Ukraine General

[vilas 473]

another difference is that those whom Quadafii killed WERE NOT demanding to change borders and join other country < this is most important here, those separatists want to change borders of one country and build imperliasm of other country which leader behave like Hitler and which has imperialistic history , this makes difference

if those people only fought against joining EU and political correctness i would support them with all my heart, but they fight to make Putin empire (which in result may be danger to Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia etc.)

this makes very big difference after anexation of Crimea and lies of Putin "no our soldiers" "we will not anex Crimea" etc. i do not belive Putin any single good intention, he is imperialist who may support terrorism in other countries

Edited May 26, 2014 by vilas

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

he is imperialist who may support terrorism in other countries

,You mean like Obama,or any off those clowns that came before him or gone come behind him? because those are the real supporters of terrorisme in the world. and putin, may or may not be, who knows.

and keep blaming Russia and putin for every thing,keep spinning that propaganda bottle guys!

So if you bow to the west you can do pretty much what you want,kill innocent civilians, np go ahead, terrorise the rest into submittion np, the UN keeps silent,every western nation wont say anything,and offcourse the US wont say anything, but when you dont scratch their back,your a dictator,a terrorist, a imperial overlord,etc etc,and they will destroy not only you,but the whole poppulation and your country,and to puth a other notch in their belt,not to mention the enormous profits friendly companys make when they go in there(weapons,infrastructure,fuel and power, ore's etc)

See where i wanna go with this?

[mistyronin 1181]

,You mean like Obama,or any off those clowns that came before him or gone come behind him? because those are the real supporters of terrorisme in the world. and putin, may or may not be, who knows.

and keep blaming Russia and putin for every thing,keep spinning that propaganda bottle guys!

How many countries has Obama invaded and annexed to the USA?

You want to talk about Chechnya? Abkhazia and South Ossetia? Crimea?

I'm not saying that all the people in the USA Gov. are saints, but nothing compared to the autocratic and expansionist Putin...

USA and Russia may be the world's actual big "evils", but I see clearly which one is the worst by far according to my set of moral and values ( which is mainly the UN Declaration of Human Rights ).

---------- Post added at 01:43 ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 ----------

How can 35 people be killed by a single RPG that hit's their truck?

Even terrorist with a vest full of explosives aren't able to kill so many people in a row ( basically because the bodies would act as a "wall" ). For instance: October 2013 Volgograd bus bombing

On the other hand, what did they expect? those "self-defense" that take weapons and terrorize the population, even attacking an airport full of Ukrainian soldiers...

( RT ) Scores killed in Donetsk as grenade hits truck carrying wounded - reports

Self-defense of Donetsk says that at least 35 people have been killed when a rocket propelled grenade hit their truck transporting the wounded from the airport area where the Kiev troops are waging an ‘anti-terror operation.’

[spooky lynx 73]

Because it isn´t the same thing.

Qaddafi used it´s military against unarmed civilian protesters. Here is see armed forces engaging heavily armed gunmen who seized a public building.

I may post some photos of 'heavily armed gunmen' both male and female who hadn't any weapons but died from the fire of Ukrainian armed troops in Donetsk and Slaviansk yesterday (but won't do it due to forum rules) to prove you are wrong. And I'd remind that using army against armed protesters in Libya and Syria also was called a crime and caused bombings. Oh I forgot those protesters were welcomed by EU and deserve to be respected, unlike those in Donbass... Double standards are so double standards...

BTW using unguided rockets against 'gunmen' within large city isn't good idea at all.

another difference is that those whom Quadafii killed WERE NOT demanding to change borders and join other country < this is most important here, those separatists want to change borders of one country and build imperliasm of other country which leader behave like Hitler and which has imperialistic history , this makes difference

They just wanted to overthrow legitimate internationally recognized government, and it's just a childish prank, yes? And now in fact they divided a country into several semi-independent areas ruled by tribes, sure that's not change of the borders...FPDR

[vilas 473]

BTW using unguided rockets against 'gunmen' within large city isn't good idea at all.

how about bombing cities in Georgia, bombing cities in Chechnya ?

[lesscubes 1]

You can't really justify something so clearly illegal as annexing a sovereign nation's territory with a simple "But the (insert whoever you don't like here) did it." Especially when the quoted conflicts are so far from being direct analogues of the conflict in Ukraine.

