Ukraine General

[vilas 473]

whole world knows that Hitler was evil including Germany, Germans know about terror and evil stuff,

whole world knows Stalin was evil... except majority in Russia who call it "rusophobia" and they know that "we liberated Europe and now those fascists do not thank us" (minority knows it and they hate communist crimes and they know about crimes)

this makes difference , on which there is in this topic need to return to WW2 after almost every new Russian member posting, repeating all again, cause for some USSR was propaganda of friendship and those funny pictures of soldiers in WW2 (without all background like Home Army in PL, like Warsaw Uprising and Stalin decisions to forbid UK/US planes to refuel)

and why the hell they stick all the time their "we liberated Europe from Hitler" when we say about Ukraine which removed corrupted president, voted for new president - is rhetorical question - for them (because of constant media propaganda) those who not obey Putin are fascists (for rest of the world, fascists are those who fulfill fascism definition given in wikipedia, especially with this "strong leader" and who is closer to fullfill wikipedia given definition of being fascist , Ukrainians who removed corrupted politician (of course oligarchy system in Ukraine is f*up and they voted another oligarch) and want to choose their EU or Nato or other way, or Russians who have "strong leader cult", nationalism, and imperialism "if small country want to have defense system, it is attack on Russia !!!" )

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/MC3sQ3V6dQg

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

yeah i know(and we all do) russians think their county is the greatest and they should, but same go's for the US citizens,they think their country is the best(and it should),and so is every nation in europe,they think their country is the best and the best in the EU;problem with that is that in every case, its the politicians and the moneybackers for these politicians that destroying these great country's for profits for themselfs and their backers bankers and big industries. its all about the money and greed, nothing else, and they wont stop until they get it all.

but the problem is that the western propaganda is just as bad as the rest and most ppl believe it like their lives depend on it!, and while you all fear and look to Russia, your right,your country and every thing in between get trown to the bankers for penny's by your own goverments to only fill their(your politicians) pockets! your so-called democratic leaders dont give a damn about you or anybody, only their bankaccounts. only when you realise this you can open your eyes and see the crappy state and place we live in, and without any action they will continue to fill their pockets until there will be nothing left to plunder, all in the name for the mighty dollar or euro or roebel or yen or pond!

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/WJkF7V_VH-w

Grad shelling in Mariupol

[Tonci87 163]

yeah i know(and we all do) russians think their county is the greatest and they should, but same go's for the US citizens,they think their country is the best(and it should),and so is every nation in europe,they think their country is the best and the best in the EU;problem with that is that in every case, its the politicians and the moneybackers for these politicians that destroying these great country's for profits for themselfs and their backers bankers and big industries. its all about the money and greed, nothing else, and they wont stop until they get it all.

but the problem is that the western propaganda is just as bad as the rest and most ppl believe it like their lives depend on it!, and while you all fear and look to Russia, your right,your country and every thing in between get trown to the bankers for penny's by your own goverments to only fill their(your politicians) pockets! your so-called democratic leaders dont give a damn about you or anybody, only their bankaccounts. only when you realise this you can open your eyes and see the crappy state and place we live in, and without any action they will continue to fill their pockets until there will be nothing left to plunder, all in the name for the mighty dollar or euro or roebel or yen or pond!

Finally a post from you that I can agree with.

[aleksadragutin 9]

You know Bosnia and stuff..Srebrenica and other towns, doesn´t ring any bells? And yes Milosevic was responsible for that stuff, he gave the orders.

He was trialed on crimes in Croatia, Bosnia and the Kosovo.

Croatia: Crimes against humanity.

Prosecution, torture, executions, inhumane treatment

Warcrimes and violations of the Geneva Convention

Deportation of at least 170000 Croats and other non Serbs.

Massaker of Vukovar

Siege of Dubrovnik

Bosnia:

Genocide

Thousands of killed in the prison camps Omarska and Keraterm

Kosovo:

Forced displacement of the Albanian population.

Removal of at least 800000 civilians.

