Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

You are talking like: "Oh, that's ok. You shouldn't pay attention to that cause others do the same." Really? I think that every sane person should condemn every country government that approves such events. That is not normal.

Just for curiosity... What makes you reach that silly conclusion?

I only said that is not rare. Everything else is product of your imagination.

[vilas 473]

the reason is different and hard to understand for people in the west ;)

in our countries all mainstream parties are corrupted , one party cares about oligarchs, other party cares about foreign corporations, third party cares about Berlin/Washington/Moscow/any other name,

and only far right say about taking care about local nation/economy/business and only far right is least corrupted (cause they either believe in what they say or they had no opportunity)

west see such neo-nazi organizations as evil, but they have local support for very simple reason,

politicians and organizations who care about foreign banks - are not bringing to locals anything other than poverty, overwork, lack of dignity,

it is like modern colonialism, locals fight with colonialism like in the past, 100 years ago those who fought for interest of their nation vs interest of foreign kings were seen other way, because those people were aware of WW2 conections,

and it is tragic coincidence that only ones who doesn't want turn Ukrainians into cheap slaves with huge credits are their far fight neo nazis ,

because western nativity thinks that "beautiful" ideas of EU aren't followed by guys from Wallstreet and Bilderberg group dirty consequences,

in fast food commercials everyone who eat this dish is happy, fit, healthy,

you see commercial cause you sell it or you eat other dish than they are served,

but result of eating fast food is poor health, fat, problems with blood pressure , problems with bad mood, cancer

and this is sad but to prevent it , you (west) should eliminate all those Bilderberg/Wallstreet guys who make mess anywhere abroad your countries,

happiness of your bank employers families who have good social in their work = suffering of our debtors

untill you do not see it, you will be surprised that neo nazis exist

[aleksadragutin 9]

How Ukrainians imagine making true bonds of friendship with their neighbours when they openly glorify and celebrate war criminals, mass murderers mixed with elements of totalitarian regime? What's Poroshenko's opinion on supporting these ideas, celebrations and allowing them to continue in European Union since every European country banned and forbid by the law public display of any hitlerist symbols not to mention - performing celebrations connoted with World War 2 criminals?

I don't know any country in Europe that openly allows for celebrations linked with waffen SS, swastika national-socialist ideology. Do Belgians still glorify Rexist Movement? Do Norwegians still praise Vidkun Quisling? Do Slovakians praise Josef Tiso? What about Black Shirts and Benito Mussolini in Italy?

Poroshenko doesn't have such problems. On the day he meets with Polish president, he ratified a bill lifting butchers from UPA to heroes of Ukraine. Where is common sense in this country? Don't they understand that nazism, bloody nationalism is up against what EU and it's ideals (they want so bad) stand for. I really can't believe there is no fair ukrainian city mayor who can't say - fuck no, there will be no neonazi celebrations in this town.

Just pointing out that nazism is not nationalism, and nationalism is not necessarily a negative thing.

---------- Post added at 16:56 ---------- Previous post was at 16:53 ----------

That is not true. Freedom of expression exists and the authorities simply can´t prevent something like this. Same reason why you have neonazi marches in Germany from time to time (I witnessed one myself, never seen so many idiots in one place)

Yet Germany censures games (for example Wolfenstein).

[Tonci87 163]

Yet Germany censures games (for example Wolfenstein).

But what do they censor? Only the Swatika symbol wich is forbidden in Germany (by the way, movies are not censored since those are considered to be art, art must not be censored).

So if Neonazis do a parade here they are allowed to do that, however they are not allowed to display the Swastika.

The old Return to castle Wolfenstein was heavily censored because of the violence, that isn´t such a big problem today (guidelines have changed a lot). The new Wolfenstein isn´t censored at all apart from the Nazi flags and insignia.

[aleksadragutin 9]

But what do they censor? Only the Swatika symbol wich is forbidden in Germany (by the way, movies are not censored since those are considered to be art, art must not be censored).

So if Neonazis do a parade here they are allowed to do that, however they are not allowed to display the Swastika.

The old Return to castle Wolfenstein was heavily censored because of the violence, that isn´t such a big problem today (guidelines have changed a lot). The new Wolfenstein isn´t censored at all apart from the Nazi flags and insignia.

Exactly, they are forbiden to show the insignia, which is not the case with Ukraine. So in germany you do have the intervention of authorities.

[Tonci87 163]

Exactly, they are forbiden to show the insignia, which is not the case with Ukraine. So in germany you do have the intervention of authorities.

