Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

I'm afraid that is not true.

The Ukrainian parliament ousted Yanukovich with practically 3/4s of the votes. Hence at least it would be 3/4s of what the Ukrainians voted.

If that wasn't enough in the last year elections a broad majority voted to keep with that policies.

If you want to call a territorial conflict created and fueled by a neighbor country a civil war, then it's fine with me. Tho I don't agree with the semantics.

NATO didn't wanted Ukraine to join its ranks before. Hence seems that "the Russian strategy" changed nothing.

Well, one thing changed, now certain neutral countries are studying join NATO, and more troops will be deployed in NATO countries.

So seems that the Russian strategy achieved the opposite of what it wanted.

I would like to suggest you to read the Right Sector goals and speeches. If you consider that neo-nazi authoritarian agenda a good cause, well... My politic point of view would be the exact opposite as yours then.

Regarding the right sector. Regardless of it's political views, it tryed to enforce some kind of law and order, while the government goals are basically mafia.

I hate nazis as much as the next guy, but order is somethong that I highly value.

Regarfing everything else, if you can't make a conection between NATO expansion and the conflict, there's nothing I can still do to make it more obvious.

Edited July 22, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[oxmox 73]

Ukraine joining NATO is something that a lot of Ukrainians want, including Poroshenko. But it's quite unlikely that the NATO members would accept Ukraine as today.

Maybe nowadays, but before the Maidan rather not and the government did vote for an exclusion of the Euro-Atlantic security and NATO. As far I remember and if iam not wrong, there were no majority in polls to join the EU, to sign the association agreement or to join NATO. The Maidan did not represent the whole Ukraine either.

In the late 2000´s even european politicians were against the pressure from the US about NATO approaches with regard to Russia.

Ah, well...chaos is seed already and lets hope for the best in the future.

Edited July 22, 2015 by oxmox

[vilas 473]

EU is made of the less corrupted countries in the world, and why on Earth would they want to corrupt Ukraine which is a poor country...that makes no sense, seems conspiracy theories are still very popular among pro Putin supporters.

rather risk of hostile takeover of industry and happenings similar to Poland in 1989-mid 1990s

Regarding the right sector. Regardless of it's political views, it tryed to enforce some kind of law and order, while the government goals are basically mafia.

I hate nazis as much as the next guy, but order is somethong that I highly value.

totally agree, i was saying the same, oligarchy = mafia, usual people need safety on the street , just courts, not LGTB issues or gender,

food, healthcare, safety comes always first, than other things when people are safe and rich

[mistyronin 1181]

Regarding the right sector. Regardless of it's political views, it tryed to enforce some kind of law and order, while the government goals are basically mafia.

I hate nazis as much as the next guy, but order is somethong that I highly value.

The problem of enforcing law and order in extreme, it's the price to pay. I personally rather have a bit of chaos than live in a police state.

Maybe nowadays, but before the Maidan rather not and the government did vote for an exclusion of the Euro-Atlantic security and NATO.

You are correct. It's nowadays that Ukraine Gov is looking to join NATO in order to get military assistance from its members.

But NATO hasn't been interested in having Ukraine as part of the alliance.

[John Kozak 14]

Regarding the right sector. Regardless of it's political views, it tryed to enforce some kind of law and order, while the government goals are basically mafia.

I hate nazis as much as the next guy, but order is somethong that I highly value.

So, you're essentially saying you can put up with Nazis as long as they establish order.

I have no more questions for you, thanks.

[aleksadragutin 9]

rather risk of hostile takeover of industry and happenings similar to Poland in 1989-mid 1990s

Same in serbia 2001 onwards.

[oxmox 73]

The problem of enforcing law and order in extreme, it's the price to pay. I personally rather have a bit of chaos than live in a police state.

First comes security and order and then everything else, thats what you hear from people suffering in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, xxx.....

I understand of course your statement and would agree from our point of view but people who are actually suffering tell something different.

[aleksadragutin 9]

So, you're essentially saying you can put up with Nazis as long as they establish order.

I have no more questions for you, thanks.

I have said no such thing, you are clearly trying to be hostile and twist my words.