Crimes against humanity

War crimes

Common to all:

Ethnic cleansings

Imprisonment of people under inhumane conditions

Deportations and crimes against humanity

Destruction and pillaging of public and private objects

Attacks on, and executions of civilians

Artillery, mortar and Sniper attacks on civilians.

etc.

You can maybe read some more historical stuff than that. For example Srebrnica, where no orders from any higher directive was given, where corpses of soldiers and civilians are collected together to make the body count higher, and still couple of thousand are added by imagination to justify any action. Please, there are now movements to uncover the historical truth, and what has been spread until now is a far cry from the truth.

[Tonci87 163]

You can maybe read some more historical stuff than that. For example Srebrnica, where no orders from any higher directive was given, where corpses of soldiers and civilians are collected together to make the body count higher, and still couple of thousand are added by imagination to justify any action. Please, there are now movements to uncover the historical truth, and what has been spread until now is a far cry from the truth.

Wow, that is it, I will not argue with you any longer. Do you have the slightest idea how many families are still searching for their dead relatives who have just been dumped in some mass grave around that town? Nobody added a few thousand to justify anything. Mladic and his barbarians butchered over 8000 civilians in that town alone. That is a historical fact, and no ammount of brainwashing propaganda can change that. The graves are there, the bodies are there and the surviving mothers and wifes are there to testify.

[beastcat 14]

[aleksadragutin 9]

Wow, that is it, I will not argue with you any longer. Do you have the slightest idea how many families are still searching for their dead relatives who have just been dumped in some mass grave around that town? Nobody added a few thousand to justify anything. Mladic and his barbarians butchered over 8000 civilians in that town alone. That is a historical fact, and no ammount of brainwashing propaganda can change that. The graves are there, the bodies are there and the surviving mothers and wifes are there to testify.

That is not a fact, in fact every fact we ever knew about history doesn't have to be true. People will believe what suits them the best. Please do check some things out regarding the historical facts (you will find that 8000 is a way exaggerated number) but not just regarding this. It's the same with Ukraine events today. Thinking that your (who ever you might be) news are 100% true is foolish. Question some things.

I can imagine that what you just posted is backed by Croat general opinion and not actual research.

[mistyronin 1181]

Going back to topic:

( The Guardian ) NATO leaders cautiously welcome Ukraine ceasefire agreement

Nato leaders cautiously welcomed an apparent breakthrough in the five-month Ukrainian conflict after the country's president, Petro Poroshenko, and one of the leading pro-Russia separatist leaders agreed to order a ceasefire on Friday.

But Poroshenko caught Nato officials off-guard with the disclosure that, while Nato is not arming Ukraine, individual countries, which he did not name, were providing the country with high precision weapons.

The ceasefire, part of a seven-point peace plan proposed by the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, on Wednesday, would freeze forces in their positions at around midday on Friday.

The logic thing, that was practically no secret.

[Tonci87 163]

I told you I won´t argue since it will lead nowhere. You do the research instead of believing what suits you best.

Another Vice Report is up, again no link due to graphic content. The civilians are always the ones who see the real horror of war.

[mistyronin 1181]

One thing that I don't get it, is that it seems proven that some countries have provided military equipment to the government of Ukraine ( "high precision weapons", according to Poroshenko ). But in the front lines, the Ukrainian Army doesn't look precisely well equipped, basically they only have light weapons ( rifles, MGs, and some RPGs ) that are unable to stop the Russian tank columns. So where does that equipment goes? to the parade motorcade?

[oxmox 73]

I would like to know what kind of info is written here, the info belongs to the video you did post which is now in the main Ukrainian media:

If I follow the screenshots and location with the road sign and compare it with the video, it looks like they are driving towards the russian boarder, am I right ?

http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/09/3/7036633/

Edited September 4, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

I would like to know what kind of info is written here, the info belongs to the video you did post which is now in the main Ukrainian media:

http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.pravda.com.ua/img.pravda.com/images/doc/9/8/982ef1f-1.jpg.pagespeed.ce.Ev-Ekaw95X.jpg

If I follow the screenshots and location with the road sign and compare it with the video, it looks like they are driving towards the russian boarder, am I right ?

