Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

A Junta is mainly a word to describe a joint staff of military that controls power, not this case ( a broad definition would mean any ruling council for any organization, country, assembly, neighborhood ). Wiktionary.

And the anti-government forces that you talk about have not been legitimatize by the Donetsk Region population, unlike the actual provisional Kiev Gov. ( that was elected by 73% of Ukrainian's parliament, whose members were voted by all the Ukrainians ).

Democracy is rule of majority, but now, seeing how different minorities are treated in some countries it looks like democracy became the rule of minorities. So I don't look at academic meaning of the word, in real life it can have some different meaning. BTW if you look at Svoboda and PS groups, wearing camo, helmets, having typical military organization...

I'm afraid we are talking about two different things.

One is when the people of a region with a clean democratic vote * decide to get its independence from a country ( for example Slovenia, Croatia or Kosovo ). This is a case that is recognized in the International Law, it's the right of self-determination.

The other is when groups of people without any legibility take the streets using widely war weapons and terrorize the population ( not to confuse with a violent demonstration ), the case in Eastern Ukraine.

As you have seen the legitimization is given by the people who lives in the region ( in democracy it's the people who makes the laws ).

* It's not the Crimean case, as Crimean people voted in illegal Russian military controlled Referendum, that BTW was promoted by a member of the Crimean parliament with less than 5% of the votes.

I would be glad if you remind me the date of independence referendum in Kosovo:) And the same in Macedonian provinces suffered from Albanian insurgency. Clean democratic vote under international observation you say? Were there any international observers during Slovenian and Croatian referendum? And were the interests of Croatian Serbs respected while they boycotted referendum in favor of staying in united country?

Then, may you provide any proofs of Russian military presence at voting places and commitees during the counting? Maybe some foreign observers among those who were at the referendum provided enough material proving that Russian military affected voting or voice counting?

Again double standards: Slovenians, Croats, Bosnians, Albanians separating from Yugoslavia, Chechens separating from Russia - honest will of self determination. Serbs separating from Croatia and Bosnia, Russians separating from Moldova and Ukraine, Abhasians separating from Georgia, Armenians separating from Azerbaycan - evil separatism and threat to peace which must be stopped.:rolleyes:

[akm74 1]

And the anti-government forces that you talk about have not been legitimatize by the Donetsk Region population, unlike the actual provisional Kiev Gov. ( that was elected by 73% of Ukrainian's parliament, whose members were voted by all the Ukrainians )

So how we have to call "group of peoples" who:

1. Overthrow elected president with armed coup (14 police officers dead ?)

2. Have not enough vote (9 short) to be in office in first place (no matter what reasons are. Fact is a fact)

3. Hold 73% of Ukrainian's parliament "under AK barrel (we all so it on video) right inside parliament building until they do what "gunmen" ask them to do.

4. Giving orders to military without authorization to do so.

5. Kidnapping officials on the east and keep them jailed in Kiev.

6. have not been legitimatize by the Donetsk Region population (your quote)

Edited April 27, 2014 by AKM74

[ProfTournesol 956]

@Spooky : to sum it up : separatism of ethnic/pro Russian minorities : good ; separatism of ex-USSR countries seeking for freedom : bad.

BTW, you deny the "rule of majority" for Syria, that's funny.

Edited April 27, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[mistyronin 1181]

So how we have to call "group of peoples" who:

1. Overthrow elected president with armed coup (14 police officers dead ?)

2. Have not enough vote (9 short) to be in office in first place (no matter what reasons are. Fact is a fact)

3. Hold 73% of Ukrainian's parliament "under AK barrel (we all so it on video) right inside parliament building until they do what "gunmen" ask the to do.

4. Giving orders to military without authorization to do so.

5. Kidnapping officials on the east juts to keep them jailed in Kiev.

1. Where did you see the "armed coup"?

You mean protesters in the streets that defended themselves with violence when the police were trying to "clear" the square? ( the armed ones used mainly sticks, stones and molotov cocktails as in any other main European demonstration ).

Was that an armed coup? Check about 9/11 in Chile, Spanish Civil War, etc. That were armed coups using lots of war weapons ( even with armies at their disposal ).