Well it doesn´t become less of a neonazi parade just because they are not allowed to show WW2 insignia. They already made up new insignia that are not banned (yet?) and march with German Empire flags (black-white-red). They also sing songs.

In all honesty I wouldn´t mind them waving the damn Swastika flag because it would be more honest (would make it easier to spot and avoid those idiots from far away) and the message of their demonstrations would still be the same.

[mistyronin 1181]

In all honesty I wouldn´t mind them waving the damn Swastika flag because it would be more honest (would make it easier to spot and avoid those idiots from far away) and the message of their demonstrations would still be the same.

Thing is that is all aesthetic.

You can't forbid ideas, you can hide them under the carpet yeah, but ideas as life always find their way.

I think it's good that people have the right to demonstrate why they are as long as they do it peacefully, so you can see who they are and its easy to keep track of them.

Fascism and Communism have brought dead and repression to million of people. The best think IMHO is educate people, show what regimes like the crazy criminal Stalin did, how people suffered, all the concentration camps and killing orders.

In that sense a lot of work has been done on Nazism, but there's still a lot of work to do with Communism and other extremism ideologies.

[Brawler 15]

One thing is sure tough, it will never be peace on earth...

Im not a pecimist, but if you look at the history, it has alway's been a war. It's just how humans are, we even fight against our own people at school, at work in a bar etc. Humans are so diffrent in terms of idealogy and toughts, and every human on this planet, see the world with diffrent eyes.

In a perfect world we should fight our war with use of our mouth and brain, having discussions without start shooting eachother!

[gammadust 12]

It is hard to argue against that pessimist view, i stumble into my naivety far too many times for my liking:

That OSCE element depicted is likely void of its humanity in the manner that it deals with the despair of that people, the manner how it qualifies as "traumatizing" that which is the exact opposite being encouraged by that child's relatives: to denounce her ordeal to those which are supposed to collect it by their own stated mission, precisely not-repressing as trauma the charged experience. That OSCE element should be removed from that mission for blatant failure on its job.

If indeed, being at war was the basic and only nature of mankind, there would be no humanity left. It would have consumed itself. The fact that humanity still roams this earth can only prove that it is still actually wining against all those wars and machines of destruction. It is its heartbreaking sacrifices that makes us pessimists, as in a self-defence mechanism to prevent it from getting into harm's way in its future. Being aware and not ignoring those sacrifices constitutes its function as an immune system. It is nevertheless hard to bare all that conscience individually.

Yes, humanity was pretending to be healty for a while now, the symptoms of the sickeness are difficult to hide now. If history is any indicator it might get worse before it gets better, but better it shall become.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Thing is that is all aesthetic.

You can't forbid ideas, you can hide them under the carpet yeah, but ideas as life always find their way.

I think it's good that people have the right to demonstrate why they are as long as they do it peacefully, so you can see who they are and its easy to keep track of them.

Fascism and Communism have brought dead and repression to million of people. The best think IMHO is educate people, show what regimes like the crazy criminal Stalin did, how people suffered, all the concentration camps and killing orders.

In that sense a lot of work has been done on Nazism, but there's still a lot of work to do with Communism and other extremism ideologies.

Communism isn't really an extremist ideology. The thing you refer to as communism (Stalinist regime) is not realy communism. Communism is based on public property and social programs which I support, but the communism as it was in the USSR is just power being usurped by someone else. They did however have a good reconstruction plan for the industry.

---------- Post added at 07:03 ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 ----------

Well it doesn´t become less of a neonazi parade just because they are not allowed to show WW2 insignia. They already made up new insignia that are not banned (yet?) and march with German Empire flags (black-white-red). They also sing songs.

In all honesty I wouldn´t mind them waving the damn Swastika flag because it would be more honest (would make it easier to spot and avoid those idiots from far away) and the message of their demonstrations would still be the same.

True, but the state needs to condemn nazism. By not at least condemning them, Ukraine is effectively showing that they support such actions. Plus the promotion of UPA to heroes...

[Brawler 15]

Communism isn't really an extremist ideology. The thing you refer to as communism (Stalinist regime) is not realy communism. Communism is based on public property and social programs which I support, but the communism as it was in the USSR is just power being usurped by someone else. They did however have a good reconstruction plan for the industry.

Yes communism isn't bad idealogy, but the problems is that communism allows a few men to lead one nation, and they can lead with their own idealogy opinions etc, and the people of that nation have really no way to fight againts. In democracy, we do not having this issue, because the people actually is the leaders, because we desides who shall be our leaders! and that is the true power of democracy! It's actually almost impossible in democracy to be succeded with extreme idelogy, it will just be stopped right away by the people.