The picture you provided is for this video:

If you want to find more about it you can take a look at the most recent Ukraine@War blog post.

What the exact meaning of this is, is unclear. Is this rotation of units? Are they heading south? Will they turn?

It does not necessarily mean they return to Russia. There is a route South that goes through Krasnodon.

From there they may go West again to Donetsk or even into the direction of Mariupol.

Since the Ukrainian army still controls Debaltseve, that road is not available for transport to the South.

[oxmox 73]

The picture you provided is for this video:

If you want to find more about it you can take a look at the most recent Ukraine@War blog post.

So I wasnt wrong with the driving direction of the military column heading towards east. This was only a confusing part for me.

The whole story is still irritating me since the OSCE is observing this area and has actually only 10km away a checkpoint on this highway, this is strange since everything is so public.

This is the biggest military column I have seen so far on video.

Well, but they dont talk in the article about russian troops but russian vehicles, it shows a a huge support by russia if the story is true and experts can confirm the type of military equipment ....Thank you.

Edited September 4, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

That reports that Russian Regular soldiers were send for "exercises" and ended in a war, are the same as the ones seen in the autobiographies of soldiers that fought in Chechnya.

( The Guardian ) Russian soldier: 'You're better clueless because the truth is horrible'

Samchuk, who worked as a barman in the western Ukrainian city of Lutsk before being recruited to the army, said he and his comrades rescued a Russian in an armoured vehicle they destroyed near the town. "He told us he served in 8th Chechen brigade [possibly the 8th mountain motor-rifle brigade, based in Chechnya] and he claimed he thought they were sent here for exercises," Samchuk said, adding that the soldier was now being treated in a Kiev hospital.

Russia has flatly denied any of its troops are operating in Ukraine, claiming a group of paratroopers captured by Ukrainians deep inside their territory were on a border patrol mission and crossed "accidentally". President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly said that Russia is not party to the "internal Ukrainian conflict". But the evidence is mounting that an impending rebel defeat pushed Moscow to intervene more overtly in the past two weeks. There have been repeated sightings of Russian army ration packaging and of "green men" without insignia similar to those who took part in the annexation of Crimea, as well as satellite images which, Nato claims, show Russian armour inside Ukraine.

[surpher 1]

So I wasnt wrong with the driving direction of the military column heading towards east. This was only a confusing part for me.

The whole story is still irritating me since the OSCE is observing this area and has actually only 10km away a checkpoint on this highway, this is strange since everything is so public.

This is the biggest military column I have seen so far on video.

Well, but they dont talk in the article about russian troops but russian vehicles, it shows a a huge support by russia if the story is true and experts can confirm the type of military equipment ....Thank you.

The OSCE are at the border post in Donets'k, Russia, they don't patrol anywhere. Russian vehicles cross the border to the north of the border post. In the image you posted, the town to the east (Sukhodil's'k) is a well known route to and from the border.

Edited September 4, 2014 by surpher

[Tonci87 163]

That reports that Russian Regular soldiers were send for "exercises" and ended in a war, are the same as the ones seen in the autobiographies of soldiers that fought in Chechnya.

( The Guardian ) Russian soldier: 'You're better clueless because the truth is horrible'

Conscripts are never told the truth about where they are going. They do this to prevent desertations.

[oxmox 73]

The OSCE are at the border post in Donets'k, Russia, they don't patrol anywhere. Russian vehicles cross the border to the north of the border post. In the image you posted, the town to the east (Sukhodil's'k) is a well known route to and from the border.

I can imagine there will be more than only boarder controls to observe the conflict and the intelligence from the western nations will take its part aswell. I did read the OSCE will be using drones to observe critical areas. It is understandable that they cant cover everything like you say and therefore everything is possible.

Anyway neutral organisations are important. I remember very well on the Hans Blix mission in Iraq and they were right, when parts of the world disagreed and the media did spread propaganda instead of critical journalism.

Edited September 4, 2014 by oxmox

[Dwarden 1124]

okay, let each one will have its own version of history.