[Tonci87 163]

I may post some photos of 'heavily armed gunmen' both male and female who hadn't any weapons but died from the fire of Ukrainian armed troops in Donetsk and Slaviansk yesterday (but won't do it due to forum rules) to prove you are wrong. And I'd remind that using army against armed protesters in Libya and Syria also was called a crime and caused bombings. Oh I forgot those protesters were welcomed by EU and deserve to be respected, unlike those in Donbass... Double standards are so double standards...

BTW using unguided rockets against 'gunmen' within large city isn't good idea at all.

They just wanted to overthrow legitimate internationally recognized government, and it's just a childish prank, yes? And now in fact they divided a country into several semi-independent areas ruled by tribes, sure that's not change of the borders...FPDR

The only civilian casualties I have seen that are directly inflicted by the Ukrainina military were civilians caught in the crossfire. Either because they didn´t stay away from the fight (what any sane civilian person would normaly do), were used as shields by Separatists, or actively tried to disrupt the Operations of the Ukrainian military (during a firefight, you can´t get any more stupid than that.)

So far the Ukrainian military is very carefull not to harm any unarmed civilians.

And again you fail to see the difference between this situation and every other that has happened in the last decade.

In Lybia things started with peacefull protests that went on for weeks. They escalated as security forces used more and more violence against the protesters, up to the point where the army started killing them.

Here we have no political process prior to the uprising

Suddenly people with guns appeared and started to take over buildings, abduct and kill people.

And that makes this whole thing unlegitimate in my eyes.

And the fact that you still don´t understand that any Government controlled Russian news outlet is part of one giant propaganda machine that spreads lies and fear 24/7 is absurd.

And RPG killing 35 People? That must be a new record!

That old pathetic fuck asking them to make no prisoners is disgusting. If you are so eager for killing then go and do it yourself.

And did that civilian just tell that the Separatists set a guy on fire who had already thrown away his weapon, and then shot him?

[ProfTournesol 956]

KYIV, May 25 /Ukrinform/. 57.3 % of Ukrainians voted for candidate Petro Poroshenko in the presidential elections, according to the results of the Ukrainian television exit poll conducted by TNS at the order of television channels 1+1, ICTV, Ukraina and Inter.

12.4% supported the former prime minister, leader of the All-Ukrainian Union Batkivshchyna Yulia Tymoshenko.

The three leaders are also head of the Radical Party Oleh Liashko - 8.7% of voters, Anatoliy Hrytsenko with 6.0% and Serhiy Tihipko with 4.4% of voters.

So long ! the pathetic Moscow rethoric about Nazis taking control of Ukraine.

[Tonci87 163]

So long ! the pathetic Moscow rethoric about Nazis taking control of Ukraine.

Exactly what I expected. Usually the mayority of the People doesn´t want radicals in power because they are bad for a peacefull life. And usually they show that when they vote (If the elections aren´t rigged, like they were in the Referendum in east Ukraine)

[surpher 1]

(stopfake.org) Russian First channel informed of Yarosh Victory in Ukraine’s Presidential Elections - website is slow today

On 25 May, the day of the Ukrainian presidential elections, Russian First channel displayed in its evening edition an alleged screenshot of the Ukrainian CEC (Central Election Commission) website; according to that image, the election is being won by Dmitro Yarosh, the leader of the “Right Sectorâ€.

[astral4eg 10]

Hello

little about the elections in Ukraine

pict1 pict2

Donetsk.A truck with corpses 27.05.2014

And about stopfake.org

WHOIS information for stopfake.org:

Creation Date: 2014-03-02T15:02:09Z

Updated Date: 2014-05-02T03:45:14Z

Registry Expiry Date: 2015-03-02T15:02:09Z

Sponsoring Registrar:Internet Invest, Ltd. dba Imena.ua (R1723-LROR)

Registrant Street: Gaidara, 50 st.

Registrant City:Kyiv

Registrant Country:UA

another Ukrainian anti russian site...

because information on this site not true

Edited May 27, 2014 by astral4eg

[surpher 1]

Hello

little about the elections in Ukraine

pict1 pict2

Nice try :rolleyes: but the image was debunked two days ago.

