Ukraine General

[jakerod 254]

I go the same way as mr. Obama and don't say about any reason of the crash as being 100% right and proven. And I don't understand why certain forum members behave like they have more info than US president and say rebels are guilty for sure.

The behavior of both the separatists and the Russians is leading them to believe that it was the separatists and/or the Russians. For example, please refer to Pufu's point B, C, and D. I personally wouldn't say that it couldn't have been the Ukrainians, either intentional or accidental, but most of the evidence is pointing at the pro-Russians.

[Dwarden 1124]

spooy_lynx while pro-Russian separatists already used grad against 1 or 2 cities and 3 villages, while attacking one guard spot they heavily damaged 2/3 of village households ...

while civilian in area

but you don't know about it ... you just accept one side news ... (while we read all 4 sides)

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

but against a fucked up person leading you like sheeps - putin-, and his corupt goverment that tolerates and supports a mass manipulation, censorship, and a primitive and intransparent justice system.

Just like the sheep in the west that believe anything that they get spoon fed by western media,politics and big bussiness! no difference. look at US media, UK media and EU media' its all the same. they been caught some many times distorting the truth,spewing propaganda or even not telling anything about something! Its all a game for these guys !and been going on for thousands of years!

[PuFu 4591]

I moved from my ipad to a proper keyboard laptop to reply to this sort of non-sense that is being written here...here it goes.

They already use heavy artillery and aviation against their own citizens and destroy lots of civil buildings. In their own territory.

Then, how can you know if no other Ukrainian missiles have been fired?

Then, if rebels really were operating Buk TEL in that district - they should see that the target moves towards Russia, uses high attitude and had big measures. The only military target Boeing can be mixed with is something like Il-76. It was not moving to Donetsk or Lugansk airport so it could not be distinguished as Kiev's cargo plane delivering ammo or food to surrounded UA troops. So why could rebels fire at such target, spend expencive missile if they have plenty of much more significant targets as Frogfoots and other ground attack planes used by Kiev widely?

1. As far as i can tell a buk can only see a blip and if it friendly or enemy. Nothing more nothing less, unless it's the whole weapon system deployed. So it is highly unlikely that they were able to tell anything about the size of it. Besides the same hight is used for cruise by other military jet aircraft as well.

2. Have you seen the separatist interviews? Most i have seen display a certain and constant aggressiveness, some are intoxicated, most are simple minded people, from their leaders to their foot soldiers.

Do you actually believe that between someone who is aware of what that radar signal is (that shows with an ID on both civilian and military radars), and the ones that aren't, but have a new toy received from daddy putin or captured, that they are etching to use in a show of force so they can brag about it (like they already did), the first are more likely to commit the error?

Do you really think the "operator" of that weapon could give a rats ass about the price of a missile. It is very unlikely he can count over 10 without help anyways.

There are plenty of such morons either in UA army or MVD/armed batallions - for example the commander of 24th mechanized brigade that fled the battle zone and left his soldiers without proper commanding during heavy battles. The result was total loss of order in the brigade. Pilot that just missed the taxiway during landing and destroyed his Su-25. Etc. And rebels perfectly know that since the beginning they have a little amount of support in EU. Shooting any civilian plane will destroy it at all - you don't need to be a genius to realise it, and rebels realise it too.

Do you know that in the military you need to follow a chain of command and have certain procedures set in place. Do you think it is the same for the pro-russian terrorists?

I go the same way as mr. Obama and don't say about any reason of the crash as being 100% right and proven. And I don't understand why certain forum members behave like they have more info than US president and say rebels are guilty for sure.

no shit you aren't: no one here is 100% sure of the real reasons. It's only you who is 100% sure it isn't russian fault or the pro-russian wankers.

Other than the fact that Obama has more information than you or I do, i'm sure that you and Obama are exactly the same: from the democratic ideology, to the skin tone, and beyond.

Just like the sheep in the west that believe anything that they get spoon fed by western media,politics and big bussiness! no difference. look at US media, UK media and EU media' its all the same. they been caught some many times distorting the truth,spewing propaganda or even not telling anything about something! Its all a game for these guys !and been going on for thousands of years!

