Ukraine General

[sudayev 27]

I was wondering why some countries remain completely silent when in comes to russian aggression on Ukraine.

Belgium, Denmark, Spain, Italy? Seriously, where are they??? It's all quiet from them since russians took Crimea. I haven't heard any words of condemnation and disapproval towards aggressive russian behaviour from leading politicians from these countries. They simply sit quiet and not worry, why worrying since this is happening so far they say. Is this one of the reasons that EU remains so divided?

[aleksadragutin 9]

I was wondering why some countries remain completely silent when in comes to russian aggression on Ukraine.

Belgium, Denmark, Spain, Italy? Seriously, where are they??? It's all quiet from them since russians took Crimea. I haven't heard any words of condemnation and disapproval towards aggressive russian behaviour from leading politicians from these countries. They simply sit quiet and not worry, why worrying since this is happening so far they say. Is this one of the reasons that EU remains so divided?

Well what do you want them to do? Invade Russia?

[mistyronin 1181]

Then again that could be the trigger for full on Russian invasion. They, after all, don't have so many red lines.

That's what Putin propaganda is trying to sell.

But he has indeed a lot of red lines. If Putin leads a full invasion, he will lose a lot of support in Russia, and what he really fears is to end like Yanukovic. Besides that Russia is highly in debt and can't afford losing the international support.

The funny thing, is that Putin would also lose support if he pulls back, so he has to keep walking at the edge of the knife, as he has done these last months.

At this moment the number of Russian dead soldiers is already causing alarm in the Russian population.

Remember that Putin really needs to keep in power, or he is a dead man ( the other important powers in Russia would eliminate him ), and he knows it. So he is trying to do all kind of acrobatics to keep the power. That's why all the lies.

[negah 26]

I'm half in favor of sending some F-16s over and telling them we're going to knock out any insurgent armored columns we find but don't worry Russia, you don't have any troops in Ukraine so you have nothing to worry about.

So that they will be shot down by separatists or russians? How many ukrainian aircrafts were downed in that conflict?

I guess bombing lybian or iraqi forces, and bombing russian troops is quite different in terms of opposing forces and its equipment. And from the recent US wars it seems USA are only eager to fight those who cannot fight back. Basically just like Russia, I mean who wants to lose a war anyway.

Besides that Russia is highly in debt and can't afford losing the international support.

In fact Russia is not really that much in debt, russian debt is only 10.84% of Russia's GDP http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/russia

Compare it to US debt, which is 102.24% of US GDP http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/unitedstates

Besides national debt not only mean debt to foreign investors or banks, but also pensions and the like.

After a bit of converting (note that I did a lot of rounding, therefore only approximated results):

Russian debt: approx. 170,858,200,000 €

US debt: approx. 13,419,132,990,448 €

That means you have to multiply the russian debt by a factor of 78.5 to get US debt.

Edited August 28, 2014 by negah

[mistyronin 1181]

I guess bombing lybian or iraqi forces, and bombing russian troops is quite different in terms of opposing forces and its equipment. And from the recent US wars it seems USA are only eager to fight those who cannot fight back. Basically just like Russia, I mean who wants to lose a war anyway.

Indeed, the NATO will not get involved in direct actions. Maybe as much sending a peacekeeping force.

Basically because the toll would be too high. IMO they would allow Russia to take the whole Ukraine than to send troops.

On the other hand, if Russians did that, all the countries in the world would isolate them, even China. So it's unlikely.

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

In fact Russia is not really that much in debt, russian debt is only 10.84% of Russia's GDP.

( Forbes ) Russia's Growing Regional Debts Threaten Stability

The problem with the debts are not the size of them, but if Russia is gonna be able to pay it back. That's why no one is worried about France's debt even if it's way higher than the Spanish one.

And if Russia got no credits from foreign investors, they are not gonna be able to pay. While the US can get credit from almost anyone.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Indeed, the NATO will not get involved in direct actions. Maybe as much sending a peacekeeping force.

Basically because the toll would be too high. IMO they would allow Russia to take the whole Ukraine than to send troops.

On the other hand, if Russians did that, all the countries in the world would isolate them, even China. So it's unlikely.

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

( Forbes ) Russia's Growing Regional Debts Threaten Stability

The problem with the debts are not the size of them, but if Russia is gonna be able to pay it back. That's why no one is worried about France's debt even if it's way higher than the Spanish one.

And if Russia got no credits from foreign investors, they are not gonna be able to pay. While the US can get credit from almost anyone.

They can get a loan to pay off another loan? Then they're really replacing one debt with another. What matters is GDP.

Edited August 28, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[mistyronin 1181]

They can get credit to pay off another credit?

Yeah that's what usually happens. Both in companies and countries.

Ask the Argentinians...

The GDP will fall if there is no foreign inversion, and they are unable to sell their resources.

Then they would ask for credit, but at higher interest as no one would trust them to pay back, etc.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yeah that's what usually happens. Both in companies and countries.

Ask the Argentinians...

The GDP will fall if there is no foreign inversion, and they are unable to sell their resources.

