papanowel 120 Posted July 17, 2014 Why would the Ukrainian army (even if not that competent) shoot an anti air missile if there is no airborne threat by pro Russians or Russians ? + why would they shoot an aircraft that was flying from the west to the east... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted July 17, 2014 Why would the Ukrainian army (even if not that competent) shoot an anti air missile if there is no airborne threat by pro Russians or Russians ? They wouldn't, in fact the Ukrainian Army know exactly all the planes flying over Ukraine. And wouldn't shoot a plane that come from the Netherlands. So that leaves the ball in the Pro-Russian/Russian roof and seems that the pro-Russian say that they didn't have such a sophisticated systems so... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted July 17, 2014 Why would the Ukrainian army (even if not that competent) shoot an anti air missile if there is no airborne threat by pro Russians or Russians ? That's the reason: Ukrainian Ministry of internal affairs asks NATO to start land operation against separatists. As I said earlier, it's all about making NATO to step on. Edit: here are some photos from crash site. Warning, some of them are NSFW. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted July 17, 2014 That's the reason: Ukrainian Ministry of internal affairs asks NATO to start land operation against separatists.As I said earlier, it's all about making NATO to step on. Come on, they aren't that stupid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted July 17, 2014 That's the reason: Ukrainian Ministry of internal affairs asks NATO to start land operation against separatists.As I said earlier, it's all about making NATO to step on. Then why Putin was in such a hurry to inform Obama before even details were known? :rolleyes: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted July 17, 2014 Come on, they aren't that stupid. They are even more stupid than you may think. That's why they order to disperse brutally anti-war protest even in Lviv, when mothers of drafted soldiers tried to stop dispatch of their sons to the battle zone. Then why Putin was in such a hurry to inform Obama before even details were known? :rolleyes: Advancing strike in the information war. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted July 17, 2014 They are even more stupid than you may think. That's why they order to disperse brutally anti-war protest even in Lviv, when mothers of drafted soldiers tried to stop dispatch of their sons to the battle zone. Yeah, a shame that Ukrainian Army soldiers in the area are volunteers. On the other hand, I wouldn't talk about how armies tread the mother of their soldiers... It would bring proven memories of when Russian soldiers shoot Russian mothers that tried to recover the corpses of their sons in Chechnya. Reported by some Russian soldiers... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted July 17, 2014 Yeah, a shame that Ukrainian Army soldiers in the area are volunteers. They are documentary voulnteers, although de-facto many of them signed contract after threat of jail or revenge to their families. Also some of them had to be decomissioned long time ago but still given no order so they have to stay in army. True volunteers are in various territorial batallions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rakowozz 14 Posted July 17, 2014 This is terrible... All evidence points to the pro-russian side, but hopefully that doesn't stimulate more anger and war. Whoever it was, what the f***. Someone consciously fired that missile... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted July 17, 2014 They are documentary voulnteers, although de-facto many of them signed contract after threat of jail or revenge to their families. Also some of them had to be decomissioned long time ago but still given no order so they have to stay in army. True volunteers are in various territorial batallions. Then why my Ukrainian friends and their families, are not in the army, and have not been threatened to join it... In fact one of them announced that he has no interest in joining the army, and no issue. All evidence points to the pro-russian side, but hopefully that doesn't stimulate more anger and war. Whoever it was, what the f***. Someone consciously fired that missile... Seems that was a Russian mistake, and Putin is trying to solve the situation. Probably it will end only in a few international condemns and some more sanctions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) It seems that one of the separatist leaders published this afternoon a note saying that they shot down another An 26:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswdhTUCQAEcM2r.jpg (105 kB) Russian guy on the BBC said LifeNews had published that story on there website earlier today, he said it quickly got taken down. Edited July 17, 2014 by surpher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted July 17, 2014 BBC live feed : A tweet (in Russian) from a key Twitter account used by pro-Russian separatists, in which they claim to have captured a Buk surface-to-air missile system, has now been deleted, BBC Monitoring observes. Ukrainians say the Malaysian plane could have been downed with a Buk, but pro-Russian rebels have now denied they have it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted July 17, 2014 A tweet already deleted from Twitter still in Google's cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3ANF6E5FCKFNEJ%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fdnrpress%2Fstatus%2F483248037629018112 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) Then why my Ukrainian friends and their families, are not in the army, and have not been threatened to join it... In fact one of them announced that he has no interest in joining