Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

But you know, during the time Russia did notice that radical Islamists got funded with money and fighters from

all over the world inclusive Al Qaeda (Saudi Arabia & Co ?), which did plan to create a radical Islamic Theocracy based on Saudi Wahabism, it was waved aside by US/western countries.

Until the 11th september 2001 did happen and the bombings and war in Afghanistan did rampage, expiriencing their own war against Islamists.

I don't really understand your point, before the 9 / 11th there had been numerous attacks against US & Western interests ( Somalia's Yemen hotel bombings, Embassies in Africa, USS Cole attack ).

Bill Clinton even ordered attacks in Afghanistan after the Al Qaeda attacks against the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania:

( CNN, 1998 ) U.S. missiles pound targets in Afghanistan, Sudan

It was already well known at that time that radical Islamist were funded by different groups in Arabia and others.

[oxmox 73]

I don't really understand your point, before the 9 / 11th there had been numerous attacks against US & Western interests ( Somalia's Yemen hotel bombings, Embassies in Africa, USS Cole attack ).

Bill Clinton even ordered attacks in Afghanistan after the Al Qaeda attacks against the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania:

( CNN, 1998 ) U.S. missiles pound targets in Afghanistan, Sudan

It was already well known at that time that radical Islamist were funded by different groups in Arabia and others.

Which part you dont understand ?

[mistyronin 1181]

Which part you dont understand ?

If you understand major military operations against Al Qaeda camps before 9/11, as "waving away" the Al Qaeda threat :j:

[oxmox 73]

If you understand major military operations against Al Qaeda camps before 9/11, as "waving away" the Al Qaeda threat :j:

Yeah of course not when it comes to US politics and their own view and reactions to it :j:...but I did talk about Russia and the political reactions abroad after the Jelzin Era did end with its destructive economical politics but welcomed by the US, chechnya was a legacy for Putin. It was a war and not just some operations, and the second chechnya war did start almost in the same time like the "war on terror".

Edited February 23, 2015 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

Let's grab some popcorn :

(Vice News) Russian Newspaper to Release Document That Allegedly Links Kremlin to Ukraine Invasion

The editor of an independent investigative Russian newspaper claims to possess a top secret document that proves the Kremlin planned an invasion of Ukraine last year.

Dmitry Muratov, the editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta, told a local radio station he has a strategy paper that purportedly shows Moscow began plotting an incursion in Ukraine sometime between February 4 and 15, 2014, when the document was allegedly drafted. The dates coincide with the protest-filled weeks leading up to the collapse of the Ukrainian government and the ouster of former President Viktor Yanukovych, a Russian ally, on February 22.

:popcornsmilie:

[astral4eg 10]

Let's grab some popcorn :

(Vice News) Russian Newspaper to Release Document That Allegedly Links Kremlin to Ukraine Invasion

:popcornsmilie:

What for invade Russia to Ukraine?

Ukrainian currency (hryvnia) depreciated by about ~400%

Industry completely destroyed

40 million beggar and hungry population

The coup d'état succeeded

Edited February 24, 2015 by astral4eg

[mistyronin 1181]

What for invade Russia to Ukraine?

Ukrainian currency (hryvnia) depreciated by about ~400%

Industry completely destroyed

40 million beggar and hungry population

That situation would only last for a few years. Russia would get the resources and also keep's Putin reputation of new Czar. The same that lead him to annex parts of Georgia and re-annex Chechnya.

In fact your same question could have also been asked when Russia did most of its Imperial conquests, be it in the Czarist times or in the Soviet ones.

[oxmox 73]

Let's grab some popcorn :

(Vice News) Russian Newspaper to Release Document That Allegedly Links Kremlin to Ukraine Invasion

:popcornsmilie:

Someone would be probably surprised if at least no short term plan was eleborated around the time of the Maidan events, since Russia was under own geopolitical pressure. If such claims are true, it wont change the situation or the solution to the conflict but adds more light to the role of Russia. Lets see what kind of content the newspaper will release, similar reports were already released in early 2014 by the Kiev Post and train thoughts about Crimea as the next flashpoint did appear already in the early 90ies. The geopolitics of Russia and their sphere of interest inclusive the quarrel between the Ukraine and Russia about Sevastopol is a topic since the fall of the Sovjetunion, its all a soap opera when our media and politicians suddenly react emotionally and surprised.

But so far Iam with you, its popcorn until we know more and the papers get released.

re-annex Chechnya.