Then they would ask for credit, but at higher interest as no one would trust them to pay back, etc.

That would mean that countries such as US will crash at one time or another, and the problem is that they are buying weapons rather than paying back debt.

[mistyronin 1181]

That would mean that countries such as US will crash at one time or another, and the problem is that they are buying weapons rather than paying back debt.

No, as I said the US doesn't have this problem ( maybe in a far future ), neither Germany. Because they don't depend on the natural resources and are able to create more richness than what they owe ( Hollywood, Silicon Valley, Baden Württemberg, etc. ).

Imagine that you own a potatoes farm. You get in debt to pay the fertilizers, but all the world decide to not buy your potatoes. Then you must ask for credit to pay the interests for the first debt and hope for a better future or just fail. That can be done for a few times, but every time the creditors will ask more interests as they don't want to risk.

And eventually one they if the "bright future" doesn't arrive, all goes to trash ( that has happened in Argentina, and in a lot of African and South American countries.

But Putin may not worry much, because that could take a lot of years, that he can use to keep getting money from his corrupt friends and design an escape plan ( like Yanukovich did ).

Edited August 28, 2014 by MistyRonin

[jakerod 254]

So that they will be shot down by separatists or russians? How many ukrainian aircrafts were downed in that conflict?

I guess bombing lybian or iraqi forces, and bombing russian troops is quite different in terms of opposing forces and its equipment. And from the recent US wars it seems USA are only eager to fight those who cannot fight back. Basically just like Russia, I mean who wants to lose a war anyway.

First off, there is a reason I said half in favor. Secondly, US has better tech than Ukraine does and while some aircraft could be lost it wouldn't be that many (by my "professional" estimates). A lot of them, supposedly, were shot down from Russia too. I don't think the US would just let them get away with that and I don't think Russia would be dumb enough to do it either. The main point is I want Russia to stop playing their stupid "Oh what are you talking about? We don't have troops in Russia. How could you accuse innocent old us of that?".

[mistyronin 1181]

US has better tech than Ukraine does and while some aircraft could be lost it wouldn't be that many (by my "professional" estimates).

I think you underestimate the Russian technology ( if even with old Stingers provided by the US in the 70's the Taliban were able to shoot down some US aircrafts these last years. And even the "poor" Serbia was able to shot down the most stealthy aircraft at that time, F117, during the NATO Bombings of Serbia; and with an old modified soviet system.

BTW the US would do all in its power to avoid a direct conflict with Russia, the stakes would be too high.

Edited August 28, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

I was wondering why some countries remain completely silent when in comes to russian aggression on Ukraine.

Belgium, Denmark, Spain, Italy? Seriously, where are they??? It's all quiet from them since russians took Crimea. I haven't heard any words of condemnation and disapproval towards aggressive russian behaviour from leading politicians from these countries. They simply sit quiet and not worry, why worrying since this is happening so far they say. Is this one of the reasons that EU remains so divided?

the same is with islamists issue which legally protest in their cities with transparent "kill all infidels",

the same is with criminals issue who rob them and they wait crying when police arrive,

westernians bacame very passive and how to call it in gay way - submissive , only this word i know in English which is not native language of me,

so westernians are submissive and they sit and wait "cannot be that baaad, o lets wait minute and all will be well", western europans have something in their heads what turns off option "fight back, defend" , i do not know if it is from politcal corecntess or what, but Jews in topic about their war, also note they see westernians as people who are passive and giving up to avoid any violence in the name of tollerance or in this case , or it is simply because of business of their elites, in the name of business , they want to have customer happy, no matter of any human cost at Ukrainian or other nation case, simply to sell products

i was repeating this countless time in this topic - Russia is big and good customer, Russia buy a lot of products

[mistyronin 1181]

Most of the West European countries are tired of big wars, and will do anything they can to prevent them. Because they know the costs too well.

One thing are little proxy wars in Libya, Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan. But the risk of a full war versus Russia is seen as unneeded and crazy. The problem is that this fear enables Russia to keep with their imperialist agenda.

It's a Poker Game with high stakes.

It's similar to what happened with Hitler. But Putin doesn't seem to want to go that far.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

( The Guardian ) Obama, UN call emergency meetings to discuss Russian incursion into Ukraine

To watch it live.

Edited August 28, 2014 by MistyRonin

[papanowel 120]

Belgium, Denmark, Spain, Italy?

Do you really think that Belgium and Denmark have the power to decide whatever they want about Russia?

We're following other big European nation, we have the same policy. We don't do less than the other, it is just that you will not hear from a small country that does not count that much in the balance.

[katipo66 94]

Are there or have there been any mass protests against Russia? I remember the whole world protesting against the invasion of Iraq, it felt like protests every where then, people out in the tens of thousands, why is their no protest against such "Nazi" behavior here? Interesting..