[vilas 473]

The problem of enforcing law and order in extreme, it's the price to pay. I personally rather have a bit of chaos than live in a police state.

than i disagree, i could introduce you to mafia ruled areas but there is no longer 90s when on my streets cars were blown up or people were hanged on tree behind my window or rap-listners were hunting for every metalhead

but i prefere police state (as i also worked all my life in civil law enforcement/market surveilance) than goddamn gangs, mafia, lads drunk or after drugs roaming on the street

does anyone ever robbed you ?

cause i was robbed with knife by gypsies in 1993 which were regular thieves in neighborhood (now they left PL to west)

i was also robbed second time by group of lads in public transport in 1995

i had burglary, i had broken windows cause drunken lad thrown something into my window etc.

i seen several robberies, and i would rather live in Texas where i could shot such bastards without any consequences

my mother was robbed once too,

our friends car was robbed too etc. etc. etc.

back than only group we could trust as metalheads were skinheads, they were not commiting robberies unlike disco-fans or rap-fans in early 90s, they were beating with local lads , they were going to serve in police etc.

they were beating local junkies who were threatening people they have AIDS in needle and if you not give money they will cut you with infected needle - i have seen such things in my life when i was young,

probably noone ever tried to hit you with AIDS needle Misty,

when i was very short time in municipal police course it was biggest threat - junkies with needle with Aids and i resigned from municipal police because i was too afraid to be hit by junkie with AIDS and we couldn't simply shot them so i felt helpless

i hate chaos

Edited July 22, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

First comes security and order and then everything else, thats what you hear from people suffering in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, xxx......

I'd like to think that there's a huge array of grey shades (at least more than 50 :P) between an authoritarian police state and anarchy. :)

[John Kozak 14]

I have said no such thing, you are clearly trying to be hostile and twist my words.

You said they were fighting for a good cause, not me. Can you please explain what you meant, then?

[aleksadragutin 9]

I'd like to think that there's a huge array of grey shades (at least more than 50 :P) between an authoritarian police state and anarchy. :)

Well that's the problem. In Iraq you had Saddam, a firm hand. He was replaced by the slightly less firm US Army, and you already had little trouble. As soon as the US fell back, you had no firmness and all hell broke loose.

---------- Post added at 19:35 ---------- Previous post was at 19:34 ----------

You said they were fighting for a good cause, not me. Can you please explain what you meant, then?

Cleaning the streets of mafia?

[mistyronin 1181]

Well that's the problem. In Iraq you had Saddam, a firm hand. He was replaced by the slightly less firm US Army, and you already had little trouble. As soon as the US fell back, you had no firmness and all hell broke loose.

I'm afraid it's more complex than that (at least it's how I see it). I've had some long talks with my Iraqi friends about it, and it's really an interesting subject.

And what the US did in Iraq, a big mess. First they disbanded the order structures in Iraq (armed forces, police, etc.), they have also played with the ethnic differences in order to get a faster victory. That made that a lot of highly educated and trained people turned into the private armies of local oligarchs. Etc.

The invasion of Iraq was really absurd. Same as the plans to "tame" Afghanistan and turn it into a proper democracy in few years.

Ukraine is in another level, with some external support and inner will it could become a proper democracy in few years.

[oxmox 73]

But NATO hasn't been interested in having Ukraine as part of the alliance.

in the late 2000´s european politicians were against a NATO approach which was cuorted by the US government (Bush).

At the moment they could not even take the Ukraine into NATO because such a country needs to have stability and it is a requirement.

[John Kozak 14]

Cleaning the streets of mafia?

Legally elected government, you mean?

[aleksadragutin 9]

I'm afraid it's more complex than that (at least it's how I see it). I've had some long talks with my Iraqi friends about it, and it's really an interesting subject.

And what the US did in Iraq, a big mess. First they disbanded the order structures in Iraq (armed forces, police, etc.), they have also played with the ethnic differences in order to get a faster victory. That made that a lot of highly educated and trained people turned into the private armies of local oligarchs. Etc.

The invasion of Iraq was really absurd. Same as the plans to "tame" Afghanistan and turn it into a proper democracy in few years.

Ukraine is in another level, with some external support and inner will it could become a proper democracy in few years.

The problem is EU doesn't want a proper democracy. It wants an obedient one. Take Greece, they had a referendum, they voted no - EU does not approve, cipras removes anyone who voted no from the government and says yes - EU approves. There's the irony.

[mistyronin 1181]

The problem is EU doesn't want a proper democracy. It wants an obedient one. Take Greece, they had a referendum, they woted no - EU does not approve, cipras removes anyone who voted no from the government and says yes - EU approves. There's the irony.