While that might be right in some case, in the western you have:

1. independent journalism (not associated with a media outlet)

2. freedom of speech

3. a lot more transparent justice and commercial system

for every time the consumer media rolls out a story and that spreads between numerous news agencies, if that is a lie (born out of negligence, non-confirmed sources, or simply out of audience seeking - money) there will always be some that will take it apart rather sooner than later. The fact that there is independent journalism, even citizen journalism at times, that is not controlled by private commercial/business interests, is still a lot more than what happens in russian where news is concerned. (you don't need to believe me, just search about it, it's full of comprehensive and detailed stories about the way things are done).

[spooky lynx 73]

A. There was no reason to for the ukrainian military to shut down a plane that was known of, and was tracked on civilian and military radars across their air space.

At least one reason - to perform false flag operation for sake of making the whole Europe mad about 'evil rebels shooting down civil plane'. Current situation at the battle zone is very bad for Kiev - army and NG suffer heavy losses after insurgents got some artillery. European leaders start pointing at improper use of firepower by Kiev which leads to losses among civilians. They desperately need something to change the situation for better side for them. Shooting that Boeing was just a miracle.

B. The pro russia / putin separatists have been confirmed to be happy triggers, russian controlled media said they are in possesion of AAA weapon systems buk, high ranking leader have posted and then removed statements about shooting down a plane, believed to be a military transport, bragging about it, they have granted limited access to the crash site to the independent investigators, delaying them enough to be able to mess with possible evidence that could provide a better picture of what happened and who shoot it down. Moreso, the russian media is covering the so called "crash" (everyone but russian media is calling it a shoot down), mixing things like putins plane flying about with (some) facts.

DPR officials are happy to see international investigators but the latter ones, according to the words of DPR 'prime minister' are unsatisfied of security measures DPR can offer to them and still hadn't arrived in full numbers, although DPR officials are concerned about the bodies of the dead still lying at the ground.

BTW various VKontakte social network groups dedicated to Strelkov are... unofficial, so he has nothing to do with the people who maintain them and post or remove an info.

C. The said "officer" fled back to moscow after resigning

Pushilin had already long term conflict with other DPR officials, being suspected with connection with famous oligarch Rinat Akhmetov and sabotage of Donetsk defence. After arrival of Strelkov to Donetsk a number of DPR officials and commanders resigned and fled, but suddenly after it insurgents performed a number of successful operations and became much more effective force in general.

D. It is know fact that the border between russian and ukrain in the conflic zone is a very porous one, and that they have been supported with weapons ammo and alike by the russian goverment. (It is not like in ukrain everyone has a pkm in their closet). There has been numerous times when the so called separatist have crossed the border back into russia when things got uglier.

Why should they carry the weapons across the border if there are plenty of warestocks full of weapons of all kinds left from Soviet army in Ukraine? It's much easier to brong potent specialists who can seize that stocks or bribe Ukrainian servicemen who will give an access to stocks.

[scottmillerukctrg 12]

i've just found out that a brittish couple phoned their families in the UK during the flight telling them that there was "an aicraft watching us". i think thats the ukrainian su-25.

[ProfTournesol 956]

i've just found out that a brittish couple phoned their families in the UK during the flight telling them that there was "an aicraft watching us". i think thats the ukrainian su-25.

Source ?

[mistyronin 1181]

i've just found out that a brittish couple phoned their families in the UK during the flight telling them that there was "an aicraft watching us". i think thats the ukrainian su-25.

There is a crazy Spanish guy which say that he was an air controller in an Ukrainian tower ( although in Ukraine only Ukrainian citizens can be controllers ) that said in Twitter that two Su-25 were escorting the airliner, and according to him that was a normal thing. But that the plane was blown up by a ground-to-air missile. Basically he was trying to say that the pro-Russians tried to shoot down the fighters and touched the airliner by mistake.

He also said later that all that was an Ukrainian army coup to overthrow Porosehnko from power. He has been quoted this last weeks by RT as an air expert.

Yesterday he deleted his Twitter account. You can find the links in the thread.

[busso 10]

While it's obviously BS, Su-25 wouldn't be used for this type of mission anyway. This just confirms how clueless these so-called sources are.

[surpher 1]

There is a crazy Spanish guy which say that he was an air controller in an Ukrainian tower ( although in Ukraine only Ukrainian citizens can be controllers ) that said in Twitter that two Su-25 were escorting the airliner, and according to him that was a normal thing. But that the plane was blown up by a ground-to-air missile. Basically he was trying to say that the pro-Russians tried to shoot down the fighters and touched the airliner by mistake.