14 policemen death in a riots that caused more few dozens of protesters dead is not an armed coup.

2. You mean 9 votes short for an impeachment? But the case in Ukraine is that the president had fled abandoning his responsibilities.

3. Under AK barrel? I'm sure that if that vote was done today it would have the same results. Besides that even the Yanukovich Party of nations voted freely and have not issued any complain of the vote.

4 and 5 give me more details on that, I don't know what are you referring.

- - - - -

Democracy is rule of majority, but now, seeing how different minorities are treated in some countries it looks like democracy became the rule of minorities.

Democracy has never been the rule of the majority. It's the rule of the people with the minorities included.

And countries and laws are nothing more than social conventions. An agreement between the people that live in a region to coexist in peace and have certain protection.

I would be glad if you remind me the date of independence referendum in Kosovo:)

The 17 February 2008 and was voted by the Assembly of Kosovo which was elected by Kosovo's population as their representatives ( I said vote no referendum ).

Which BTW is the same system that was used in the USA in the Declaration of Independence the 4 of July,1776 ( its possible that you have heard about it ). Same way was also used by most of the countries of the world to get its independence.

And the same in Macedonian provinces suffered from Albanian insurgency. Clean democratic vote under international observation you say? Were there any international observers during Slovenian and Croatian referendum? And were the interests of Croatian Serbs respected while they boycotted referendum in favor of staying in united country?

They had no international interference, and there were observers from most of the nations of Europe. If Croatian Serbs decided to boycott the referendum, ergo no vote. It's obvious that their "no vote" is not taking into account ( as in any democratic nation ).

Then, may you provide any proofs of Russian military presence at voting places and commitees during the counting? Maybe some foreign observers among those who were at the referendum provided enough material proving that Russian military affected voting or voice counting?

Russian Military presence at the voting place? Well the Russian military was all over Crimea ( recognized by Putin himself ), besides paramilitary pro-Russian groups from all Eastern Europe ( from Cossacks to Serbian para military ).

Just to finish, the international law applies to everyone the same. Moldova, Ukraine, Albania, Armenia, etc.

Edited April 27, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

I would be glad if you remind me the date of independence referendum in Kosovo:) And the same in Macedonian provinces suffered from Albanian insurgency. Clean democratic vote under international observation you say? Were there any international observers during Slovenian and Croatian referendum? And were the interests of Croatian Serbs respected while they boycotted referendum in favor of staying in united country?

Then, may you provide any proofs of Russian military presence at voting places and commitees during the counting? Maybe some foreign observers among those who were at the referendum provided enough material proving that Russian military affected voting or voice counting?

Again double standards: Slovenians, Croats, Bosnians, Albanians separating from Yugoslavia, Chechens separating from Russia - honest will of self determination. Serbs separating from Croatia and Bosnia, Russians separating from Moldova and Ukraine, Abhasians separating from Georgia, Armenians separating from Azerbaycan - evil separatism and threat to peace which must be stopped.:rolleyes:

Oh please don´t go there. You see the Yugoslavian state worked in weird ways. Profits that were generated in the provinces like Croatia and Slowenia were not reinvested in those provinces but instead transfered to Serbia and especially Belgrad. There was also an increased Serbification forced on the inhabitants of the provinces. The language teached at school was Serbian. Also you were beaten up by the police for singing a national croatian song in public.

Please red up on the Croatian spring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Spring

The UDBA, Yugoslavias Secret service also actively prosecuted and assasinated Croatian emmigrants who supported the national movement all across the globe.

Serbs also held a disproportionally large number of positions in politics, Military and Police.

In conclusion Croatians and the people in the other autonomous provinces were living under constant supression. Russians in the Ukraine on the other hand didn´t have it any worse than their Ukrainian neighbours.

In the end it became apparent that the Belgrade Governments goal was to install a great Serbian Empire, something far right Serbs have dreamed about for centuries. (Far right Croatians on the other hand only dreamed of having an independent Croatia, nothing more).