I think we are mixing different things.

(that's more of the Greece thread tho) On Greece, the EU just said that if the Greek Gov wants the EU tax-payers money they will have to accept certain conditions. In fact it's the Syriza Gov that promoted a referendum in which they didn't respect the result.

In fact the EU & US would benefit more with a Ukraine with a proper democratic gov.

[oxmox 73]

Thousands of far-right supporters rally in Kiev calling for impeachment of President Poroshenko

Thousands of Ukrainian far-right supporters have rallied in the Kiev's Independence Square calling for a referendum that

would impeach the country's president Petro Poroshenko.

The group has frequently locked horns with Ukrainian authorities over government policy and is now calling for the resignation of ministers and for a referendum impeaching President Poroshenko.

Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh said at the rally that the group was calling for a vote of no confidence to go through in the Ukrainian parliament.

"Right Sector is initiating a nationwide Ukrainian referendum to answer several questions:

• First, a motion of no-confidence in government; second,
  
• 
  
• Second, we demand for the Russian war against Ukraine to finally be recognised as a war, and not as an antiterrorist operation.
  
• 
  
• Three, we demand a complete blockade of the occupied territories.
  
• 
  
• Four, we ask our people to support the legalisation of the Ukrainian volunteers corps and other volunteer units according to the law," Yarosh added.
  

• 
  

Right Sector played a prominent role in protests that toppled Moscow-backed President Viktor Yanukovich a year ago. Members of the group's volunteer corps have been battling alongside Ukrainian forces in the east of the country against pro-Russian separatists.

But the recent moves by Right Sector against President Poroshenko and his government could threaten to open up a new front in Kiev's battle to bring order to Ukraine. Close to bankruptcy and fearful of renewed conflict with pro-Russian separatists in the east, the government has been criticised for being slow to reform the country's legal system, which is still described as favouring the rich and powerful.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-thousands-far-right-supporters-rally-kiev-calling-impeachment-president-poroshenko-1512047

[vilas 473]

for me in short points it would look so far like this;

- corrupted oligarch Yanukovich replaced corrupted oligarch Timoshenko,

- people had enough of corruption, west wanted cheap labor and hostile takover of industry,

- people supported by western powers (maybe corporations, maybe EU commisions, maybe some intels) started EU-maidan, lets face that corporations do want cheap labor, another cheap labor country like Ukraine is very needed for them, like Poland was, because they need cheap labor to maximize profits and control their population "look, do not demand more, cause Pole/Slovak/Ukrainian will replace you",

- right wing wanted to finish with corruption and oligarchy and started Maidan and riots, Yanuk ousted,

- Russia invaded Crimea with "green men" saying that "there can be nazis if we not invade" (infact they made more of those nazis by their action, Russian invasion changed minds of Ukrainians and Poles, before invasion conflicted nations on historical issues , after invasion friendly and supportive, before invasion we were supporting Russia much more and much less Ukraine which we seen as UPA perspective, now we see them as victims too),

- another oligarch won elections,

- war on East started cause people from Eastern part do not want UA to be member of EU in any future (we must remember there is all Ukrainian industry and all Ukrainian gas/oil/coal), only right wing was ready to give blood for country (not for EU , but for UA), rest doesn't want to fight,

- oligarch in power used opportunity "let they bleed for my business",

- right wing found "damn, we bleeding for country, our gov fucks us in the ass, we give lives, our gov do business, when right wing will be dead than we back to business and sell all to EU corporations and keep oligarchy stronger than before",

- so right wing stood against another oligarchic government of Ukraine and now even mainstream left western media say about "nazis", while they were only volunteers who opposed Russian actions, of course apart from Putin forces there are also locals Russians who do not want to EU, so saying that all mess in eastern part is just Spetznaz from Russian Army is not true, because locals also fight, a lot of locals simply hate politicall correctness ideas which come with EU (i reming year ago i posted VICE interview with locals from East who said they simply do not want gay marriages and thats why they are rioting against Ukraine join EU)

for me it looks like this,

right wing was used to bleed for Ukraine (country) and now it seems that their blood was useless, cause in fact neither Russians in eastern part of Ukraine nor right wing part of Ukraine wants to EU ,

probably dozens of percent of Ukrainians want to EU cause they connect it with "they will give us money, we will be rich, they will build new schools, new hospitals, new roads, new infrastructure and we will move to any country to work and earn big money abroad",

noone likes to be used as a tool for other person profits

now it is a matter of time how it gonna end,

cause opposite to what Misty said

In fact the EU & US would benefit more with a Ukraine with a proper democratic gov.