He also said later that all that was an Ukrainian army coup to overthrow Porosehnko from power. He has been quoted this last weeks by RT as an air expert.

Yesterday he deleted his Twitter account. You can find the links in the thread.

(StopFake) Spanish Flight Operations Officer from Kiev Informed about Ukrainian Planes Involved in Boeing Tragedy

[jakerod 254]

i've just found out that a brittish couple phoned their families in the UK during the flight telling them that there was "an aicraft watching us". i think thats the ukrainian su-25.

Are you sure you aren't thinking about the British couple who missed the flight?

Izzy Sim told the Daily Telegraph that there ‘must have been someone watching over’ them as they were switched to another flight, hours before the MH17 was allegedly shot down by a missile in Eastern Ukraine.

"'Somebody watching over us': British family cheats death on flight MH17" - Russia Today

[PuFu 4591]

At least one reason - to perform false flag operation for sake of making the whole Europe mad about 'evil rebels shooting down civil plane'. Current situation at the battle zone is very bad for Kiev - army and NG suffer heavy losses after insurgents got some artillery. European leaders start pointing at improper use of firepower by Kiev which leads to losses among civilians. They desperately need something to change the situation for better side for them. Shooting that Boeing was just a miracle.

So you would rather believe that a state, so from the government to the military, devise a plan to take down the first airliner that crosses the border, in order to bring NATO on their side once more? That with all eyes (satellites and alike) of every fucking agencies, including allies (nato) on that part of the world? really?

Do you actually think that make more sense than some fucking happy trigger drunk ridding that solo BUK, with no way to tell if that radar blip he's got is civilian or military would push a button, at a command of someone who is more of a merc than a proper commander?

REAAAAAAAALLLYYYY?

DPR officials are happy to see international investigators but the latter ones, according to the words of DPR 'prime minister' are unsatisfied of security measures DPR can offer to them and still hadn't arrived in full numbers, although DPR officials are concerned about the bodies of the dead still lying at the ground.

BTW various VKontakte social network groups dedicated to Strelkov are... unofficial, so he has nothing to do with the people who maintain them and post or remove an info.

Let's get something straight first: the so called DPR officials are not really officials to anyone but themselves, since DPR is a self-proclaimed state, unrecognized by anyone around the world, including russia.

Secondly, i don't believe a word that so called "prime minister" is saying, simply because of his past. So OSCE is a pussy and it is to blame now, isn't it?

Thirdly, the info from the same VK channel has been reliable and quoted before by most media outlets, including but only ITAR-TASS and RT, and thus tracked by "evil" wester media agencies, and now, all of a sudden, it isn't?

Do you happen to see the lack of logic here, or...?

Pushilin had already long term conflict with other DPR officials, being suspected with connection with famous oligarch Rinat Akhmetov and sabotage of Donetsk defence. After arrival of Strelkov to Donetsk a number of DPR officials and commanders resigned and fled, but suddenly after it insurgents performed a number of successful operations and became much more effective force in general.

more conspiracy theory without proof

Why should they carry the weapons across the border if there are plenty of warestocks full of weapons of all kinds left from Soviet army in Ukraine? It's much easier to brong potent specialists who can seize that stocks or bribe Ukrainian servicemen who will give an access to stocks.

1. where would that bribe money come from

2. where would those specialists come from. the pub?

Edited July 19, 2014 by PuFu

[Tonci87 163]

Am I the only one who thinks it is outright hillarious that Spooky stubornly refuses to answer why DPR officials bragged that they downed another plane only to delete everything after they realized what they had actually hit?

OK Spooky, don't believe all the other things pointing towards the separatists but I'm really curious how you will twist their own words.

[mistyronin 1181]

OK Spooky, don't believe all the other things pointing towards the separatists but I'm really curious how you will twist their own words.

That's an easy one: the US control the internet, so the CIA used their hackers to create that posts in the social media, and later delete them.

I've already seen that excuse in different Russian sites. I must recognize that Russian Propaganda services are really creative.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'm curious to know what are the US proof of what they said at the UN yesterday. I heard it may be satellite pictures of the missile launch.

[vilas 473]

I'm curious to know what are the US proof of what they said at the UN yesterday. I heard it may be satellite pictures of the missile launch.