[vilas 473]

Hello

another Ukrainian anti russian site...

because information on this site not true

yeee Russian propaganda doesn't lie ?

yesterday our Polish journalists found book about "history" promoted by Russian Ministry of Culture,

this book says that Katyn was made by Germans and Poles mass murdered Russians after war...

so they deny Stalin and NKVD crimes and make victim from killer, and killer from victim,

Russian gov (Ministry of Culture) promotes book that deny Katyn crime and call it was not NKVD but "fascists" (SS ? )

maybe in few years in Putin full of lies country we gonna read that WW2 started in 1941 and there was never invasion on Poland in 1939, on Finland in 1940, and NKVD was peacefull organization and in Checheny nooone died (while Russians killed 100 thousands of Chechen), there were not Tatars deportations in 1940s , Stalin was good nice man and Siberia was holidays place when people were travelling to see nature etc.

even in plane crash in 2010 Russian "investigators" lied, they said that drunken General messed pilots so plane crash happened, while in remains of his body no alcohol was found, so Russia lied that he was drunk etc. etc. etc.

and those "fascists" on Ukraine, while biggest fascists are those who fulfill encyclopedical definition of fascism "cult of leader, militarism from youth, one-man planning etc"

Edited May 27, 2014 by vilas

[astral4eg 10]

yeee Russian propaganda doesn't lie ?

Yes, some of the media a little lie, but the media in Ukraine lies much more.

For example about the events in Odessa, Ukrainian media said do not know, "they burned themselves", although everyone knows that they were nationalists from the right sector

yesterday our Polish journalists found book about "history" promoted by Russian Ministry of Culture,

this book says that Katyn was made by Germans and Poles mass murdered Russians after war...

so they deny Stalin and NKVD crimes and make victim from killer, and killer from victim,

maybe in few years in Putin full of lies country we gonna read that WW2 started in 1941 and there was never invasion on Poland in 1939, on Finland in 1940, and NKVD was peacefull organization and in Checheny nooone died (while Russians killed 100 thousands of Chechen), there were not Tatars deportations in 1940s , Stalin was good nice man and Siberia was holidays place when people were travelling to see nature etc.

ha ha, funny. Everything has a cause and effect, try to explore the matter in more detail not from western sources. And yes, i live in Siberia ;)

proof? year publication of the book?

You think templates. in WW2 was a different time. Yes USSR tried not to discuss uncomfortable topics for themselves, but so does any country.

even in plane crash in 2010 Russian "investigators" lied, they said that drunken General messed pilots so plane crash happened, while in remains of his body no alcohol was found, so Russia lied that he was drunk etc. etc. etc.

official position of the Russian - plane crash causes pilot error.

Why do you hate so much Russian? what they did to you?

Why is it always to blame for everything Russian?

Why not blame the British who gave the Indians smallpox-infected blankets and clothing, or Japanes or most aggressive country,? Probably because that the western media are very good at lying

And here's an

how to works the western media

let's remember the Medieval period of the Inquisition and other European joys, yes, early-mid 20th century was a terrible time.

Edited May 28, 2014 by astral4eg

[jakerod 254]

Why do you hate so much Russian? what they did to you?

Why is it always to blame for everything Russian?

I don't even know how that is a question. Poland-Russian relations

But to stay ON TOPIC, fairly sure both sides are lying at least a little bit. I, personally, just don't trust Russia after all of Putin's lies about Crimea plus there was the invasion of Georgia...Chechnya... and probably a few I don't remember or know about (and the Cold War).

[Tonci87 163]

Yes, some of the media a little lie, but the media in Ukraine lies much more.

For example about the events in Odessa, Ukrainian media said do not know, "they burned themselves", although everyone knows that they were nationalists from the right sector

Yes, Ukrainian media lies too. Both Ukraine and Russia are involved in this mess and so you can´t trust their media to be honest.

(BTW the guys in Odessa did technically burn themselves since the Molotovs that started the fire were thrown by them, and way to close to their own building. It was all very visible in the livestream. The other stuff that happened afterwards, were people killed and beat the ones trying to escape is of course very bad and I hope that those people get jailed rather sooner than later. But the initial fire came indeed from the pro Russians themselves.....)

[astral4eg 10]

I don't even know how that is a question. Poland-Russian relations

But to stay ON TOPIC, fairly sure both sides are lying at least a little bit. I, personally, just don't trust Russia after all of Putin's lies about Crimea plus there was the invasion of Georgia...Chechnya... and probably a few I don't remember or know about (and the Cold War).

It's not quite right, in 2008 Georgia attacked South Ossetia, Russia sent troops into South Ossetia to protect them, and ending war in 5 days. But it's been 6 years and many think so that first attacked Russia, west media are working excellent :)

Yes, Ukrainian media lies too. Both Ukraine and Russia are involved in this mess and so you can´t trust their media to be honest.