i disagree

every fisherman knows: best fishing is in dirty water, cause fish do not see fisherman,

only corruption, oligarchy, mafia allow to make huge money in dirty way

strong democratic government (like western countries have themselves like France, UK, Germany) ALWAYS takes care about LOCAL business , ALWAYS, such thing in my country is impossible, police would start shooting to farmers destroying foreign cars, but in France it is okay,

and such democratic proper government is always hard partner in business cause they care about local profit,

only corrupted governments guarantee FOREIGN corporations profits

it doesn't matter Putin, or big western banks, any side which want to use other country as tool and cheap labor needs corruption there

what does French government when French farmers riots for prices ? allow them save local business, what happened yesterday ? French farmers destroyed cars with German meat, all is okay, in Poland police would shot and those farmers would be sentenced and paid compensations to German cars/farmers,

what German government does when German ship building factory need contracts ? than EU commission funds German plant, cut money from other plant in Poland,

who pushed 900 bln into Lidl, Kaufland supermarkets from EU budget ?

http://natemat.pl/147825,skad-sie-wzial-karp-za-zlotowke-lidl-i-kaufland-dostaly-900-mln-dolarow-kredytu-na-rozwoj-biznesu-w-europie-wschodniej

http://adevarul.ro/economie/afaceri/lidl-kaufland-scandal-s-a-aflat-primit-900-milioane-dolari-banca-mondiala-berd-extinderea-europa-est-inclusiv-romania-1_559675e3f5eaafab2c32469f/index.html

http://www.cijjournal.com/en/encompassme/12348/lidl-kaufland-secured-900m-in-public-funds-for-cee-expansion

http://niezalezna.pl/69164-wlasciciel-sieci-lidl-i-kaufland-dostal-900-mln-dol-gdzie-poszly-pieniadze-tajemnica

Lidl, Kaufland were DONATED from EU money to kill our shops in Eastern EU part , how can we say about honest competition when EU supermarkets not only not pay taxes but EU pushes them 900 bilions Euro so those supermarkets do DUMPING prices here ? some products in Lidle and Kaufland were CHEAPER than cost of production , so local producers bankrupted because dumping prices killed competition, local shops in my area bankrupted, i have now Carrefours, Lidl, Tesco, Jerhronimo Martens in my neigborhood,

in small towns Polish shops still exist, cause supermarkets are not see those towns as target zone, but i live in Warsaw, capital city of Poland, 3 milions people city with 160 m high skyscrappers, i am in target zone, my local shops bankrupted, i have 3 carrefours in radius of 2km, i have Lidl, Tesco, Hit, Auchan in radius of 3 km (indeed in small towns it is different , i do not claim that 100% of our market belong to Carrefour and Lidl),

in fact western corporations (people from west are not aware of it cause they do not believe their corporations can act like this because in their countries those corporations behave opposite) turned our countries to colony-like :

would you believe if i told you that in our supermarkets people were forced to wear pampers to work more and not go to toilet ? it is true , there were foreign markets which were doing such ugly things to labor here, people were wearing pampers to piss in pampers and work all time !!!

thats why they do not want democratic proper governments in countries which they see as "cheap labor, sell our products zone"

you know what PROPER democratic government without corruption would do ?

it would say to all Lidl, Carrefour "pay taxes or go to hell, no dumping prices, take local farmers products to sell in your shops"

now when i go to Lidl i have on shelf GERMAN farmers meat there , "pickok" ham from German meat from German farmers,

my girlfriend is farmer (16 ha of land, grain, pigs, dumpkins), she has given by EU limits on production, she cant produce more or she will get fine/ticket and noone will buy it cause EU prescribed limits, she had to cut cows and chickens cause she get limit that noone will buy cow plus ticket for having too much cows not registered,

her uncle is fisherman by the sea, he had to wreck boat cause EU told limit , EU pays him money for doing nothing (pension for wreckage of boat), utter economical nonsense "stop production, we will pay you benefit", and her uncle really does nothing, boat is wrecked, her aunt keeps pig "in case of war, so we have meat" too, German and French business is more and more rich,

but in shop i can buy Norwegian fish from Norway fishermen

thats why EU , US doesn't need such governments

who will buy US arms ?