The only annexion I heard about did happen in the caucasian war in the 19th century, but not about the Chechnya war started by Jelzin and continued by Putin. Jelzin and Gorbatschov did not recognize their independance move, thats right.

Ukraine’s currency slumps as fraying peace deal raises economic fears

Ukraine’s currency touched record lows Monday as continued violence in the rebel-held east fueled pessimism about the country’s economic future.

Amid the violence, the Ukrainian currency, the hryvnia, fell 10 percent against the U.S. dollar Monday before recovering its losses — yet another sign of the nation’s flat-lining economy. The combination of military setbacks and fiscal woes is increasingly threatening the leadership in Kiev, the capital.

Ukraine’s currency has dropped 42 percent this month and is down 69 percent in the year since President Viktor Yanukovych fled office after months of pro-European street demonstrations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukrainian-military-says-it-wont-pull-back-until-rebels-attack-stop/2015/02/23/32c1f9e4-bb3b-11e4-b274-e5209a3bc9a9_story.html

Edited February 24, 2015 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

(BBC News) Ukraine conflict: UK to help train Ukraine army - Cameron

The United States has already said it is planning to send troops to train three Ukrainian battalions.

Mr Cameron told a House of Commons committee that up to 75 British soldiers divided into four teams would go to an area well away from the conflict zone, to provide medical, logistics, intelligence and infantry skills.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

they need training for those US/UK guns they just bought from the UAE, so porky can sacrifice even more of his ppl to show he's a real leader to the west, one that dont give a shit about ppl only dollars!

[sudayev 27]

Ukraine Signs Defense Deal With UAE

http://www.defensenews.com/story/breaking-news/2015/02/24/ukraine-signs-defense-deal-with-uae/23926101/

Word is about more advanced systems, targeting and recon equipment. Business is business.

[oxmox 73]

Mariupol - the next front in the civil war? | Channel 4 News

The skyline in the east of town, industrial complexes providing jobs for 60000 people; inside the city people keeping up the appareance of a normal life but underneath there is anxiety. Crossing the line people burning an effigy, the elected President of the Ukraine. Inside Mariupol Ukrainian defence worker talk about Putins big plan to take all of Europe.

Hromatske TV

Injured Doctor Survived Three Days In Freezing Cold On East Ukraine Frontline

Army medic Vadym Svyrydenko was injured twice, abandoned in a field and captured before reaching a hospital. Vadym initially received shrapnel wounds from tank shells near Debaltseve. Along with others who were injured, he was evacuated from the battlefield. On their way to the hospital the column carrying the injured drove into a trap and was completely destroyed by mines.

Edited February 25, 2015 by oxmox

[.kju 3239]

Can anyone understanding Polish and able to read German to confirm these subtitles to be correct in general please.

Prof. Zbigniew Brzezinski about Ukraine, Crimea, Russia and China (Polish with German subtitles)

Zbigniew Brzezinski (summer 2014) talks about the Ukraine (War), Crimea, Russia and China.

The US influence in Ukraine is illustrated and "the plan" of the United States to play China off against Russia.

Also discusses the price development of oil and the economic isolation of Russia.

[sudayev 27]

Zbigniew Brzezinski (summer 2014) talks about the Ukraine (War)' date=' Crimea, Russia and China.

The US influence in Ukraine is illustrated and "the plan" of the United States to play China off against Russia.

Also discusses the price development of oil and the economic isolation of Russia.[/quote']

It's misleading. In-built German subtitles seems legit, I'm not a good German speaker though I can understand something from reading.

Cutting this short from Polish...

He says about the Crimean conflict and why did Putin decided to send unlawful combatants and masquerade and generally hiding their actions and intentuions behind the proxy. According to him Russia was afraid of launching an open conflict due to outright action of the west, tat is what the masqurade was all about. Otherwise it would lead to more severe sanctions back than or even sending deadly equipment to Ukraine in case of open fight, that is what Putin wanted to avoid. Ukrainians didn't fire a single bullet at them there so was not reason to send offensive arms to Ukraine. Eventually the Crime will drag the Russia down and Putin might try to mitigate by evoking a larger crisis.