A perfect example of this is acually Ukraine, pro Russians have most certanly wantet to fight againts the goverment for years. but they could'nt because the people is too strong. When the goverment suggest that Russia should be removed as a second language and Russia seized Chrimea, they got motivated to start the fight against the goverment.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Tom_89

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yes communism isn't bad idealogy, but the problems is that communism allows a few men to lead one nation, and they can lead with their own idealogy opinions etc, and the people of that nation have really no way to fight againts. In democracy, we do not having this issue, because the people actually is the leaders, because we desides who shall be our leaders! and that is the true power of democracy! It's actually almost impossible in democracy to be succeded with extreme idelogy, it will just be stopped right away by the people.

A perfect example of this is acually Ukraine, pro Russians have most certanly wantet to fight againts the goverment for years. but they could'nt because the people is too strong. When the goverment suggest that Russia should be removed as a second language and Russia seized Chrimea, they got motivated to start the fight against the goverment.

Communism doesn't have to be a totalitarian system, you could perhaps have democratic communism. But do people have a way to stop their government in a democracy? Any form of government can be replaced only through violence, because no one will simply give power peacefully. Weather the system is democratic or authoritarian, those in power will cling to it for as long as they can. Two examples. United States have democratic elections where they choose which senators are going to take bribes and force the will of the rich. So the real power is not with the senators (that means people don't have it either), the real power is with the rich and the corporations who lobby (so an oligarchy). It's even worse in Ukraine now, after they fought so hard for "democracy". Same with Serbia. Democracy is an illusion, capitalism rules.

Edited June 20, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[Brawler 15]

Communism doesn't have to be a totalitarian system, you could perhaps have democratic communism. But do people have a way to stop their government in a democracy? Any form of government can be replaced only through violence, because no one will simply give power peacefully. Weather the system is democratic or authoritarian, those in power will cling to it for as long as they can. Two examples. United States have democratic elections where they choose which senators are going to take bribes and force the will of the rich. So the real power is not with the senators (that means people don't have it either), the real power is with the rich and the corporations who lobby (so an oligarchy). It's even worse in Ukraine now, they fought so hard for "democracy". Same with Serbia. Democracy is an illusion, capitalism rules.

By simply going to election! Vote for the people who will lead the nation! Demontrate in the cities, their is alot of things people can do. In my country we have demonstrated a lot for thing that is not right, and we usually wins!

Two years ago, our goverment decreased the economic support to our farmers, farmers demontrated by driving tractors in to the capital, and sprayed cow shit and milk all over place, and they eventually got back their economy support. This is just one of many examples how powerfull the people can be in democracy!

Edited June 20, 2015 by Tom_89

[aleksadragutin 9]

By simply going to election! Vote for the people who will lead the nation! Demontrate in the cities, their is alot of things people can do. In my country we have demonstrated a lot for thing that is not right, and we usually wins!

Two years ago, our goverment decreased the economic support to our farmers, farmers demontrated by driving tractors in to the capital, and sprayed cow shit and milk all over place, and they eventually got back their economy support. This is just one of many examples how powerfull the people can be in democracy!

Just out of curiosity, what country is that?

[Brawler 15]

Just out of curiosity, what country is that?

Norway

[vilas 473]

Norway

thats why you do not understand,

in scandinavia you have 100 times bigger transparency of gov. , 10 time less corruption, and if in your country politician do crime - he go to dismiss (resign)

if in our country politician commit crime, he change the law so it is no longer crime and if post-commie country citizens demonstrate, they send riot police and never inform in media about such demonstration

you live in scandinavian country with very low level of corruption

now do you understand such situation:

- in 2005 my father died, he lived alone, cause parents divorced in 1981,but i am only son, so only heir, fahter body was found very rotten so reason of death was never found, he was buried with uknown reason of death,

- his neigbor called me by phone that 2 guys are inside his flat,

- i called police, neigbor called police

- police found 2 guys inside, they were unknown for me, as relative of my father, they were burglars,

- flat after my father was robbed, there were stolen precious memorabilia after my grandfather which was high ranked army officer and had some precious WW2 memorabilia,

- after month i get from police letter about refusal of investigation,

- i applied claim, month later prosecutor office refused to make investigation

- i put claim to court, court refused investigation,

- few years later i found ... memorabilia after my grandfather in one museum, i notified police about things stolen from my fathers flat which should belong to me,

- police one again , prosecutor and court - refused investigation

- i sued museum

- museum said they bought it from mr. X

- mr . X is lawyer and son of ex commie intel officer, i sued mr . X

- mr X said "i bought it on street, i do not know from whom, i do not remember"

