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batto

Ukraine General

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i really start to believe they must have some kind of brainwashing subliminal techniq in their tv

i do not have TV, i do not watch TV i am able to criticize my media, they ... 84% support and believe in biggest lies visible for anyone outside

The thing is they are watching russian media from very early on in their life and the propaganda never really stopped after soviet times. They basically just live in an alternative world, where things that don't make any sense for the "western" world are perceived normal and obvious and they are so conviced that they will believe the most retarded and nonsensical explaination for their point of view, whereas every evidence for the other side is considered fake propaganda.

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The OSCE has only proof that several volunteers do fight with the seperatatists but no regular russian troops. This was reported today. There are volunteers from other countries participating with the Ukranian Army aswell by the way.

But if the "separatists" themselves recognize it:

( Al Jazeera ) Ukraine rebels say Russia troops among forces

A pro-Russia rebel leader has said serving Russian soldiers, on leave from their posts, are fighting Ukrainian troops alongside the country's separatists in eastern Ukraine, the website of a Russian state television channel has reported.

"Among us are fighting serving soldiers, who would rather take their vacation not on a beach but with us, among brothers, who are fighting for their freedom," said Zakharchenko in an interview posted on Thursday on Vesti.ru.

In most of the European countries to fight in another country, even if you are not serving in the army, is considered a crime ( and you go straight to jail and may even lose your citzenship ).

For instance Germany: It is punishable "to recruit" German citizens "for military duty in a military or military-like facility in support of a foreign power" (Section-sign StGB). Furthermore, a German risks the loss of his citizenship, if he enlists in an armed force of a state he is also citizen of.

The United Kingdom passed a Foreign Enlistment Act in 1819 and then the Foreign Enlistment Act 1870, making it unlawful for British subjects to join the armed forces of any state warring with another state at peace with Britain.

And may even fall into the definition of mercenary according to the Geneva Convention ( The Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts, (Protocol I), 8 June 1977 )

Edited by MistyRonin

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I can't find such reference on the OSCE website. But anyway, OSCE are observers, as long as they don't see Russian troops with Russian flags, they will do that statement, as in Crimea.

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Regarding Gear... you can get all kinds of Russian gear here at a german dealer, I have all of my stuff from there. But the funny thing is... Ballistic vest and helmets are sold out for months now!

http://www.wttag.de/shop/

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i really start to believe they must have some kind of brainwashing subliminal techniq in their tv

i do not have TV, i do not watch TV i am able to criticize my media, they ... 84% support and believe in biggest lies visible for anyone outside

Trust me, that's a misconception about russians believing lies from TV. They all perfectly understand what's going on; that Russia created an insurgency, supply it with arms and people, invade with regular detatchments without IDs. Russians do know it and they fully support it.

Everyone talks Putin this, Putin that, Putin-Hitler, its all because of him, bla bla. Dont confuse cause and effect. Do you seriously think if Putin suddenly dies anything will change? The level of hatred in russian society is just overwhelming, they always look for an enemy. Give them a good fuhrer and show whom to kill - theyre happy. Look at history.

Just look at Spooky Lynx. He knows about russian involvement in this war better than any of us. How can anyone seriously argue with him?

It turns into mini-UNSC.:)

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Regarding Gear... you can get all kinds of Russian gear here at a german dealer, I have all of my stuff from there. But the funny thing is... Ballistic vest and helmets are sold out for months now!

http://www.wttag.de/shop/

You can only buy decorative gear btw, it doesn't actually have any ballistic protection. Civilians can't just buy proper body armor.

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But who can seriously blame Russia for it...they just start doing now what the USA and even China did in the last 70 years.

---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

You can only buy decorative gear btw, it doesn't actually have any ballistic protection. Civilians can't just buy proper body armor.
Thats not true, there is only a limit with protextion classes...civilians can get up to level III, but I can get Level IV just because I have an ID as an reservist...But I consider myself an civilist since I'm out of active service for 19 years. I still got my old Gear at home including the old "Splitterschutzweste" Flak vest and the Helmet, but all that Aramid fabric is gettign worse with time and after 10 years there is no guaratied protection anymore...thats why the MoD does not even bother about all that old stuff.

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But who can seriously blame Russia for it...they just start doing now what the USA and even China did in the last 70 years.

---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

Thats not true, there is only a limit with protextion classes...civilians can get up to level III, but I can get Level IV just because I have an ID as an reservist...But I consider myself an civilist since I'm out of active service for 19 years. I still got my old Gear at home including the old "Splitterschutzweste" Flak vest and the Helmet, but all that Aramid fabric is gettign worse with time and after 10 years there is no guaratied protection anymore...thats why the MoD does not even bother about all that old stuff.

Well, I stand corrected then.

Uhm... I mean, level III armor isn't proper armor. :)

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You can only buy decorative gear btw, it doesn't actually have any ballistic protection. Civilians can't just buy proper body armor.

Don't know about Russia, but in Ukraine you can buy metal/ceramic plates of any class, as well as helmets.

For example http://prof1group.ua/product/keramicheskaya-broneplastina-6-klass-zaschityi-standart-ukrainyi-1780

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I can't find such reference on the OSCE website. But anyway, OSCE are observers, as long as they don't see Russian troops with Russian flags, they will do that statement, as in Crimea.