The Referendum had a turnout of 83.56% with 93.24% and 92.18% of the voters in favour of independence. Even before the referendum Croatian Serbs under the influence of Belgrade propaganda (The Croatians are all fashists who want to kill every brave Serb communist! Sounds familiar doesn´t it?) had started to build roadblocks and armed themselves with Belgrade support.

After the referendum Yugoslavian military started to attack Slovenian and Croatian territory, even bombing the Parliament building in Zagreb. Croatian and Slovenian militaries were non existent at the point since the Yugoslavian Army had pulled back all heavy weapons from both countries and even disarmed the police.

Now for the Serb Krajina.

They were under heavy influence from Serbian propaganda and their intention wasn´t to remain in Croatia. They didn´t recognize Croatia as a state and were in favour of the Great Serbia Idea with Serbs beeing the dominant, if not only population.

Croatia wouldn´t have had a problem with that since we were all for independence of everyone but:

The Krajina Serbs were sitting in the capital city of the old Kingdom of Croatia (Imagine if Sankt Petersburg suddenly wanted to seccede from Russia)

The Yugoslavian military used the Krajina as a springboard to attack towards Zadar, cutting Croatia in half!

Also many villages and cities were under daily artillery fire from the territorium of the Krajina.

On top of that the Serbs started were the first to take up arms and ambush/kill police officers.

So you see you absolutely can´t compare the Situation in ex-Yugoslavia to the situation in the Ukraine.

There wasn´t a foreign military involved in the Slowenian and Croatian referendums, unlike what happened on the Krim.

There also wasn´t any violent, heavily armed, hostage taking militia in Croatia or Slovenia.

And Croatia and Slovenia also didn´t have any foreign support before the war started. Unlike now in Eastern Ukraine.

[mistyronin 1181]

( The Guardian ) pro-Russian forces seize TV station in Donetsk and parade captives

Pro-Russian separatists seized control of the TV station in the eastern city of Donetsk on Sunday, and immediately set about switching off Ukrainian TV and replacing it with Russian channels that broadcast exclusively pro-Kremlin views.

A crowd of about 300 left a rally in Donetsk's Lenin Square and marched through the city centre, pulling down Ukrainian flags.

With police looking on but not intervening, the activists surged into the regional television centre. Masked youths, armed with baseball bats, ran up the flag of the "Donetsk People's Republic" from the roof of the Stalinist neo-classical building.

Its shaken director, Oleg Dzholos, emerged soon afterwards to say that the separatists had brought with them a technician who was turning off Kiev television and replacing it with Rossiya 24. The Russian state channel calls Ukraine's pro-western leaders "fascists" and frequently runs montages of them with footage of the Nazis.

[akm74 1]

@Spooky : to sum it up : separatism of ethnic/pro Russian minorities : good ; separatism of ex-USSR countries seeking for freedom : bad.

BTW, you deny the "rule of majority" for Syria, that's funny.

not really. USSR = 15 republics (including Russia). 14 of them independent now. 3 members of nato.

[mistyronin 1181]

[akm74 1]

1. Where did you see the "armed coup"?

You mean protesters in the streets that defended themselves with violence when the police were trying to "clear" the square? ( the armed ones used mainly sticks, stones and molotov cocktails as in any other main European demonstration ).

Was that an armed coup? Check about 9/11 in Chile, Spanish Civil War, etc. That were armed coups using lots of war weapons ( even with armies at their disposal ).

14 policemen death in a riots that caused more few dozens of protesters dead is not an armed coup.

2. You mean 9 votes short for an impeachment? But the case in Ukraine is that the president had fled abandoning his responsibilities.

3. Under AK barrel? I'm sure that if that vote was done today it would have the same results. Besides that even the Yanukovich Party of nations voted freely and have not issued any complain of the vote.

#4 and #5 give me more details on that, I don't know what are you referring.

You answers for #1 and #3 contradict to each other. For #2. I already told told you reasons don't matter. If you have to steal to feed yourself it still a crime.

But anyway. I just looking for simple answer. How you will call "group of peoples" who commit #1 to #5 ?