the army, and no issue. They are just lucky and hadn't reached their turn. I'd like you to advice them leave Ukraine. Here's the record of witness of crash (in Russian) - he says he noted three explosions - one before plane crashed. Then he saw two men with parachutes - one was flying normally, other was flying too fast (seems his chute was damaged). Also he saw the fighter plane that flew towards Debaltsevo town from the place of crash. For Spanish-speakers: https://twitter.com/spainbuca/status/489813837013848065 Really why? Edited July 17, 2014 by Spooky Lynx Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted July 17, 2014 Spooky here in this Thread we have proven more than once that your russian propaganda is full of lies. How you can still blindly believe everything they say is beyond me.... Only one side was shooting at airplanes so far and this time they made a grave misstake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted July 17, 2014 Spooky here in this Thread we have proven more than once that your russian propaganda is full of lies. How you can still blindly believe everything they say is beyond me....Only one side was shooting at airplanes so far and this time they made a grave misstake. What lies? Super-modern Russian MANPADS which were already exported to various countries? Or do you think that Spanish traffic controller is FSB agent? For those who think I'm stupid propagandist here's one mor photo - Ukrainian army Buk AA system being transported near Slaviansk. So UA army has some potent AA systems in this battle zone too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) For Spanish-speakers: https://twitter.com/spainbuca/status/489813837013848065 Really why? I'm almost bilingual in Spanish ( I lived there for a lot of years ). And what this guy is saying is that before the plane was shoot down by a ground missile, two Ukraine fighters were flying nearby. But he affirms that it was shoot down from the ground, probably by a military force not Ukrainian not pro-Russians ( so he is pointing Russia directly ). So he tries to expose that probably the Russians were trying to shoot down the fighters, and shoot the civilian plane by mistake. Tweet: El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares, The plane B777 flew escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter planes minuts before disappear from the radar. Tweet Sà las autoridades de kiev, quieren decir la verdad, esta recogido 2 cazas volaron muy cerca minutos antes , no lo derribo un caza If the Kiev authorities want to say the truth, it's recorded that 2 fighter planes flown nearby a few mins before. It was not shoot down by a fighter plane. Edited July 17, 2014 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted July 17, 2014 What lies? Super-modern Russian MANPADS which were already exported to various countries?Or do you think that Spanish traffic controller is FSB agent? For those who think I'm stupid propagandist here's one mor photo - Ukrainian army Buk AA system being transported near Slaviansk. So UA army has some potent AA systems in this battle zone too. Dude just re-read the thread and stop believing everything you see on Ru TV Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted July 17, 2014 One more strange thing in this crash: all the flights during 14/07, 15/07, 16/07 went way more to the west. http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/signor_antonio/69093926/49948/49948_original.jpg (356 kB) http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/signor_antonio/69093926/50899/50899_original.jpg (392 kB) http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/signor_antonio/69093926/51077/51077_original.jpg (355 kB) http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/signor_antonio/69093926/50624/50624_original.jpg (333 kB) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Colossus 2 Posted July 17, 2014 While I think Spooky has jumped the gun, we honestly don't know who fired what, but it seems clear that this wasn't an accident due to technical issues with the plane. Someone fucked up.. big time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted July 17, 2014 While I think Spooky has jumped the gun, we honestly don't know who fired what, but it seems clear that this wasn't an accident due to technical issues with the plane. Someone fucked up.. big time. Spooky linked tweets of a Spanish Civilian air controller now working in Ukraine. His words are quite interesting ( the controller ones ). He says that the plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighters when someone ( the controller points Russian Army ), tried to shoot down the fighters and blow up the civilian. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted July 17, 2014 Dude just re-read the thread and stop believing everything you see on Ru TV Don't want to upset you but I don't watch it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_centipede 31 Posted July 17, 2014 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-28354787 from the Live Text part: 19:28: Flight recorders have been found at the crash site, Konstantin Knyrik, a spokesman for the pro-Russian rebels, has told Interfax news agency. Earlier reports quoted rebels as saying they intended to send the flight recorders to Moscow for checking. Why the FDR need to be sent to Moscow? Shouldn't it be in Ukraine jurisdiction? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfire257 3 Posted July 17, 2014 Or ideally a neutral country with no involvement in any of this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted July 17, 2014 It seems that pro-Russians doesn't allow any journalist close to the crash zone... If it was done by Ukraine they would be asking all the world to watch it, not hide it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