Well, I posted a bunch of other reputeable press releases, they refer to the familiar dpa press agency. The OSCE is the organisation who is monitoring the military situation in the Ukraine, the "small brother" similar like the UNO just for Europe. The OSCE cant deliver any proof that regular russian troops are in the Ukraine, but the NATO claims.

Edited by oxmox

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Don't know about Russia, but in Ukraine you can buy metal/ceramic plates of any class, as well as helmets.

For example http://prof1group.ua/product/keramicheskaya-broneplastina-6-klass-zaschityi-standart-ukrainyi-1780

I was talking about the website and Germany, because I have never seen proper bullet proof wests there, not about Ukraine or Russia, but yeah, you can do that.

I don't know how exactly it works in Russia, but here I found a l III vest:

http://pro-spec.ru/catalog/sredstva-bezopasnosti-individualnogo-primeneniya/bronezhilety/bronezhilet-kazak-6ssm-s-n-03.html

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Well, I stand corrected then.

Uhm... I mean, level III armor isn't proper armor. :)

Stanag lvl 3 stops a 7,62 × 51 mm NATO AP at 30 Meters.

---------- Post added at 20:46 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

I was talking about the website and Germany, because I have never seen proper bullet proof wests there, not about Ukraine or Russia, but yeah, you can do that.

I don't know how exactly it works in Russia, but here I found a l III vest:

http://pro-spec.ru/catalog/sredstva-bezopasnosti-individualnogo-primeneniya/bronezhilety/bronezhilet-kazak-6ssm-s-n-03.html

I tell you they had ballistic helmets and vest in stock before the crisis. And of course it#s not that easy we are talking about russian gear and that's not that easy to coem by in germany at all. If you do not stick to russian stuff it easier.

http://www.safeguardclothing.de/23-kugelsichere-weste-ballistische

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Stanag lvl 3 stops a 7,62 × 51 mm NATO AP at 30 Meters.

How does that compare to a 7.62x54?

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:47 ----------

I tell you they had ballistic helmets and vest in stock before the crisis. And of course it#s not that easy we are talking about russian gear and that's not that easy to coem by in germany at all. If you do not stick to russian stuff it easier. http://www.safeguardclothing.de/?gclid=Cj0KEQjw7IWgBRCjv8Cv4vfC3ckBEiQAE7nvRx6jnJDs5hymk0VWU7EGEaE2Q24Oi6Lby3Q6OGgnQC0aAsN08P8HAQ

As I said, I stay corrected.

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Well, I posted a bunch of other reputeable press releases, they refer to the familiar dpa press agency. The OSCE is the organisation who is monitoring the military situation in the Ukraine, the "small brother" similar like the UNO just for Europe.

I don't deny the statement is true, the OSCE website is quite complex to look through. I know what OSCE is, but, as in Crimea, as long as soldiers aren't wearing national flags, how can OSCE observers on the ground say if they are Russian regular troops or not ?

BTW, on the same OSCE website :

Russian authorities must end impunity for attacks on journalists, says OSCE Representative following another attack in Pskov

Edited by ProfTournesol

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I don't deny the statement is true, the OSCE website is quite complex to look through. I know what OSCE is, but, as in Crimea, as long as soldiers aren't wearing national flags, how can OSCE observers on the ground say if they are Russian regular troops or not ?

BTW, on the same OSCE website :

Russian authorities must end impunity for attacks on journalists, says OSCE Representative following another attack in Pskov

I only can post what i find, they are links from famous newspapers/magazines and TV channels. I post it for information, I try to avoid to be a proponer from only one side in this conflict. There is too much going on and it is best if you try to see it from a neutral standpoint, which is of course not always possible since media and infos influence you. I did read that in one of the article it is described that the OSCE did give an interview in Moscow, talking aswell about the situation but I could not find the interview.

On the other hand, the NATO claims there are troops in the Ukraine. The OSCE talks only about several russian volunteers.

The question is, how many volunteers are fighting with the Ukrainian military and with seperatists. Both sides in this conflict have military volunteers.

Edited by oxmox

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Chechens on Ukraine "allah akbar" when shooting

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I did read that in one of the article it is described that the swiss leader of the OSCE did give aswell interview in Moscow, talking aswell about the situation but I could not find the interview.

I found that statement from him : http://www.osce.org/cio/123069

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I found that statement from him : http://www.osce.org/cio/123069

In this statement there is not much to read about that no evidence could be find of regular russian troops like from the dpa press agency. But you probably wont find it, its a release by the press agencies. They could be volunteers, disguised as volunteers and/or Ukrainian citizen with dual passports since at least 75% of the population in the East-Ukraine is ethnically russian or speaks russian as their motherlanguage.

What I miss in the discussion here and in the media is the fact that a lot of talks abut russia is happening and it is of course important because there seem to be russian military supplies, but at the end there are still Ukranian people who are shooting Ukrainians, isnt it ?

Edited by oxmox

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CNN - Reporter is searching the Invasion

Ukrainian military leader´s remark dont match situation found by CNN

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CNN - Reporter is searching the Invasion

Ukrainian military leader´s remark dont match situation found by CNN

If that video was from the CNN why not directly link to their website? We already seen some nice fakes with logos.

On the other hand, if the 50 T72s were brought from the pro-Russian zone in Donetsk, how has he brought them without anyone noticing. Crossing the siege line, checkpoints etc. I mean, are tanks, are easy to see it and are damn noisy...

That story doesn't add up in any sense.

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