Ukraine General

[mr_centipede 31]

Politicians are opportunistic. They saw an opportunity and grabbed it, no more no less. Doesn't mean they planned it. Do you really thing some thing like this can be planned and executed in moments notice without any evidence that points back at them (Ukrainian). Off course the separatist also didn't plan for this to happened also. It was a mistake. But right now what need to happen is the separatist must hand over the crash site to the international investigation team

[ProfTournesol 956]

BBC news :

Michael Bociurkiw, a member of the OSCE team, said their access had been limited despite assurances from the regional rebel commander that they would be allowed into the site.

"A visibly intoxicated armed guard fired his rifle in the air when one of the observers walked out of the prescribed area," Mr Bociurkiw told journalists.

The 25 monitors withdrew after just over an hour, having been been unable to set up an access corridor for specialist teams to investigate the crash, he added.

[cozza 24]

Why the fuck would Ukraine shot down the plane? Flying across Ukraine from the west.

Do Pro-Russian separatists have transport planes? My guess..............no.

Is anyone supporting the separatists west of Ukraine? again. Probably no.

Sorry. But blaming Ukraine doesn't make sense. Its down right retarded.

Best thing Putin can do, is shut up.

[beastcat 14]

First and foremost, Syria only retaliated the bombing of Israel that wasn't after a war declaration.

But not for my main point. "a few mortar rounds landed on the wrong side of the border.", you say.

Now how about this. How about your neighboor taking his M4 carabine to put some rounds down the range, just to have fun. however as your neighboor is incapable of intelligent thought he shot your mother and your father in the head. twice. now, why would you get mad at him? after all, your neighbor just "shot a few 6.56 rounds on the wrong side of the fence".

and for fucks sake, the berkut loyal to the new government simply started to throw rocks at the russian embassy's windows way before that. that itself is already a good reason to take over ukraine.

Isn't trolling/flamebaiting against the rules?

P.S. Sure you may say I'm tinfoil hat and conspiracy theorist but for me this situation is too obvious. Even publishing exact info in Kiev's controlled (and then other western) media right after the crash about plane been shot down by insurgents (long before any official conclusion) says about it.

I think you crossed the line between tinfoil hat and *dont want to break the rules* a long time ago.

Edited July 19, 2014 by beastcat

[ProfTournesol 956]

Isn't trolling against the rules?

Ignoring them is the best way.

[vilas 473]

apart from terrorists who shot down the plane - how idiotic was making civil transport air corridor over area where there is war , sad stupid lack of imagination, planes should not fly over this area since half year

[beastcat 14]

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17: Why planes fly over war zones

[.Taffy 10]

Whilst it stands to reason that it is impractical to continually change flight corridors due to any and all conflicts in the world, in the case of Ukraine, where for the past 2 months or more the separatists have been actively targeting military aircraft, it would have been wise to make alterations and have civilian aircraft avoid the area, if not Ukraine altogether. Perhaps now, in light of this event, SOPs will change so that airlines will avoid areas where AA assets are actively operating.

[surpher 1]

(The Interpreter) RT “Covers†the Shooting Down of MH17

[Dwarden 1124]

Whilst it stands to reason that it is impractical to continually change flight corridors due to any and all conflicts in the world, in the case of Ukraine, where for the past 2 months or more the separatists have been actively targeting military aircraft, it would have been wise to make alterations and have civilian aircraft avoid the area, if not Ukraine altogether. Perhaps now, in light of this event, SOPs will change so that airlines will avoid areas where AA assets are actively operating.

they obtained he BUK around 20-27th last month

[vilas 473]

after Russian media (apart from other medias) had shown separatists info about getting BUK - intel guys should had told all responsible authorities to avoid that area,

if i were working in Intel and I would saw news that in war zone many planes are shot down and separatists/terrorists/freedom fighters (however anyone call them) have serious anti-aircraft weaponry, i should react and gave such info to air authorities

[.Taffy 10]

they obtained he BUK around 20-27th last month

I realise they only gained the capability to shoot down high level targets recently but I'm simply saying that in any conflict where AA assets are being put into use effectively against military aircraft, even if they only appear to be basic (ManPADs, AAA etc.) at that point it is not worth taking the risk with civilian air traffic.