- mr X is "innocent" i get bill to pay for his visit in court as his witness costs - because he travelled from other city, i had to pay 550 PLN (while average Pole earns 2000, 2500 per month), so i was robbed, noone is in jail, i get bill,

now i can see memorabilia after my grandfather in one museum behind thick armored glass , not in my hands,

and law says that after few years there is legal expiration/non-claim (forgive my lack of legal English terms), so i cannot do anything according to our law:

http://thelawdictionary.org/non-claim/

and it is POLAND not UKRAINE,

now imagine that Ukraine is 5 times worse, imagine what happens in Ukraine

you cannot even imagine level of corruption that we have here in post-commie countries left by soviet regime servants here

btw guy who was active in this robbery emigrated and now he lives in your country

Two years ago, our goverment decreased the economic support to our farmers, farmers demontrated by driving tractors in to the capital, and sprayed cow shit and milk all over place, and they eventually got back their economy support. This is just one of many examples how powerfull the people can be in democracy!

in my country after such actions police arrested everyone, mainstream media would call those farmers "bandits, fascist" if they ever told about such action,

most probably mainstream media would ignore it, only internet right wing media would tell about such thing,

farmers would get fines from court and it would close case

in my country we had such protests and it always ended the same way - mainstream media if told, than called protesters bandit, cause for mainstream media there are more imprtant topic - one actor married other actress,

Edited June 20, 2015 by vilas

[oxmox 73]

There will be a hard time ahead for the Ukrainians...

Saakashvili former Georgian President, in the meanwhile Ukrainian Government advisor and Governeur of Oblast Odessa.

Saakashvili: 20 Years Needed to Reach Social Level of Yanukovych’s Ukraine

We know not what is good until we have lost it: Mikheil Saakashvili, who actively supported the Euromaidan

turmoil that toppled President Viktor Yanukovych, now asserted that it will take 20 years to reach the social level of Yanukovych's Ukraine.

"Now Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe. If the collapse of the economy suddenly stops, and Ukraine develops by four percent annually, we will reach the level of 2013 in 20 years," the former Georgian president said.

"Only in 20 years will we return to the figures of Yanukovych's Ukraine," he concluded.

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150614/1023359373.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ttTFEBBUK8

Edited June 20, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

True, but the state needs to condemn nazism. By not at least condemning them, Ukraine is effectively showing that they support such actions. Plus the promotion of UPA to heroes...

I fully agree. Ukraine is in a difficult situation right now. I´m sure that many politicians would love to condemn the right wing, but because of the situation in east Ukraine they can´t. They need those men and their fighting power. The Azov battalion is infamous for beeing full of nazis, but it´s also possibly the most effective combat formation Ukraine has right now. A very difficult situation.

[vilas 473]

I fully agree. Ukraine is in a difficult situation right now. I´m sure that many politicians would love to condemn the right wing, but because of the situation in east Ukraine they can´t. They need those men and their fighting power. The Azov battalion is infamous for beeing full of nazis, but it´s also possibly the most effective combat formation Ukraine has right now. A very difficult situation.

not only they need them but as i said many times, in post-commie countries only not corrupted are far-right, so people believe them not because of nazi ideology but because they are least corrupted,

if one party stolen 10000 ,second party stolen 10000, third party stolen 10 , whom you vote ? cause i vote third party, no matter that their ideology is not always like i want, i simply vote for those who steal least, i always vote for least evil and against bigger evil

[oxmox 73]

They did need them aswell to overthrow the government and were the most effective thugs in the street battles ....:party:

The ordinary citizen is taken for a ride and has to face the consequences of the events:

the Maidan which didnt represent the whole populations opinion and partially with a naive outlook, foreign political influence & meddling by the US and Russia in the past and up to the Maidan events, the anti-terror operation and fight with seperatists, the shelling of civilians and collateral damages which did even more devide the people of the country, the meddling of Russia in the conflict and reactions inclusive the Crimea, the desastrous collapse of the economic, IWF credits and its foreign influence/meddling and burden of the people with harsh terms, very slow or almost none changes of the Oligarch system and corruption, an almost new kind of cold war grows and the EU suffers by sanctions aswell, the very dark prospects of the country for the future and the fact that it will take decades to rebuild what was destroyed in months.

@Vilas, really sad story..sorry to hear this.