[mistyronin 1181]

You answers for #1 and #3 contradict to each other. For #2. I already told told you reasons don't matter. If you have to steal to feed yourself it still a crime.

But anyway. I just looking for simple answer. How you will call "group of peoples" who commit #1 to #5 ?

They don't contradict. An armed coup is a coup done by an army or a military organization.

And "Kidnapping officials on the east and keep them jailed in Kiev." if its done by an Official Gov. for legal reasons it's called detention. You still haven't clarified who and how.

[akm74 1]

Simon start to play "lost in translation" games. 1.50 he ask him where he was in 2008. Guy tell him "i was in jail". Simon translation = Not far away, Kuban.... (Russian south region)

They don't contradict. An armed coup is a coup done by an army or a military organization.

can members of "national guard" be classified as "army or a military organization" ?

And "Kidnapping officials on the east and keep them jailed in Kiev." if its done by an Official Gov. for legal reasons it's called detention. You still haven't clarified who and how.

There are no official Gov in Kiev yet (read #1 #2 #3).. therefore they cant "detain" anyone for any reason. Edited April 27, 2014 by AKM74

[mistyronin 1181]

Simon star to play "lost in translation" games. 1.50 he ask him where he was in 2008. Guy tell him "i was in jail". Simon translation = Not far away, Kuban.... (Russian south region)

That is interesting, can someone else confirm that?

( BTW from my point of view in that video he tries to demonstrate that the american reports calling this bearded man a Russian Spec op are false ) .

---------- Post added at 00:51 ---------- Previous post was at 00:45 ----------

More on the Bearded man from TIME:

( TIME ) Meet the Pro-Russian Separatists of Eastern Ukraine

On the ground, the conflict in this town of 120,000 feels far more erratic and dangerous than the Russian occupation of Crimea, where a sense of order largely prevailed, in part because of the presence of disciplined and professional Russian troops. The ranks of the so-called “green men†who are running Slavyansk, in contrast to those troops, appear to be made up mostly of war veterans, itinerant pro-Russian nationalists and ethnic Cossacks from across the former Soviet Union.

But over the past few days there has been no evident sign that they are receiving material support from Russia. Their foot soldiers have been so short on fuel that they have asked journalists to bring them gasoline in exchange for granting interviews, saying they don’t have enough fuel to go on patrols.

Their leader, Vyacheslav Ponomaryov, a soap manufacturer who took the title of “people’s mayor†after seizing power, has pleaded for assistance from Russian President Vladimir Putin, but has apparently been ignored. “We need guns, you understand? We’re running out of everything but spirit,†he tells TIME. His militia force, he admits, is made up partly of volunteers who have come from Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and other parts of the former Soviet Union.

Earlier this year, Mozhaev said, just as a revolution was forcing Ukraine’s old regime from power, he was charged in Krasnodar with a violent crime — which he described as “threatening to kill someone with a knife.†When he failed to come up with the bribe money for the corrupt officials who he says fabricated the charges, Mozhaev was put on a national wanted list in Russia and went on the run, according to his account, which could not be verified.

---------- Post added at 01:12 ---------- Previous post was at 00:51 ----------

There are no official Gov in Kiev yet (read #1 #2 #3).. therefore they cant "detain" anyone for any reason.

There is. Was voted by the 73% of the parliament that was elected in 2012, including the votes of the Party of the Regions.

It's also the official gov. because it has been considered as such by practically all the countries in the world ( including Russia, with who they reach an agreement in Geneve ).

So yeah, the National Guard is legal, etc.

Edited April 27, 2014 by MistyRonin

[akm74 1]

But over the past few days there has been no evident sign that they are receiving material support from Russia. Their foot soldiers have been so short on fuel that they have asked journalists to bring them gasoline in exchange for granting interviews, saying they don’t have enough fuel to go on patrols.

ironically they can't take it from Ukraine army, they have no food or fuel ether..

There is. Was voted by the 73% of the parliament that was elected in 2012, including the votes of the Party of the Regions.

It's also the official gov. because it has been considered as such by practically all the countries in the world ( including Russia, with who they reach an agreement in Geneve ).