[Xalteva 10]

Ok you asked a very good question ! why would a civilian plane fly over a dangerous area ... don't you think that they didn't think about this before ?

http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-flight-17-took-different-route-2014-7

[vilas 473]

on't you think that they didn't think about this before ?

1) because of nepotism on many institutions and in many places (work places, public institution) there are incompetent people taking high ranked positions

i know a lot of idiots that should not take high ranked job because they are relative to someone

2) business profits over human life risk, safety always cost money,

here it is 2 < profit , business over human life, happens in third world when workers die in poor condition manufacturer building collapse (production of clothes in Indonesia, Malesia, China and sorrounding areas, people buy "cheapest" t-shirt and in other part of globe other people died because of this t-shirt price )

[carlostex 38]

After i first saw news of this incident i immediately thought about how much theories Spooky Linx was gonna create to claim mother Russia's innocence. Because you know, Putin is such a bad ass, puts the whole world in line. Spooky Linx already talked about the CIA, i'm surprised he didn't mention the Mossad, 'cause the Israelis created this whole situation to depart the media and world attention from their army rolling up on Gaza...

EDIT: Another RT Journalist goes:

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/russia-today-london-correspondent-resigns-protest-disrespect-facts-over-malaysian-plane-crash

Edited July 19, 2014 by CarlosTex

[spooky lynx 73]

Why the fuck would Ukraine shot down the plane?

Why had it done this 13 years ago? The same reason may be at this time.

[beastcat 14]

Why had it done this 13 years ago? The same reason may be at this time.

What is wrong with you? All of the evidence points to the separatists, yet you refuse to accept it and resort to unqualified speculation.

The plane was shot down during military exercises, the pilot mistook it for a training target.

The plane right now was shot down deep into separatist territory next to the russian border, the separatists and russian news reported that a plane was shot down, but when it turned out they shot a boing suddenly they didn't have the weapons anymore and a huge campaign of deleting previous posts started.

But noooo, it must have been the Ukrainians, because they are evil nazi fashist jews!

[maturin 12]

Why had it done this 13 years ago? The same reason may be at this time.

The feverish mind of the conspiracy theorist does not believe in accidents, I see.

No really, why the fuck would Ukraine have deliberately shot down a Russian airliner full of Israeli citizens 13 years ago. Go ahead and tell us. We're listening and waiting for you to stop making chickenshit innuendos.

Make sure you include a discussion of the USSR's shadowy motives for shooting down that Korean airliner, too.

P.S. Sure you may say I'm tinfoil hat and conspiracy theorist but for me this situation is too obvious. Even publishing exact info in Kiev's controlled (and then other western) media right after the crash about plane been shot down by insurgents (long before any official conclusion) says about it.

Alright, then try this on for size. Instantly after the Trade Union building fire, the Russian media was in an uproar with exact information on how the vicious Ukrainian nazis had deliberately incinerated and murdered all of the protestors, long before there was any official conclusion. That says a lot about it, and its too obvious for me. Before this point, there was very little unrest of violence in the country to justify Russia's takeover of Crimea, and the world was united against Russian aggression. But unfortunately, 40 people had to die in Russia's ruthless provocation to change the narrative.

Edited July 19, 2014 by maturin

[spooky lynx 73]

What is wrong with you? All of the evidence points to the separatists, yet you refuse to accept it and resort to unqualified speculation.

There are no evidences except a couple of fake 'chats' between mysterious separatists and low quality video with some Buk TEL supposed to be towed near the suspected crash area. At the same time Ukrainian Buks are deployed in this area too (particularly at Slaviansk) - complete complex not lonely TEL. I can make dozen of videos showing a dialog between SBU agents talking about anything I want and upload it to youtube. It won't make it serious evidence.

So still there are no officially studied data from civil/military radars or satellites. No recorders recovered and studied. No conclusion from any aviation commitee. So I ask you, dear junior forums member beastcat who joined us not so long before this tragedy, are you clairvoyant or just troll instigating anti-Russian and anti-Donbass hysteria across the web? Or maybe you have access to classified CIA report proving guilt of insurgents?

---------- Post added at 19:38 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ----------

The feverish mind of the conspiracy theorist does not believe in accidents, I see.