France, Germany, UK, Belgium, Sweden, Switzerland -produce their own arms, rifles, why ? cause their have proper governments,

who had big production of arms and now doesn't ? Poland

we produced Mi-2 for all Warsaw Pact, we produced radars, we produced lots of rifles , T-72 for many countries, what now ?

all our aviation plants belong to Augusta Westland, Sikorsky, General Electric ,

ZWUT in which my uncle was of main engineers was producing telephones and telephone connectors for whole Warsaw Pact , than Siemens took it,

ELWRO and planned PC production plant sold by commies in 1989 with newest production line taken directly to Germany by Siemens,

noone abroad need proper and not corrupted government here, because you will not sell your products, if we had such governments, than you would be unemployed (unless you are nationalists cause you buy your products only, people from west love to use word "nationalism" as something negative towards east, but if you would face unemployment of your family, would you be buying my products if my products are cheaper? ), because we are cheaper and you would buy our products ;) we do not get 900 bilions Euro donation from EU commision like Lidl, Kaufland , we get taxes,

if there was proper governments in here than lots of you/your families would face unemployment cause we produce cheaper and if not destroyed, our industry would be competitive,

the same goes for Ukraine which is large producer still /yet,

Edited July 23, 2015 by vilas

[aleksadragutin 9]

I mostly agree with you vilas.

[vilas 473]

another details on privatisation, till 1993 there was sold:

70% metalurgy (several ironworks)

most of banks,

etc. a lot till end of 90s

it is estimated that ... 97% of Polish industry was sold during privatization and now about banks:

Polish banks were sold estimated for 2 bilion dollars

money stored by clients in those banks at that time were estimated to be ...

gues?

66 bilions of dollars

so banks were sold for 1/33 of money stored by clients

building Ironworks Warsaw (biggest ironwork in my city) costed 3 bilions dollars

guess price of selling ironworks plant producing a lot of steel ?

18.6 milions dollars, yes, milions,

area of ground under it was very huge, now those who bought this ironworks sell ground for developers to build buildings with lots of profits

and Ukraine should know about it and probably Eastern Ukraine rebels also know about it and Right Sector too , really noone in the "elites" of EU cares about oligarchs, corruption, noone and it is sad

it is told Poland get ca 60 bln € (i hope i not mistaken ) since we are in EU, question : can anyone estimate taxes to be paid during 20 years in 36 milion-people country ? can anyone estimate taxes to be paid or transferred profits of banking system in 36 milion country over period of 25 years full of consumers taking credits ? can anyone estimate cost of unemployment, future problems with pension system due to emigration due to lack of jobs (emigration cause lack of tax payers, lack of tax payers cuts income to social insurance system > pensions system in future)

how much money earned all supermarkets, banks, producers of goods to fill 36 milions clients market ?

Edited July 23, 2015 by vilas

[oxmox 73]

Gerard Depardieu 'blacklisted by Ukraine' for being a 'threat to national security' after pro-Russia comments

Gerard Depardieu has reportedly been blacklisted by Ukraine after being branded a “threat to national security†by the Government’s Ministry of Culture.

The decision to put the French actor’s name on the list of 500 foreign figures came after he made comments supporting Russia, according to the Russian state news agency ITAR-TASS.

Depardieu was made a Russian citizen in 2013 and is believed to have angered Ukrainian officials in 2014 when he gave a speech at a film festival in Latvia, where he said: “I love Russia and Ukraine, which is part of Russia.â€

TASS claims the 66-year-old joins the actor Steven Segal on the blacklist of people who “speak out in support of violating the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraineâ€.

Depardieu left France for Belgium in 2013 after new tax laws that would see the wealthy taxed at an increased rate of 75 per cent were announced. He later claimed his departure had been misinterpreted, telling Le Figaro the whole story was just a “big misunderstanding†and insisting he still loved France.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/gerard-depardieu-blacklisted-by-ukraine-for-being-a-threat-to-national-security-after-prorussia-comments-10409529.html

In fact the EU & US would benefit more with a Ukraine with a proper democratic gov.

i disagree

every fisherman knows: best fishing is in dirty water, cause fish do not see fisherman,

only corruption, oligarchy, mafia allow to make huge money in dirty way

What do you want, an authoritarian state instead ?