(BTW the guys in Odessa did technically burn themselves since the Molotovs that started the fire were thrown by them, and way to close to their own building. It was all very visible in the livestream. The other stuff that happened afterwards, were people killed and beat the ones trying to escape is of course very bad and I hope that those people get jailed rather sooner than later. But the initial fire came indeed from the pro Russians themselves.....)

good try, bot this not true.. good Nazis help fallen from windows , link2

Edited May 28, 2014 by astral4eg

[vilas 473]

Yes, some of the media a little lie, but the media in Ukraine lies much more.

ha ha, funny. Everything has a cause and effect, try to explore the matter in more detail not from western sources. And yes, i live in Siberia ;)

proof? year publication of the book?.

and if you asked before about MY personal history with Russian state or USSR than:

- my family lost all in Sept 1939, confiscated 6 hectares (if documents from 1930 are correct, but according ot other documents there is 5 hectars more, i have no idea, was it 6 or 11 , but something like this ) of land and house, near Solchennyky/Eishyshky, now border of Lithuania and Belarus, there was my mother-family property, in house of my grand grand mother now there is Belarussian school,

- sister of my grandmother dead as small girl during "travel" to Siberia from Grodno-area, her second sister sent to Siberia survived and she survied, but we could return to Poland in 1958 from prisons cause father of my mother was held there till 1958, because he was Polish railway officer (chief of Station and surrounding railway area) before war, if he was officer of Police or Army not of Railway, probably he would be dead too and my mother would never be born, Soviets were destroying so called "intelligentsya" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligentsia)

such term "inteligentsya" in communism there was prescribed those who are eductated, not those who are "working class" (industry workers, farm warkers), because my grandfather (father of my mother) was always "politically suspected" (cause in 30s he worked in France and he never joined communist party) he had problems till 1971 when he died, although in west he would be rich man,

"inteligentsya" was hated by NKVD and fought by NKVD cause people who read books, are wise, have knowledge about world are not easy to steer as analphabets which were in first half of XX century big percent,

after war to fight "inteligentsya" commies payed BIGGER salary to non-educated workers , so people were not hungry to educate,

- my friend's (he is 50 years old now ) grandfather officer killed in Katyn,

- my other friend grandfather imprisoned in 40s-50s,

- my family problems during communism with one special services officer and lots of suffer in 1980s (i do not judge socialism, i am not anti-socialistic, but i hate all this crap that was connected with overwhelming power of KGB-like institutions in all Warsaw Pact) ,

- untouchable bandit who was son of Stalin administration prosectutor (without Legal University, but in communism you could be "people's lawyer" without studying law) abusing our family,

Anatolij Tiereszczenko „Katyn Myth†book promoted in 2014 by Russian Ministy of Culture and presented on International Books Exhibition by this ministry in exhibition that NOW takes place , so this book was published few weeks ago , but Russian anti-Putin journalist said to our journalists that a lot of such books are published (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alan-johnson/russia-still-burying-truth-about-katyn-massacre even by mainstream press there was denying of NKVD crimes), simply they never been promoted by Ministry of Culture of Russian Fed. , but this book IS promoted by Russian government

http://un.ua/eng/article/511978.html < breaking Ukrainian border from Russian territory , of course Russian border guard, police, army "do not know" about groups of gunmen that waits by Ukrainian border to invade , of course "civilians buy in shop" all this stuff

Edited May 28, 2014 by vilas

[astral4eg 10]

and if you asked before about MY personal history with Russian state or USSR than:

- my family lost all in Sept 1939, confiscated 6 hectares (if documents from 1930 are correct, but according ot other documents there is 5 hectars more, i have no idea, was it 6 or 11 , but something like this ) of land and house, near Solchennyky/Eishyshky, now border of Lithuania and Belarus, there was my mother-family property, in house of my grand grand mother now there is Belarussian school,

- sister of my grandmother dead as small girl during "travel" to Siberia from Grodno-area, her second sister sent to Siberia survived and she survied, but we could return to Poland in 1958 from prisons cause father of my mother was held there till 1958, because he was Polish railway officer (chief of Station and surrounding railway area) before war, if he was officer of Police or Army not of Railway, probably he would be dead too and my mother would never be born, Soviets were destroying so called "intelligentsya" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligentsia)

such term "inteligentsya" in communism there was prescribed those who are eductated, not those who are "working class" (industry workers, farm warkers), because my grandfather (father of my mother) was always "politically suspected" (cause in 30s he worked in France and he never joined communist party) he had problems till 1971 when he died, although in west he would be rich man,