No really, why the fuck would Ukraine have deliberately shot down a Russian airliner full of Israeli citizens 13 years ago. Go ahead and tell us. We're listening and waiting for you to stop making chickenshit innuendos

If glorious Ukrainian AA servicemen commited such mistake at peaceful time, nothing can stop to commit the same mistake this time during the war. Moreover if you see the amount of warmongering Ukrainian hysteria crying about hordes of Moskali ready and willing to invade Ridna Nenk, regular reports about detaining GRUFSB agents and know how many totally incompetent personell were drafted or volunteered in UA army - the probability of mistaken shooting at the plane is even more than 13 years ago.

[beastcat 14]

There are no evidences except a couple of fake 'chats' between mysterious separatists and low quality video with some Buk TEL supposed to be towed near the suspected crash area. At the same time Ukrainian Buks are deployed in this area too (particularly at Slaviansk) - complete complex not lonely TEL. I can make dozen of videos showing a dialog between SBU agents talking about anything I want and upload it to youtube. It won't make it serious evidence.

So still there are no officially studied data from civil/military radars or satellites. No recorders recovered and studied. No conclusion from any aviation commitee. So I ask you, dear junior forums member beastcat who joined us not so long before this tragedy, are you clairvoyant or just troll instigating anti-Russian and anti-Donbass hysteria across the web? Or maybe you have access to classified CIA report proving guilt of insurgents?

I'm sorry, but are you by any chance retarded?

First of all, Ukraine has been intercepting phone calls from the beginning of the conflict and they all turned out to be true, second of all, even if what you say is true and not another russian lie, Slowyansk is still 120km away from the place where the plane was shot down. The Buk has a range of maximum 35km, the nearest front is about 70km away. Also, russian news and the rebels proudly announced that they have shot down a plane, thinking it was an AN-26 and immidietly started trying to delete all evidence after they found it was a Boing 777. Also your separatist friends refuse to give acces to the crash site for the OSCE monitors, all while stealing every valuable they can find. Are they maybe hiding something? Shouldn't that ring all of your conspiracy junky alarm bells?

But no, all of that must be fake, Channel One told me the Ukrainians tried to kill Putin, that must be it.

Oh and don't drag me into your stupid conspiracy theories.

Edited July 19, 2014 by beastcat

[maturin 12]

The incident in question occurred during naval air defense exercises. That is, when multiple SAMs were being fired at simulated targets. It is obvious how errors can occur in that case.

But do you really think Ukraine would have shot at a plane in their own territory, flying towards Russia in a situation where no other Ukrainian missiles have been fired? For the rebel's to have accidentally downed the plane requires only a momentary error under pressure--they have a clear and rational motive of defending their airspace.

For Ukraine to have fired in error, someone needs to be a complete moron. For Ukraine to have tried to conduct a provocation by murdering over 100 citizens of NATO countries, including a senator, they would have to be morons. For the rebels to have done it, they need only have been acting rationally, and made a bad call.

Anyways, the President of the United States does not go on the stage and state that the missile had been launched from rebel-held areas without looking at the satellite footage first. We just haven't seen it yet. I know that certain presidents go on TV and call black white and describe active duty Russian servicemen "local self defense forces," so this dynamic may be hard to accept for some.

[mistyronin 1181]

But it's not that complicated, there have already been:

- One high ranking pro-Russian leader that fled to Moscow and resigned the day after the incident.

- A lot of social media info from the pro-Russian side when they though they have shoot down an Ukrainian aircraft ( most of them deleted after a few hours ).

- Putin himself being the first to know about that success and informing even Barack Obama.

- Russian emissary in the UN Security Council, deflecting any kind of investigation; and saying that the responsible is not who shoot down the plane, but who allowed the planes to fly.

- Russian public media creating all kind of crazy theories one after the other, and delegating the piece of news in the central pages, not the main one.

- The pro-Russians don't allowing the OSCE monitors to visit the crash site properly.

It was an extreme criminal mistake of the pro-Russians supported by Russia, that even took the amazing Russia propaganda machine off, and even if they tried to cover it up later, they have not been able and now are deflecting.

[cozza 24]

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-of-plane-crash/story-fnizu68q-1226994524959

Hope someone shoots him.

Serious I do.

[PuFu 4591]

you too.

take the information in only one side of the conflict is of course very objectively

looked muddy photography and video, made by "maidan studio", and made conclusions

turn on u brain and think who and what does it do

1. Please tell me what are at least two russian media outlets that are independent of the goverment, because one thing i will never believe is the russian goverment, formed in vast majority by former communist party members that have been schooled into that ideology.