Edited July 23, 2015 by oxmox

[vilas 473]

What do you want, an authoritarian state instead ?

you misunderstood

Misty said that EU and US would benefit if there was proper government in Ukraine

i said that this is not true, cause they benefit only when there is corrupted government cause proper government would care about local business

because western banks, corporations always needed, supported, created corruptions in countries which they see as target area for selling their products

with proper government (which takes care about local, national business, profits) there would be no tax-free supermarkets, banks which buy local areas/industry/plants/buildings for penny

if post-commie countries had PROPER governments without corruption - EU and US would not benefit at all, they would face a cheaper competition, bigger unemployment, lack of profits, they would not sell here their products,

with proper governments without corruption German and French supermarkets - which now lead in my country - would not be here leading but small local shops because German farmer's ham will be always more expensive than Polish farmers' ham, Polish farmers' cheese would be cheaper than French always due to difference in production price - but Lidl, Kaufland get 900 bilion Euros from EU to take over our markets in post-commie countries and for some time there were dumping prices in shops, our farmers couldn't compete with EU-donated German ham, while Poles were fired from job (producing armored vehicles) we get from M113 medevac and Leopard tanks and US HMMVW and German MAN, Mercedes, IVECO trucks in army, our bank system was sold for few percent - this is all showing that EU and US WOULD NOT benefit at all if there were proper, not corrupted governments in post-commie countries, because we would be buying our products in our shops, we would be buying our cars on credit taken in our banks, we would be buying our washing machines, our freezers for homes build from our concrete,

our tanks, our helicopters, our vehicles would be in our army, our credits in banks would be cheaper etc. etc. etc.

Misty's sentence can be turned into:

In fact the EU & US would benefit MUCH LESS with a Ukraine with a proper democratic gov.

(no cheap labor working on building places, no cheap labor working on junk-job positions - currently Ukrainians which escape from war are basic personell in Carrefour shops in my city, Ukrainian workers build houses as construction workers here, all because of war in Ukraine, those people escape from Ukraine and work in my city in Carrefour for money that Poles say do not allow to live on proper level )

if you do not belive, come to my city, do shoping in Carrefour near to my house, you will see Ukrainians , who benefits ? not Ukraine, not Poland, but Carrefour from France having cheaper labor

it was foreign supermarket which told Polish workers to wear pampers and piss in pampers to not "waste" time to go to toilet during job,

if there was proper government - we would not be wasting money on organizing public transport bus lines (from taxes) to Lidl, Kaufalnd, Auchan, Carrefour shops - yes, my city organized public transport from taxes to allow people to go to supermarkets which aren't ours

of course it is EU and US which profits from corruption in here, why our police has HK G36 since decade ? why our police has Walther P99 ? etc. etc. why we do not produce cars but all is Opel Vivaro, Volkswagen T5, Ford Transit, Mercedes Sprinter etc.

Poland was producing cars, had many prototypes, i live in Praga-Warsaw district, 2 km from my house there WAS biggest car production plant in my country since 1950 till ca mid 2000s

i live in place near to FSO:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabryka_Samochod%C3%B3w_Osobowych

when i was kid i seen biiiiiiiiiiiiig plaza full of cars , now i see this:

http://images.photo.bikestats.eu/zdjecie,pelne,452869,20140104,to-juz-prawie-koniec-zespolu-szkol-fabryki-samochodow-osobowych-w-warszawie.jpg

there is just wall : https://www.google.pl/maps/@52.283495,21.009068,3a,75y,72.65h,84.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjwB-aR4jdhxHO90DZ4BucA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

3 km from my house was located PZO, plant producing binoculars, sights for weapons, microscopes

https://www.google.pl/maps/@52.246736,21.062035,3a,75y,338.5h,98.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHb1KkbS0sywDW7bDhM9A7g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

2 km was Pollena - one of biggest soap, shampoo producer, now i can buy in shop Fa soap and Swartzkopf or Loreal shampoo

https://www.google.pl/maps/@52.265811,21.040807,3a,75y,17.93h,89.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP3G_EqgmHDdPk6L1pJ4dsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

behind this wall there was biggest shampoo and soap factory

now only serious Polish-owned plant near to my house is CD-Projekt which made Witcher game (it is near to my location ) https://www.google.pl/maps/search/cd+projekt/@52.267576,21.023003,3a,90y,288.55h,89.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sX-aOapvWPSqdJ1AHHj4-HA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DX-aOapvWPSqdJ1AHHj4-HA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D100%26h%3D80%26yaw%3D71.309135%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

meanwhile :

http://finanse.wp.pl/kat,1033781,title,Polacy-nie-placa-czynszow-Zalegaja-400-milionow-zlotych,wid,17727254,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=115471