[vilas 473]

Most of the West European countries are tired of big wars, and will do anything they can to prevent them.

they will do all to keep customer happy (buying products)

Germany (Merkel) last actions proove it more than enough

Are there or have there been any mass protests against Russia? I remember the whole world protesting against the invasion of Iraq, it felt like protests every where then, people out in the tens of thousands, why is their no protest against such "Nazi" behavior here? Interesting.

84% of support for Putin

Russians become imperliasts and nationalists, they start to feel after collapse of USSR what Germans felt in 20/30s after lost WW1 , they want to be number one , so they support , plus brainwashing media, controll of information (internet control - there was about it in this topic few times), along with economical succes which makes Putin hero for them, every nation loved their leaders colonial politics in XIXc, cause they had cheap labour and cheap products due to colonialism in those countries, anyone protested against colonialism in UK in 1880s?

do you have in Saudi Arabia or Iran protests against beheading gay ? why? cause their societies do not see anything wrong in things we call barbaric (even most hadrcore anti-lgtb right wing person i know , respect gays right to live and just do not want to see gays showing off in public or gay-scenes in media, but noone want to kill them, in Saudi Arabia "it is normal ? what's the problem ? we do not understand?")

Edited August 28, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Ukraine has called for the right of self-defense of its country against the Russia aggression in the UN SC.

Also the UK has made a nice list of all the transgressions and lies from Russia.

From NATO:

---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:22 ----------

President Obama will make a statement on the Ukraine crisis at 4pm, the White House has announced.

Maybe it's something about red lines or so :rolleyes:

Ian Traynor, the Guardian’s Europe editor, quotes diplomats in the run-up to the 4-5 September Nato summit as saying that Nato forces in the east are readily deployable if needed:

Edited August 28, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

more images http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/08/28/nato-these-new-satellite-images-show-russian-troops-in-and-around-ukraine/

Ian Traynor, the Guardian’s Europe editor, quotes diplomats in the run-up to the 4-5 September Nato summit as saying that Nato forces in the east are readily deployable if needed:

no worry, Merkel will block it, 2 days ago or yesterday, Germany (if to believe to press) voted against/blocked idea of Poland to have all-time NATO base on territory of Poland on NATO meeting or something like that , i cannot remember all such news in 1 head,

Edited August 28, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

BTW I'm feeling sorry for the poor Russian representative in the UN SC, trying to convince everyone that there's no Russian troops nor Kremlin involvement in Ukraine. And also asking the rest of the countries to not interfere in the internal business of Ukraine.

Basically all the rests of the countries' representatives, China included, were laughing at him.

[vilas 473]

BTW I'm feeling sorry for the poor Russian representative in the UN SC, trying to convince everyone that there's no Russian troops nor Kremlin involvement in Ukraine. And also asking the rest of the countries to not interfere in the internal business of Ukraine.

Basically all the rests of the countries' representatives, China included, were laughing at him.

i am sure 84% of Russians believe him

[mistyronin 1181]

i am sure 84% of Russians believe him

Well if any Russian watched the meeting and believe him, then they must think that all the world hate Russia and there is a world wide conspiracy against Russians.

If it continues in the same direction, Russia is gonna become a joke country like North Korea.

[jakerod 254]

I think you underestimate the Russian technology ( if even with old Stingers provided by the US in the 70's the Taliban were able to shoot down some US aircrafts these last years. And even the "poor" Serbia was able to shot down the most stealthy aircraft at that time, F117, during the NATO Bombings of Serbia; and with an old modified soviet system.

BTW the US would do all in its power to avoid a direct conflict with Russia, the stakes would be too high.

Yeah I know about all of that. Like I said, I only half want it so that Russia will shut its mouth about "not being there". I'm certainly not advocating that we do it. I realize that we will lose some people and civilians will probably die. Not to mention fighting that close to the border is probably not the smart anyway. I just want Russia to admit they are there and back the hell off.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Jakerod

[vilas 473]

Well if any Russian watched the meeting and believe him, then they must think that all the world hate Russia and there is a world wide conspiracy against Russians.

If it continues in the same direction, Russia is gonna become a joke country like North Korea.

NK is joke, they try to show their power having T-54 tanks and MiG-17, not T90 with GPS and SU-34 makes difference, NK is so small that few atomic bombs do the job in 1 second and NK doesn't exist , before they counter attack with their historical MiG-21 and MiG-17,

we have better armament in our museum than NK has in service, NK generally stopped in 1950s,

Russia is biggest country in the world, unable to disarm in such conditions, so Russia is not joke, also from Russia we buy gas and oil, Russia is biggest EU client,

NK is neither one nor second, noone would notice destruction of NK, apart from borderguards of SK

Edited August 28, 2014 by vilas

[Colossus 2]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2014/8/28/1409253179825/A-satellite-image-showing-015.jpg

That location wasn't actually too difficult to find. It's easier to see it in Google Earth, but here's the Google Maps version (although not with the correct angle) - https://goo.gl/maps/HXcOh (48°22'13.06" N 39°42'35.54" E)

[beastcat 14]

Another picture of the Pro-Ukraine/Anti-Russian demo in Mariupol

Edited August 28, 2014 by beastcat