Brzezinski doesn't say anything about playing China against Russia. Word about China is in terms of Chinese conference about Asian security where Putin was invited (The US were not). He also mentions difficult Chinese-Russian relations and how much the Chinese territory have shrunk in favor of Russia, of course it's about Siberia and it's natural riches, According to Brzezinski Chinese have good memory and "Sibierian issues" seem to resurface recently. China also has more powerful economy and military budged three to four times higher than Russia and the Chinese will take of their own things first - rather than helping Putin to take Crimea and rest of the Ukraine. it also makes China the first to speak about Asian issues in the region. He also says that Ukraine need to take fate in their own hands, get rid of corruption, boost their morale and care more about the political culture and self-responsibility - otherwise they will fall and collapse.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Sudayev

[Tonci87 163]

Russia refuses to release captured Ukrainian pilot

She was captured by the rebels and handed over to the russians. As Russia likes to pretend that they are not part of the war they had to make up a bullshit reason for keeping her.

[Rydygier 1302]

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/rosja-wysylanie-instruktorow-na-ukraine-grozi-eskalacja-konfliktu/t646k

Russia's ambassador to NATO Alexander Grushko warned that some countries sending military instructors to Ukraine will not support the achievement of agreements Minsk and lead to a worsening of the situation.

Grushko said this in an interview with Interfax agency, according to which, inter alia, in terms of Britain and Poland.

- Taking by some countries efforts to provide military aid clearly contradicts the spirit and the records of Minsk agreements aimed to transfer the situation to the trend of long-term political settlement and can only jeopardize its continued tightening - said the Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation to the North Atlantic Alliance.

Interfax recalled that the previous day in London announced plans to referral to Ukraine 75 military instructors. Russian news agency reported that Poland also expressed its intention to send to Ukraine up to 100 military instructors.

Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defence Tomasz Siemoniak, when asked on Thursday in Prague about their plans of training Ukrainian military, he said that such a program is being prepared in NATO for months. He added that "we will decide in March whether our instructors will go to train Ukrainian non-commissioned officers." He stressed that cooperation with Ukraine began even before the Russian aggression.

[Rydygier 1302]

Interview with gen. Skrzypczak about Ukraine

Gen. Waldemar Skrzypczak: I think Ukraine is over.

In my opinion? Yes. Because what now Poroshenko can? He will try to keep in power as long as he can. And Ukraine? Ukraine lost everything she could lose. And with our participation - not so much Poland as Europe. This Europe, which agreed on everything Putin wanted, although I do not know at what price, because I do not know the behind the scenes negotiations, who gave Ukraine to Putin.

Putin won, what he wanted. And Poroshenko not even have the strength to resist Russia.

And Europe?

Abandoned the Ukraine.

Completely?

Sausage called sanctions tastes probably only Western European politicians.

John McCain says that he was ashamed for his country. Are you also - for Poland?

No. For Poland, I am not ashamed. I'm not a eulogist of our politicians, but the president Bronislaw Komorowski gives clear signals that is on the side of the Ukrainians. What more can he do? The more that politicians from the government are evolving - they want to give the gun once, and once not and as a result we do not know what they meant. Let finally decide what they want to do.

Shame is involved, but for the European Union. Apparently, I'm European. Shame for the EU is that it is internally divided: Greece, Hungary ... And now also the Italians travel to Putin. I am ashamed that I am European - European Union citizen.

This Europe in the persons of Francois Hollande and Angela Merkel went to Minsk. And it is Minsk 2. Does this agreement with the foundation is to break, or to accomplish?

It is not realized by anyone, but mainly by Russia, because Russia had to respect this agreement, and not some separatists. These separatists will not do anything without the consent of Putin - rebellion is directed from the Kremlin.

So I ask: for what purpose serves an agreement with Minsk? Mrs Merkel and Mr Hollande complacency? Or the peace and truce on the Eastern Ukraine?

So for what?

First of all, the satisfaction of Germany. And the Ukrainians? Unfortunately, no. They still are dying in the genocide carried out by separatists under the banner of Moscow. A Kremlin, Putin said that it is not his work.

Is this conflict can be resolved militarily? Diplomacy is the only way?

Militarily - no. After the Russian army is overwhelming, crushing advantage over the Ukrainian army. Army of Ukraine - outside volunteers - so in fact there: was shattered.

I wonder why Porsahenko holds in commanding positions people who are perhaps the most eminent incompetent commanders in the history of Ukraine.

Are you suggest that to a large extent the Russian agency?