Poles have no money to pay for rent of their homes

meanwhile profits of banks (after taxation, majority foreign) nett in 2014 in my country 4 bilions Euro (year profit of all banks) while whole those banks were sold for 6 bilions euro as estimated last time (privatization, http://www.bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Polski-budzet-stracil-na-prywatyzacji-bankow-200-miliardow-1469454.html Polish economists estimate that budget losses due to corruption while selling 80% of Polish bank shares cost over 45 bilions Euro too low prices, 45 bilions of Euro are losses of our bank-system corrupted privatization to foreign hands, without counting profits )

transfer of profits from supermarkets and bank system estimated by economists from right wing is 125 bilions of Euro in period of decade !!!

bank economists (not right wing) say that in 2012 from Poand 15 bilions of Euro were transfered

http://www.bankier.pl/wiadomosc/W-zeszlym-roku-z-Polski-wytransferowano-70-mld-zl-2970285.html

http://www.tygodnikprzeglad.pl/jak-wyprowadza-sie-zyski-polski/

as a profits of western companies not paying taxes here or simply paying taxes but having profits here

so if bank economists, not right wing, estimate that in every year 15-17 bilions of Euro are transfered

than who profits like not EU, US ?

those 15 bilions Euro are later invested in Germany, UK, France, USA , Portugal etc.

such money are estimated by economists who are not far right, now if we get from Union 60 bilions in decade of being member of EU, giving 6 bilions per year,

17/6= almost 3 times difference

and western companies (banks, producers, shops, supermarkets) transfer flow like 15, 17 every year , than it means that only one who would lost with PROPER government is EU and US (companies, corporations, supermarkets, banks and in tiny part arms/vehicles dealers)

man, can you imagine what would be our life if 17 bilions of Euro would stay here?

36 milion of citizens, 472 Euro per capita more, it is 1 month salary more (like 13-th salary in year) , it is huuuuge tax injection to build a lot of infrastructure, to lower taxes, build schools, hospitals etc. it could allow to put down taxes here for 8%, to raise my salary for 8%

you probably had no idea how big amount of money is flowing due to corruption and not proper governments, but face the fact, those 17 bilions of euro would not meet your corporations in your location

even post-commies in parliament say about it ;)

http://www.wincentyelsner.pl/filmy/pytanie-o-skale-zyskow-wytransferowanych-poza-granice-polski

member of parliament from left wing post-commie party in parliament says about it too, because your banks, your cars producers, your supermarkets do not pay here taxes , they own local market so they are selling there their products

with proper government (look at Hungary and Victor Orban) there is now ... decreasing taxes for people , because after he taxes foreign business - he has so much money in budget that he decrease personal income tax to 15%,

in my country personal income tax for the poor is 19%, than next is 30%

proper government tax everyone EQUALLY , sometimes taxes foreign even more by not giving releases which PROPER government gives to local native small business or starting business,

corrupted government taxes only local business, not taxing worldwide corporations , this is what our post commie countries government do and what awaits UKRAINE if not yet

thats why noone from elites of EU, USA etc. do not want to fight with corruption in post commie countries, if only Poland, 1 country transfers 17 bln €, than add Romania, Czech, Slovakia, Lithuania, add future Ukraine, add future Bulgaria, Serbia etc.

there is no will to fight corruption, there is only will to fight with those who want to fight with corruption,

Edited July 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

because western banks, corporations always needed, supported, created corruptions in countries which they see as target area for selling their products

It's quite the opposite.

Lets say for example Harley-Davidson or Apple:

Where do you think they will have more buyers, in a Greece inside a deep crisis were people can't afford almost anything or in Sweden were a proper democracy allow proper salaries hence the average Joe can own a nice wooden house, an iPhone, a Harley and even a cottage near a lake?

Capitalism need that their target markets to be rich and free, so they spread a lot of their products and make a lot of benefits.

Authoritarian regimes tend to benefit protectionism and inner mafias. That's why Apple or Harley don't have much benefits in Russia or in Greece.

Where there are more Xbox? American cars? (for example Sweden is the place were the biggest meeting of American cars is set every year)

Or check where there are more Mc Donald's.