"inteligentsya" was hated by NKVD and fought by NKVD cause people who read books, are wise, have knowledge about world are not easy to steer as analphabets which were in first half of XX century big percent,

after war to fight "inteligentsya" commies payed BIGGER salary to non-educated workers , so people were not hungry to educate,

- my friend's (he is 50 years old now ) grandfather officer killed in Katyn,

- my other friend grandfather imprisoned in 40s-50s,

- my family problems during communism with one special services officer and lots of suffer in 1980s (i do not judge socialism, i am not anti-socialistic, but i hate all this crap that was connected with overwhelming power of KGB-like institutions in all Warsaw Pact) ,

- untouchable bandit who was son of Stalin administration prosectutor (without Legal University, but in communism you could be "people's lawyer" without studying law) abusing our family,

It's unfortunate. Nkvd fought "counterrevolutionary", ordinary people they were not interested.

Anatolij Tiereszczenko „Katyn Myth†book promoted in 2014 by Russian Ministy of Culture and presented on International Books Exhibition by this ministry in exhibition that NOW takes place , so this book was published few weeks ago , but Russian anti-Putin journalist said to our journalists that a lot of such books are published (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alan-johnson/russia-still-burying-truth-about-katyn-massacre even by mainstream press there was denying of NKVD crimes), simply they never been promoted by Ministry of Culture of Russian Fed. , but this book IS promoted by Russian government

This book? and this article?

book tells about the causes of this tragedy, author explained that the possible causes.

Russia has tried to break this vicious circle by repenting of the shooting of Polish prisoners of war in 2010. But conciliatory effect to no avail, but rather the opposite.

At the same time, thousands of repentance for the Russian Red Army soldiers killed in the Polish camps in 1919–24 tortured so no one has brought.

Generally with Poland as it went wrong relationship, beginning with the invasion of Poles in Moscow in 1605

http://un.ua/eng/article/511978.html < breaking Ukrainian border from Russian territory , of course Russian border guard, police, army "do not know" about groups of gunmen that waits by Ukrainian border to invade , of course "civilians buy in shop" all this stuff

of course as well as the EU & USA, Russia will help South-Eastern Ukraine.

Edited May 29, 2014 by astral4eg

[ProfTournesol 956]

Here we go again...we're in 2014, i know Putin's propaganda is trying to rewrite the bloody history of Stalinian USSR, but this has NOTHING to do with what is happening in Ukraine ATM. The so called Ukrainian nazis have made a ridiculous score at presidential elections, so please drop that once and for all.

Yes, some of the media a little lie

That made my day.

Edited May 28, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[astral4eg 10]

Here we go again...we're in 2014, i know Putin's propaganda is trying to rewrite the bloody history of Stalinian USSR, but this has NOTHING to do with what is happening in Ukraine ATM. The so called Ukrainian nazis have made a ridiculous score at presidential elections, so please drop that once and for all.

That made my day.

:icon_eek:

Let's digress from the Polish Russian relations ..

A bit of humor from my

[vilas 473]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Digwuren/Denial_of_Soviet_crimes

thats why probably in East Ukraine there cannot be compromise between Ukrainians and Russians, cause Russians (many of them, or majority) are deny any responsibility or mistakes, moreover, they do not see fact that they invaded other country (we already in this topic had it several times, they do not try to understand what Russians soldiers were doing in other countries, they murdered lots of people in invaded countries, but they moan about prisoners who died due to poor conditions) , but they see as biggest crime resistance against occupation, they do not see their nationalism, but they see "fascists" "nazists" everywhere around

[surpher 1]

(OSCE) Special Monitoring Mission: Contact lost with Donetsk-based team

KYIV, 27 May 2014 - On Monday evening at around 18:00 OSCE Special Monitoring Mission lost contact with one of its Donetsk-based teams.

[vilas 473]

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/ukraina-strzelanina-w-doniecku-i-slowiansku/cne82

info about pro-Russians shooting to civilians , they wanted to play Ukrainian army and opened fire at civilian buildings and school, 10 people wounded,

also notes about pro-Russians using civilians as living-shields

[Tonci87 163]

good try, bot this not true.. good Nazis help fallen from windows , link2

Dude, Me and Misty Ronin here watched the LIVEstream and therefore I really don´t give a shit what some news site writes. I´ve seen it with my own eyes.

We could clearly see who started the fire. The Separatists threw Molotovs from the building, and didn´t really throw them far enough. They started the fire themselves.