I can not judge that. But I know that so inept commanders at the operational level, which has Poroshenko, I would drive them out. I really wonder the President of Ukraine. For me, there is something strange in this system, because from the beginning of the operation can be seen that these commanders poorly command. While Poroshenko is keeping these men. I am surprised that Poroshenko reaches to field commanders, but surrounded himself with losers who can not do, except they can perform in front of cameras.

Militarily, this operation will not win. Ukrainian Commanders do not have anything to fight with. And Russia will not agree to the introduction of peacekeepers, as if they should have entered the Ukraine, the Russian army offensive on the west and south of Ukraine would have to be stopped. Putin would stop the march.

In Ukraine, the Russian agency is everywhere. People who sympathize with Russia are everywhere - all over the territory of Ukraine. So Ukrainians also everywhere must now reckon with the attacks. There is no place to which Ukraine's enemies that they can not reach.

... But this conflict can only be resolved politically. For this, however, need the political will on the side of Russia. Russia must want peace - this is the key issue. And Putin does not want peace.

And weaponry that would have been delivered from the West to the Ukraine, could convince him?

Putin has been a little bit enough of this war. Russian soldiers still dying - the Russians know this. And they do not die alone, but in large numbers. (...) But for Russia, it is essential that they have not yet fully achieved strategic success.

Which is?

Throw Ukraine to her knees.

How to?

By forcing political change in Ukraine. Kremlin's point is that Ukraine return to Russia's sphere of influence and said: Sorry, we were wrong.

Lithuania also has the right to fear for their safety?

Putin's "Green men" would be difficult now to appear in Lithuania - it is NATO there and Putin sees that NATO is still too strong for him. The Putin's aim is thus to shatter EU, because if it succeeds, it will shatter NATO. Putin goes so step by step. If Putin break EU, NATO will also be weaker, and then a matter of fact, no one will defend Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

In my opinion, however, Transnistria will be the next target. Putin will go in this direction to remove from the contacts with the European Union also Moldova.

If the Kremlin withdrew its support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine, how fast - with the poor and poorly armed army battalions voluntary - could crush this rebellion?

I do not believe that it will accept Moscow's suppression of the rebellion. However, if the conditions were created for it in a month could force the separatists to negotiate and withdraw. But I repeat: it is Moscow deals the cards.

The likelihood that Moscow will withdraw support for the separatists is zero?

Of course, zero. It is impossible. Anyway, for Putin to withdraw support for the insurgency is to be or not to be. If he withdrew, then admit defeat. And it would be for him as a political defeat.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Rydygier

[.kju 3239]

[eng subs] UAF 25th bat. "Kiev Rus" commander reveals truth about Debaltsevo cauldron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-HxvAJVxo

Can someone confirm the authenticity and if that was really shown in Ukraine TV (if so what type of station)? Thanks

---

@ Sudayev

Thank you!

[sudayev 27]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/gabrielsanchez/pictures-from-the-front-lines-of-ukraine#.qwEMM03wJ4

Photos from Vuhlehirsk, a formerly sleepy coal-mining town 38 miles north of the rebel stronghold (no gore)

[Tonci87 163]

;2889027'][eng subs] UAF 25th bat. "Kiev Rus" commander reveals truth about Debaltsevo cauldron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-HxvAJVxo

Can someone confirm the authenticity and if that was really shown in Ukraine TV (if so what type of station)? Thanks

---

@ Sudayev

Thank you!

From the little Russian I understand the translation seems to be correct. He highlight something that has been very obvious from the start of the conflict. Not only do the Ukrainians lack the weapons to fight all the nice Russian toys that end up in Ukraine, on top of that their command is mostly composed of idiots that should have been replaced a long time ago.

[mistyronin 1181]

From the little Russian I understand the translation seems to be correct. He highlight something that has been very obvious from the start of the conflict. Not only do the Ukrainians lack the weapons to fight all the nice Russian toys that end up in Ukraine, on top of that their command is mostly composed of idiots that should have been replaced a long time ago.

I think no one had any doubts about the last line after the show of the general in command of the Antiterrorist operation, when he almost got taken by the mob during the first weeks of the Kremlin funded operation in Eastern Ukraine.

[sudayev 27]

Police have arrested eight Spaniards accused of fighting alongside pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31656455

[oxmox 73]

The Intercept

Arming Ukrainian Forces: Who Would That Actually Empower?

...anyone pointing out that arming the regime in Kiev would strengthen fascists and neo-Nazis is instantly accused of being a Putin propagandist: exactly like those arguing that the best anti-Assad fighters were al-Qaeda-affiliated were accused of being Assad propagandists (until that became the official position of the US Government).