Edited June 20, 2015 by oxmox

[Brawler 15]

To Vilas: i am very sorry to read your story this is not how things shold be, and you are right, i don't understand. But please do understand that it is not just glory in our country either, our law is missing a lot too, just read this:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks. This guy killed over 70 people. And he got 21 years in prison, he get payed and free education while he is in jail. He may never get out of prison, but if he behave nice and not seen as a "danger" to the society, he will be out in 21 years. So justice isn't always beeing forfilled, even in Norway. It is of offcourse a lot worse in Poland, Ukraine and in general eastern Europe, but my point is that nasty things also happends in countries who are assumed to be a nice and peacefull place to live.

I realy hope the situasion in Ukraine will have an end soon, and hopefully with least casualties as possible. I just hope that Nato will stay out of this conflict, if they do the situasjon in Ukraine will be a disaster, and may result in a new world war.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Tom_89

[mistyronin 1181]

Communism isn't really an extremist ideology. The thing you refer to as communism (Stalinist regime) is not realy communism. Communism is based on public property and social programs which I support, but the communism as it was in the USSR is just power being usurped by someone else. They did however have a good reconstruction plan for the industry.

Communism by default is a really extremist and violent ideology (not to confuse with democratic Socialism)

It's first premise is a violent revolution and then install a dictatorship. You just need to read the Marx's Communist Manifest.

It's goal is remove each people's thinking and individuality, removing a lot of the most basic human rights (like freedom of religion, speech, movement, etc.), basically it turns people into robots at the service of a few.

Not much different of Nazism BTW, remember that NS-DAP meant the National Socialist Party of the German Workers; it was a party made by the lower-middle class (you just have to check Hitler who was a poor pal that was a fiasco as a painter that sold stuff door by door).

The main difference between Communism and Nazism is that the later focus on a differentiation by genetics for repression and the first had no limits for repression.

No matter if Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot or others, they were all bloody criminals that provoked millions of deads. By far Communism killed more people than any other political ideology.

Edited June 20, 2015 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

Poroshenko: stripping Yanukovych of presidential title unconstitutional (Ukrainian Interfax Press Agency; June 20th)

Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko has sent to the Constitutional Court of Ukraine a query concerning

the constitutionality of the law of Ukraine on depriving Viktor Yanukovych of the title of the president of Ukraine, the court's press service reported.

"Since the law, whose constitutionality is challenged, does not have a regulative nature, having passed it, the Verkhovna Rada acted contrary to the norms of the Constitution of Ukraine, which means that this contradicts Part 2 of Article 19 of the Constitution, which obliges the parliament to act within the powers and in the manner provided by the Constitution of Ukraine. In this connection, I request recognizing the law of Ukraine on depriving Viktor Yanukovych of the title of the president of Ukraine dated February 4, 2015, as such which does not meet the Constitution of Ukraine, that is unconstitutional," the president's query reads.

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/273340.html

Confusing U(kraine)-Turn:

Yanukovych Ousting Was Illegitimate - Poroshenko (Sputniknews)

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko appealed to the country’s constitutional court, asking the court

to recognize the ousting of former President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 as illegitimate.

"I ask the court to acknowledge that the law ‘on the removal of the presidential title from Viktor Yanukovych' as unconstitutional," Poroshenko said in a court statement published on the website of the Ukrainian constitutional court.

The current Ukrainian president said the law violates the constitution, according to which the President of Ukraine is protected by law and his title remains with him forever. He also added that by enacting the law in February of 2014, the parliament of Ukraine undermined the constitution.

As the current head of Ukraine, who became the president after the illegal coup, Poroshenko's statement seems strange at best. By admitting that the overthrow of Yanukovych was illegal and stressing that the President of Ukraine should be forever protected by the country's law, Poroshenko might be insinuating that his own presidency is put in jeopardy.

Alexei Pushkov, the head of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Lower House of Russia's parliament, commented on Poroshenko's bizarre revelation.

"Here we go, Poroshenko acknowledged the unconstitutional nature of Yanukovych's removal from power. The EU and PACE both denied it. Now it's recognized," Pushkov wrote on his Twitter account.

http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150620/1023639521.html

Edited June 20, 2015 by oxmox

[x3kj 1247]

last time i said it was unconstitutional in this thread some people jumped at me and said i got it all completely wrong... :j:

[mistyronin 1181]

last time i said it was unconstitutional in this thread some people jumped at me and said i got it all completely wrong... :j:

So?

Poroshenko just sent a query, in simple English "He has ask if the law is legal or no", the court has yet to answer.

And you probably wonder: "Why on Earth would Poroshenko ask to the Ukrainian Constitutional Court that?"

Once the Ukrainian Constitutional Court rule on that, there would be no further appeal possible, hence it would be settled down / closed for ever.

That for one side, for the other it gains favor among the Russian audience.

He is being smart.