And one question, USSR no longer existed a quarter century, but the anti-Soviet-Russian propaganda continues hard shit on our history, what is the ultimate goal?

my grandparents are more trust-able than your propaganda ...

[beastcat 14]

I can imagine there will be more than only boarder controls to observe the conflict and the intelligence from the western nations will take its part aswell. I did read the OSCE will be using drones to observe critical areas. It is understandable that they cant cover everything like you say and therefore everything is possible.

Anyway neutral organisations are important. I remember very well on the Hans Blix mission in Iraq and they were right, when parts of the world disagreed and the media did spread propaganda instead of critical journalism.

They only have 16 permanent observers on two checkpoints, its really as easy as driving around them. They don't patrol and they don't use drones (and probably won't because russia wont allow it). Yet they still reported on russian UAVs, which are used to watch the border, so the russians can time and place it so they can't be seen or hit.

[vilas 473]

my grandparents are more trust-able than your propaganda ...

i can repeat it, moreover, i work with guy (50 y.o) whose grandfather was murdered in Katyn because was sergeant of Polish army, and whose father (would be 95 y.o) was arrested and imprisoned in 1945-1950 for being not-commie

my family had 11 ha of land (0.1 sq km2) in place which is now Belarussian/Lithuanian border, this land was confiscated in Sept 1939 when my family was sent to Siberia (where my aunt was born in 1940 in Syberia) and my family was held in USSR till 1958, because of this all my parents and family have place of birth USSR not Poland (before WW2 this territory was Poland), cause we were kept there till my mother was 10 , till my uncle was 12, till my auntie was 18, the same to many friends of my mother, who also "were born in USSR" and who left with nothing after 1950s without any property, any land, any house, any farm cause all was confiscated and turned to Kolhoz

---------- Post added at 06:26 ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 ----------

Conscripts are never told the truth about where they are going. They do this to prevent desertations.

thats true, i know from old people, that usual Soviet soldiers who were sent to Czechoslovakia in 1968, were told they are going to Germany cause neo-nazis took power again , they had no idea they go to Slavic country, only officers were told to know true mission in 1968

---------- Post added at 06:30 ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 ----------

One thing that I don't get it, is that it seems proven that some countries have provided military equipment to the government of Ukraine ( "high precision weapons", according to Poroshenko ). But in the front lines, the Ukrainian Army doesn't look precisely well equipped, basically they only have light weapons ( rifles, MGs, and some RPGs ) that are unable to stop the Russian tank columns. So where does that equipment goes? to the parade motorcade?

accodring to what i know, Poland refused to sell weapons because of Merkel , so i do not know what west supply you talk, maybe helmets, but i doubt , Poroshenko tries to keep good mood of his nation and give hope in hopeless situation, but truth is that west doesn't give a f*, they wait when they can deal with Russia again , if Poroshenko would said true, than Right Sector would have 50% of votes, not 5%,

maybe few private US weapon companies sold some rifles, but it would be US private company deal, not western Europe help, western Europe do not give f* about Ukrainian suffering, they want to sell products to biggest market place in this region which is Russia (cause Ukrainians live in poverty and they are not good clients, so noone gives a damn, the same with Poland or Lithuania, we are poor, we are not clients, they do not give a f* about our needs i so called illusion of EU "one united bla bla europe" which in fact is "german-french-british domination", now Tusk will try to make Poles life in UK as hard as possible after agreement with Cameron)

Ukraine because of their corrupted governments in past, became Africa of the Europe, so they are too poor to be important to anyone who thinks about "business", their oligarchs stolen all capital in nation, and those oligarchs have more money than Ukrainian army would need, but they will not give money,

Ukrainian army has budget needs lower than some Oligarchs spent on their palaces

Ukraine has some extremely rich people, who , if were patriots, would buy dozens of new tanks, but ... they are just thieves who can steal taxes (state contracts businessman who in honest free market would not be rich, they are rich cause they were allowed to steal, usual mafia but with law immunity) to private pocket ,

Edited September 5, 2014 by vilas

[Rydygier 1302]

Well, about arming Ukraine, yesterday I found this:

Komorowski at the NATO summit: we will not sell weapons to Ukraine

President Bronislaw Komorowski met with the president Petro Poroshenko in Newport. From the side of Ukrainian president there were not expectations for the sale of weapons by Poland, although in this case the leaders of NATO gave to member states green light.

