably led to Jan 19th events when people instead of getting tired and dispersing decided to finally retaliate. In Russia the same happens for all these years and it keeps any anti-Putin minded people in fear.

Then Jan 22nd came when cops started killing people with firearms (I knew Sergiy Nigoyan personally, a very good and kind person) - it only revitalized Maidan movement.

Then came Feb 18th and subsequently 20th when Berkut and snipers (incl. russian mercs) started mass murdering people armed with wooden bats with AKs and SVDs after a successful counter-attack of Maidan from the flank that was forcing cops to run.

Every action Putin took to terrorize the common folk only fueled the national self-identity and of course gave more powers to radical organizations since it's hard to stay all cheery and welcoming when some sadistic retard in a full body armor fires his rifle at you and you only have a wooden bat to defend yourself. It would work the opposite in Russia and it appears Putin is still blind to the fact that we are not the same.

So now he naturally went for a Plan B. Open aggression and invasion.

Edited by metalcraze

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The scenario is identical like that was in 17 of October 1939 when Soviets entered Poland. When country was in disarray caused by the German attack, the Soviets decided "to enter" the eastern lands of Poland in order "to protect" Russian people from harm. Despite having a defensive pack the West did nothing, French only limited to dropping propaganda leaflets along French-German border.

It wont stop in Crimea the provocations are already happening in Donetsk and Kharkov and tensions begin to rise. The worst scenario will be might happen and it's Matter of time till Russia will decide "to enter" eastern Ukraine and split the nation in two. In guess is that viceroy Yanukovich will be reinstated as a leader of puppet country called Eastern Ukraine :/

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