But just as was true in Syria: while some involved in the Ukrainian coup were ordinary Ukrainians fighting against a corrupt and oppressive regime, these claims about the fascist thugs leading the fight for the Kiev government are actually true. Writing in Foreign Policy from eastern Ukraine last August, Alec Luhn observed:

Pro-Russian forces have said they are fighting against Ukrainian nationalists and “fascists†in the conflict, and in the case of Azov and other battalions, these claims are essentially true. . . . The Azov Battalion, whose emblem also includes the “Black Sun†occult symbol used by the Nazi SS, was founded by Andriy Biletsky, head of the neo-Nazi groups Social-National Assembly and Patriots of Ukraine.

In September, Shaun Walker wrote in the Guardian about his experience embedding with the pro-Kiev forces of the Azov, which he called “Ukraine’s most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists.†While dismissing as “overblown†Russian warnings that these groups seek to ethnically cleanse all of Ukraine, Walked described “the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members,†and noted that “Amnesty International called on the Ukrainian government to investigate rights abuses and possible executions by the Aidar, another battalion.â€

Ever since the coup in Kiev was carried out, these unpleasant facts about the pro-government forces have been largely ignored in most establishment U.S. media accounts, leaving a handful of commentators to point them out. In January of last year, as the coup was unfolding, the Guardian‘s Seumas Milne argued that the west’s morality narrative about Ukraine – democracy-fighters v. Putin oppressors – “bears only the sketchiest relationship to reality†and that, instead, “far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings.â€

Britain’s Channel 4 reported on the central role played by far-right ultra-nationalists in that coup, noting that Sen. John McCain traveled to the Ukrainian capital (pictured, above) and shared a stage with the worst fascist elements. Antiwar.com’s Justin Raimondo has long been warning of “the ascension of a genuinely fascist mass movement into the corridors of power†in Kiev, noting that far from being a handful of fringe elements, “the activists of the two main fascist parties in Ukraine – Svoboda and ‘Right Sector’ – provided the muscle the insurrectionists needed to take over government buildings in Kiev and across western Ukraine.â€

These facts have now become so glaring that even the most mainstream organizations in the west are now being compelled to point them out. Last week, Vox published an article by Amanda Taub about the “approximately 30 of these private armies fighting on the Ukrainian side,†whose “fighters are accused of serious human rights violations, including kidnappings, torture, and extrajudicial executions.†While claiming the militias operate largely separately from the central Kiev government, Taub nonetheless notes how central they have become to the fight against the separatists, and also acknowledges their clear use by Kiev officials:

The militias have also gained more power because the Ukrainian government, led by new President Petro Poroshenko, brought them friends in high places. For instance, Arsen Avakov, Poroshenko’s Minister of Internal Affairs, was previously the leader of former Prime Minister Yulia Timoshenko’s political bloc in eastern Ukraine. He has a longstanding alliance with members of the Azov Battalion, a far-right organization whose members have a history of promoting anti-Semitism and neo-Nazi views. Avakov has has used his position to support the group, going so far as to appoint Vadim Troyan, an Azov deputy leader, as the chief of police for the whole Kiev region. And Azov’s leader, Andriy Biletsky, is now a member of parliament as well.

One can debate whether empowering such thugs is a feature or a bug: it’s hardly rare for the U.S. knowingly to arm and prop up fascists and other assorted tyrants which it believes will promote its interests (see this morning’s David Ignatius column arguing that Egyptian dictator Gen. Abdel Fata Sisi is as bad as Mubarak when it comes human rights abuses, but the U.S. must continue steadfastly to support him so that he preserves “stabilityâ€). But at least when the U.S. is in bed with regimes such as the Saudis or Egyptians, most people understand the kind of allies it has embraced. In the case of Ukraine, those facts have been almost entirely excluded from mainstream discourse. Now that Obama’s leading national security official is expressly calling for the arming of those forces, it is vital that the true nature of America’s allies in this conflict be understood.

more....

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/27/clapper-calls-arming-ukrainian-forces-actually-empower/

[ProfTournesol 956]

Come on, who can buy that kind of "fascism" arguments ? That's plain ridiculous IMHO. Some people have no clue of what fascism was, or is. Who are the extreme rightists European movements fighting for or defending ? The pro Russian side. Period.

[Tonci87 163]

This is gonna be interesting