Inquired by the press, president clarified that during the talks with Poroshenko talked about the need to support the Ukrainian army, its modernization, rebuilding and reconstruction, but in the context of already ended conflict. - Of course, Poland is willing to respond positively to expectations of Ukraine. The president said that we made ​​a gigantic work in the modernization of our armed forces and are happy to give our support in this regard. - Arms around the world - where there is no a serious conflict - is the subject of trade. But during a meeting with Poroshenko expectations for sales weapons to Ukraine by Poland did not appear.

About the aid for Ukraine also spoke NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. In his opinion, the Alliance can not rearm Ukraine, because it has no military potential, but may do so Member States which have such potential. He also stated that NATO does not intend to interfere in the decisions taken at national level.

When it comes to support Ukraine - as announced Rasmussen - Summit decides to appoint a trust fund, from which the funds are going to reform the Ukrainian army, logistics and improving cybersecurity. Rasmussen bluntly demanded that Russia withdraw its troops from Ukraine and stop supporting the separatists.

---------- Post added at 09:31 ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 ----------

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/11,1138591-Prezydent-Bronislaw-Komorowski-o-wschodniej-flance-NATO-w-Newport.html

- I estimate that was managed to successfully avoid serious controversy, differences in the way of understanding what is needed to do to make eastern flank seriously strengthened - he (Komorowski) said.

He expressed satisfaction that the vision of NATO as the expeditionary organizationan "goes into history, and returns the traditional role of the alliance as an organization specialized in the defense of territories of the Member States".

When asked about the announcement of the appointment of "Spearhead" - as it was called NATO Secretary General - the President said that it is about separation within the NATO Response Force (NRF) Brigade numbering approx. 4 thousand soldiers of immediate response.

Komorowski, who in Newport spoke with the President of Ukraine Petr Poroshenko, also answered questions about possible military aid to Ukraine.

- Defining of the boundaries of political flexibility, current objectives of Ukraine and the expected support is primarily the responsibility of the Ukraine itself - said. - Poland continues to provide support to the independence and territorial integrity, but for us it is essential that the Ukrainian side defined their own goals and aspirations - added.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Rydygier

[mistyronin 1181]

I agree with you that the inactivity of certain countries in relation with the latest Russian aggression is quite worrisome. The curious thing is that while Western countries try to deescalate the situation, Russia is adding as much fuel as possible to keep escalating it as much as they can.

accodring to what i know, Poland refused to sell weapons because of Merkel , so i do not know what west supply you talk, maybe helmets, but i doubt , Poroshenko tries to keep good mood of his nation and give hope in hopeless situation, but truth is that west doesn't give a f*, they wait when they can deal with Russia again , if Poroshenko would said true, than Right Sector would have 50% of votes, not 5%

( The Guardian ) Nato leaders cautiously welcome Ukraine ceasefire agreement

But Poroshenko, who expressed cautious optimism about the truce, caught Nato officials off-guard with the disclosure that, while Nato was not arming Ukraine, at least one country, which he did not name, was providing Kiev with high-precision weapons.

Edited September 5, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

I agree with you that the inactivity of certain countries in relation with the latest Russian aggression is quite worrisome. The curious thing is that while Western countries try to deescalate the situation, Russia is adding as much fuel as possible to keep escalating it as much as they can.

( The Guardian ) Nato leaders cautiously welcome Ukraine ceasefire agreement

Russia just keeps it boiling. I tell you the real purpose of this whole thing is to.

A: Damage Ukraine by destroying their industry, especially their well known arms industry.

B: Secure a land corridor towards Crimea.

C: Secure the oil and gas ressources around Crimea.

D: Push the international community to a point where they will accept that Crimea is now Russian just to end the conflict.