2. I never said i was blindly beliving everything i see on the western media. That being said, using basic logic, i see the following:

A. There was no reason to for the ukrainian military to shut down a plane that was known of, and was tracked on civilian and military radars across their air space.

B. The pro russia / putin separatists have been confirmed to be happy triggers, russian controlled media said they are in possesion of AAA weapon systems buk, high ranking leader have posted and then removed statements about shooting down a plane, believed to be a military transport, bragging about it, they have granted limited access to the crash site to the independent investigators, delaying them enough to be able to mess with possible evidence that could provide a better picture of what happened and who shoot it down. Moreso, the russian media is covering the so called "crash" (everyone but russian media is calling it a shoot down), mixing things like putins plane flying about with (some) facts.

C. The said "officer" fled back to moscow after resigning

D. It is know fact that the border between russian and ukrain in the conflic zone is a very porous one, and that they have been supported with weapons ammo and alike by the russian goverment. (It is not like in ukrain everyone has a pkm in their closet). There has been numerous times when the so called separatist have crossed the border back into russia when things got uglier.

So now you, spookie and other fanatics who for one reason or another could believe any sort of conspiracy, any sort of coincidence, but can't believe what the obvious? It has nothing to with loving your country here. Putin is not your country, and the whole world is not against you, but against a fucked up person leading you like sheeps - putin-, and his corupt goverment that tolerates and supports a mass manipulation, censorship, and a primitive and intransparent justice system.

@the one with the embassy argument: ask your "engineer" daddy to slap you hard for such a puerile argument..

[spooky lynx 73]

But do you really think Ukraine would have shot at a plane in their own territory, flying towards Russia in a situation where no other Ukrainian missiles have been fired? For the rebel's to have accidentally downed the plane requires only a momentary error under pressure--they have a clear and rational motive of defending their airspace.

They already use heavy artillery and aviation against their own citizens and destroy lots of civil buildings. In their own territory.

Then, how can you know if no other Ukrainian missiles have been fired?

Then, if rebels really were operating Buk TEL in that district - they should see that the target moves towards Russia, uses high attitude and had big measures. The only military target Boeing can be mixed with is something like Il-76. It was not moving to Donetsk or Lugansk airport so it could not be distinguished as Kiev's cargo plane delivering ammo or food to surrounded UA troops. So why could rebels fire at such target, spend expencive missile if they have plenty of much more significant targets as Frogfoots and other ground attack planes used by Kiev widely?

For Ukraine to have fired in error, someone needs to be a complete moron. For Ukraine to have tried to conduct a provocation by murdering over 100 citizens of NATO countries, including a senator, they would have to be morons. For the rebels to have done it, they need only have been acting rationally, and made a bad call.

There are plenty of such morons either in UA army or MVD/armed batallions - for example the commander of 24th mechanized brigade that fled the battle zone and left his soldiers without proper commanding during heavy battles. The result was total loss of order in the brigade. Pilot that just missed the taxiway during landing and destroyed his Su-25. Etc. And rebels perfectly know that since the beginning they have a little amount of support in EU. Shooting any civilian plane will destroy it at all - you don't need to be a genius to realise it, and rebels realise it too.

Anyways, the President of the United States does not go on the stage and state that the missile had been launched from rebel-held areas without looking at the satellite footage first. We just haven't seen it yet. I know that certain presidents go on TV and call black white and describe active duty Russian servicemen "local self defense forces," so this dynamic may be hard to accept for some.

I go the same way as mr. Obama and don't say about any reason of the crash as being 100% right and proven. And I don't understand why certain forum members behave like they have more info than US president and say rebels are guilty for sure.

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:32 ----------

- The pro-Russians don't allowing the OSCE monitors to visit the crash site properly.

Funny thing that pro-Russians say the opposite - OSCE observers don't hurry to arrive at the crash site although A. Boroday noted that they (DPR officials) were asked by foreign experts not to touch anything at the crash site, so he warned that because of it the bodies of fallen are rotting at the high day temperature. And he asked investigators to hurry and start their duties as fast as possible to prevent complete rotting of the bodies.

MistyRonin, if you understand Russian or have some Russian speakers around - here's fresh interview of DPR official about current situation.