- - -

If what you said were to be true, most of the Western sells would be to African, South American and South Asian countries. Quite the contrary...

Edited July 24, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

not true, and manipulating again,

1) only corrupted gov. allow not pay taxes to some businesmen,

2) poor people need credits to buy things which rich people buy for cash (in poor countries people buy washing machine for bank loan for 2-3 years rates),

3) do not compare McDonald to banks or supermarkets cause IT IS MANIPULATION

noone is forced to buy Apple or MacFood, but if you want to buy washing mashine, you must take credit, if you want to eat you must buy food in local shop, noone need Harley motorbike, but every policeman need pistol, every soldier need rifle,

you use manipulation

supermarkets like Carrefour, Lidl, Kaufland, Auchan, Jehronimo Martens are not luxury products like Apple, Harley Davidsone,

everyone buys bread, ham, water, cola, but he buys it in SHOP that is available at cheapest price, when shop doesn't pay tax - it is cheaper and kills competition,

i do not eat junk food, i eat usual food, but i must buy this food somewhere, i must buy socks, pants, t-shirt, i MUST opposite to junk food , and when i go to buy t-shirt or ham i have to do it in Carrefour,

everyone buys washing machine to home, he does it for credit, i can live without Harley, but i cannot live without freezer, washing machine, vacum cleaner cause i must keep meat in cold, i must wash my pants,

who need bike, i do not need bike, but i need boots, washing machine, vacum cleaner, freezer , i need to buy washing powder, shampoo, soap, dish wash gel etc. and those corporations i meant, not luxury products who noone needs like bike, cause bike is not essential for live just like Apple products aren't

but buying washing machine i got to do it via bank loan , than washing my clothes i need to buy washing gel and buy it in supermarket,

i do not need big american car, but even smallest cheapest car which uses less fuel, how can i buy it without bank loan ? who produce this car ?

i need to seat my ass on chair, chair is from Ikea or Jysk, i do not need Harley Davidson, but i need chair, bed, carpet, wardrobe, shelves, where can i buy bed ? in Ikea or Jysk located kilometer away from flat

luxury products corporations are DIFFERENT and using them as example is MANIPULATION

people can live without x-box, they can play on usual PC, people do not need Harley Davidson if there is proper public transport or cheap car , people do not need iPhone when they can have cheaper other mobile phone,

but people need ANY car, ANY phone, ANY washing stuff ANY food ANY shop ANY bank ANY energy plant to glow ANY bulb bought in ANY electric shop, i can buy bulbs in Ikea, Jysk, Leroy-Merlin, Praktiker,

when i move by tram , tram need infrastructure and this infrastructure is from ... ADTranz GmbH, hospital need microscope - and they no longer can buy Polish "PZO" microscopes, now they can buy Carl Zeiss microscope,

the same army, police, hunters, previously had PZO scopes on rifles, now Carl Zeiss as PZO is no longer functioning ,

we had telephones from ZWUT , than Siemens bought it ... we do not need iPhone to call, home wire phone from ZWUT would be efficient , when i wash my head i do not have soap from Pollena, i have L'Oreal now

everyday life products, life-essential products corporations are only example - shops, washing stuff, banks, electric stuff, food, fuel, energy (electrical plant owner, power station owner, water facility ) , i need to have electricity in home, who owns electric power plant ? RWE from Germany, i buy water/ energy from German company (RWE has our wires https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RWE ), RWE keeps all wires in capitol of Poland, in 3 milion city i live i buy energy via German wires , in other cities they keep water facility and heating station (opposite to Africa we need heating in homes cause in winter we have -20 C )

i have to call using phone, who owns phones ? T-Mobile from Germany, Orange from France

If what you said were to be true, most of the Western sells would be to African, South American and South Asian countries. Quite the contrary...

manipulation

look at those countries , who own fuel sector ? i watched google street view in those countries

BP for example

who keep mobile phones ? i seen Orange in African strets,

what shops with everyday products i seen ? also wolrdwide known symbols

everyone drinks pepsi or cola - it is not issue,

issue is in which shop we buy it and what taxes does this shop pay comparing to local native businessmen

important is who makes energy (who owns local power plant)

important is what you can buy for credit in which bank

even in poorest countries people need energy, food, healtcare, cars, comunication, clothes, cleaning - they buy it in shops, they take credits, they use electricity, water, heating, someone keeps those sectors of cheapest everyday use products

Edited July 24, 2015 by vilas