AWACS flying on and on in eastern part of Poland maybe, cause US AWACS is our guest and fly on and on here, if AWACS can recognize and note launching rocket 1000 km away , i do not know

for sure US spy satelits can do many things which they do not want to let others know (that there are such possibilities)

Polish military also investigated - wheter not trained crew can operate BUK - yes, they can , so person who is not profesional operator can use BUK after short train , so separatists (in East army is not profesional but conscript, so everyone has army training and for sure among separatists there are people who served for example 1 year on BUK during conscript army service) can use it

Edited July 19, 2014 by vilas

[beastcat 14]

I'm curious to know what are the US proof of what they said at the UN yesterday. I heard it may be satellite pictures of the missile launch.

Its most likely just all of the points discussed here, just with more background checking, like tracking down and checking the sources for example.

I also love how Spooky Lynx completely ignored my post where I explained why he is full of BS. Yet he still ignores all the facts, while trying to convince everybody that everything is some kind of evil conspiracy by the whole world against russia. He is the perfect model of a PutinTV viewer.

Edited July 19, 2014 by beastcat

[ballistic09 241]

i've just found out that a brittish couple phoned their families in the UK during the flight telling them that there was "an aicraft watching us". i think thats the ukrainian su-25.

Su-25 Service ceiling: 7000m (22960ft) clean, 5000m (16000ft) with max weapons.

What were you saying about doing the math and your dad being an engineer... :rolleyes:

Edited July 19, 2014 by Ballistic09

[beastcat 14]

According to this the terrorists have transported at least 3 Buks back to Russia after they have shot down the plane.

[maturin 12]

Am I the only one who thinks it is outright hillarious that Spooky stubornly refuses to answer why DPR officials bragged that they downed another plane only to delete everything after they realized what they had actually hit?

OK Spooky, don't believe all the other things pointing towards the separatists but I'm really curious how you will twist their own words.

This is not actually the smoking gun that people think it is.

When a large enemy aircraft crashes in your territory, it is only natural to assume that your forces shot it down. If you know that you did not shoot it down, you will nevertheless claim to have shot it down.

The Taliban claim to have shot down every U.S. helicopter that ever crash-landed in Afghanistan for mechanical reasons.

Spooky is reaching the level of self-parody, however.

[beastcat 14]

According to

, the ukrainian SBU (Security Service of Ukraine) has evidence that the Buk missiles were supplied by russia and that the terrorists have gotten order to move them back to russia after the plane has been shot down.

Update:

This Buk has been filmed in the Belgorod Oblast in russia, coming from the Ukrainian border:

http://youtu.be/apMCDCYc3hk

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:01 ----------

According to welt.de the banks have closed the accounts of the victims, because the separatists have stolen the credit cards, documents and money of the crash victims from the crash site.

Also interesting is, that russia has banned a few US military officials from entry to russia, which is funny, because noone wants to go there anyway.

Edited July 19, 2014 by beastcat

[astral4eg 10]

1. Please tell me what are at least two russian media outlets that are independent of the goverment, because one thing i will never believe is the russian goverment, formed in vast majority by former communist party members that have been schooled into that ideology.

2. I never said i was blindly beliving everything i see on the western media. That being said, using basic logic, i see the following:

A. There was no reason to for the ukrainian military to shut down a plane that was known of, and was tracked on civilian and military radars across their air space.

no, idea is to blame separatists and Russia, and to crush separatists, and maybe that was the pretext for war.

B. The pro russia / putin separatists have been confirmed to be happy triggers, russian controlled media said they are in possesion of AAA weapon systems buk, high ranking leader have posted and then removed statements about shooting down a plane, believed to be a military transport, bragging about it, they have granted limited access to the crash site to the independent investigators, delaying them enough to be able to mess with possible evidence that could provide a better picture of what happened and who shoot it down. Moreso, the russian media is covering the so called "crash" (everyone but russian media is calling it a shoot down), mixing things like putins plane flying about with (some) facts.

i can creat same picture in 15 min, and here's this is about phone talks

C. The said "officer" fled back to moscow after resigning

this proves nothing.

So now you, spookie and other fanatics who for one reason or another could believe any sort of conspiracy, any sort of coincidence, but can't believe what the obvious? It has nothing to with loving your country here. Putin is not your country, and the whole world is not against you, but against a fucked up person leading you like sheeps - putin-, and his corupt goverment that tolerates and supports a mass manipulation, censorship, and a primitive and intransparent justice system.

Maybe it you crazy fanatic? a normal healthy person would not do such hasty conclusions :)

Why Ukrainian traffic manager sent a plane to north of the normal route, in the combat zone?

The western world (usa) tries to create a evil of russia because they want the ukraine to drift to the western world so that they privatize all their oil/gas industr.

The news told me a lot of bullshit before... like WMD's in Iraq and how 3 wtc towers collapsed when two planes hit them and probaly an other one crashing in to the pentagon but there never was any good footage of that allthough there are plenty camera's around there...

And who needs big war it is easy to guess, because the war for the US is business, so they lit Ukraine and created another problem region in the world

18.07.14

, good work militia. Edited July 20, 2014 by astral4eg

[ProfTournesol 956]

Funny that you still call actual Ukrainian governement "junta" (as every Russian propaganda media), while their president is democratically elected, when the so called separatists are mainly simply Russians born in Russia (even their so called prime minister doesn't hide it), or even mercenary from Ossetia or Chechenya, because they have hard time recruiting Ukrainian volunteers.

Edited July 20, 2014 by ProfTournesol
typo

[beastcat 14]

For christs sake, what is it with you russians? Astral4eg, all of the points and conspiracies you just said have been debunked and explained in this thread earlier, go back a few pages and stop talking crap.

And if you are to lazy too do that, take a read:

http://www.stopfake.org/tragediya-malazijskogo-avialajnera-analiz-gipotez/

http://www.stopfake.org/lozh-ukraina-sbila-grazhdanskij-boing-malaysia-airlines/

http://www.stopfake.org/lozh-ispanskij-dispetcher-rabotayushhij-v-kieve-soobshhil-o-prichastnosti-ukrainskih-samoletov-k-padeniyu-boinga/

Edited July 20, 2014 by beastcat

[spooky lynx 73]

So you would rather believe that a state, so from the government to the military, devise a plan to take down the first airliner that crosses the border, in order to bring NATO on their side once more? That with all eyes (satellites and alike) of every fucking agencies, including allies (nato) on that part of the world? really?

Do you actually think that make more sense than some fucking happy trigger drunk ridding that solo BUK, with no way to tell if that radar blip he's got is civilian or military would push a button, at a command of someone who is more of a merc than a proper commander?

REAAAAAAAALLLYYYY?

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/13500000/O-Rly-owls-13509350-282-282.jpg

With all eyes of every fukken agencies nobody gives a damn about hundreds of civilians killed by artillery and airstrikes performed by Kiev's forces. Nobody gave a damn about general 'brilliant' plan of maidanuts to opress the population of eastern regions demanding for federalisation and Russian language as second state one (quite normal things) by army and newly created nazional guard. So for me it's not surprise that just after the crash nobody even says about possible Ukrainian involvement but instead of it takes part in hysteria pointing on rebels and Russia.

Oh and seeing recent activity of Ukrainian army and rebels I'd say happy trigger drunks are in first one. 13 years ago they already got their victory upon moskali's Tu-154. And if you see how the battle group of 24th&79th brigades was vaporised by rebels' artillery being stationed in open field without any kind of fortification and then the commander of one brigade just ran away...

Let's get something straight first: the so called DPR officials are not really officials to anyone but themselves, since DPR is a self-proclaimed state, unrecognized by anyone around the world, including russia.

Secondly, i don't believe a word that so called "prime minister" is saying, simply because of his past. So OSCE is a pussy and it is to blame now, isn't it?

Thirdly, the info from the same VK channel has been reliable and quoted before by most media outlets, including but only ITAR-TASS and RT, and thus tracked by "evil" wester media agencies, and now, all of a sudden, it isn't?

Do you happen to see the lack of logic here, or...?

Let me remind you that some time ago so called United States of America officials were not really officials to anyone but themselves;)

Then, you may believe him or not, but he says what he says. And he is at that place, not somewhere in other country.

Then, for me and many others that VK channel never was reliable because it was known from the beginning that Strelkov does not maintain any social network account. So does not any of his nearest helpers.

more conspiracy theory without proof

It's long story to tell, you can watch it in various blogs I've provided here (some of their authors have connections with Novorossia authorities so they post various first-hand info).

1. where would that bribe money come from

2. where would those specialists come from. the pub?

You may don't know but there are already few businessmen that offered a reward for the head of fascist Oleg Lyashko, rather large reward BTW. So if you need money...

Oh and there is a strange thing named 'volunteer'. You know, some of them may be with rich combat experience. We had seen them with UNA-UNSO badges at our country some years before.