So yeah, the National Guard is legal, etc.

By constitution they need 226 , they only have 117 *if i'm not mistaken). They ignore it ? Yes. Is it legal ? no

Common Misty, we can do it for very long time. But it did't change facts.

Edited April 27, 2014 by AKM74

[mistyronin 1181]

Common Misty, we can do it for very long time. But it did't change facts.

Indeed. The only difference between your point and mine, is that practically all the countries' govs of the world agree with mine, even Russia considers them the Official Gov. of Ukraine.

So there is no point to keep with the debate.

- - -

( Yle ) Finnish president: More sanctions against Russia may be needed

[akm74 1]

Indeed. The only difference between your point and mine, is that practically all the countries' govs of the world agree with mine, even Russia considers them the Official Gov. of Ukraine.

exactly. When "other governments" can ignore constitution and laws they don't have to be surprised in outcome we have now.

( Yle ) Finnish president: More sanctions against Russia may be needed

Ikea will be closed one hour earlier on Monday ?

Edited April 27, 2014 by AKM74

[blu3sman 11]

By constitution they need 226 , they only have 117 *if i'm not mistaken). They ignore it ? Yes. Is it legal ? no

Common Misty, we can do it for very long time. But it did't change facts.

I'm sorry for bursting your bubble. Just facts:

21 feb - vote to revert constitution - 386 (major point of "21 feb agreements" that are so praised by kremlin. President had to sign this act, but he did not, breaking the agreement)

22 feb - Turchinov for head of parliament - 288

27 feb - Yatzeniuk as PM - 371

Tell me more about facts.

[akm74 1]

I'm sorry for bursting your bubble. Just facts:

21 feb - vote to revert constitution - 386 (major point of "21 feb agreements" that are so praised by kremlin. President had to sign this act, but he did not, breaking the agreement)

22 feb - Turchinov for head of parliament - 288

27 feb - Yatzeniuk as PM - 371

Tell me more about facts.

\

don't be sorry. We understand...

How to vote in the Verkhovna Rada. In pictures

http://ruskline.ru/politnews/2014/03/28/kak_golosuyut_v_verhovnoj_rade_fotofakty/

Edited April 28, 2014 by AKM74

[spooky lynx 73]

@Spooky : to sum it up : separatism of ethnic/pro Russian minorities : good ; separatism of ex-USSR countries seeking for freedom : bad.

BTW, you deny the "rule of majority" for Syria, that's funny.

To sum it up, you guys should either admit all the attempts to separate and create own state or respect all the territorial integrities, like I do. I admit the right to self-determine of ex-USSR nations, all of them, despite most of them failed to create really independent and well-working states even having very good starting conditions of former Soviet legacy (industry, agriculture, energy generating facilities etc.). So I don't understand why Azeris can separate and have their own state with disrespect of USSR territorial integrity but Armenians can't do the same in Artsakh. The same goes to Abhasia. You may say further separation may result to more escalations, but it had been already resulted in several wars across the ex-USSR, so there wouldn't be anything worse IMHO.

As for the Syria, if there would be real rule and will of majority, Assad's regime would fall already. But it still exists, moreover seems that government forces are winning mostly now. With major support of the opposition by locals that wouldn't happen. So...

[arttem 1]

S.: - Where were you in 2008 during the war in Georgia?

B.: - I was in "places not so far". (in jail)

S.: - In Kuban?

B.: - Yes.

Babay using old Russian popular expression - "places not so far". :D

(encyclopedia) http://www.bibliotekar.ru/encSlov/12/53.htm

"Places not so far" - the expression of the Russian legislation before 1917, in which this expression appeared as an official term. By law, the exile to Siberia was of two kinds, which corresponded to more severe and less severe form of punishment: the first was the direction of the condemned man "in far places of Siberia", second - "in the not so far places of Siberia".

This formulation is firmly established in the Russian language the second half of the XIX century. Later these words were used as if by inertia is already applied not to the exile. But to imprisonment.

Ironically: about jail, prison, settlement elsewhere in the court verdict, etc.

So. As i see now. It's my neighbors. Terskoe voisko (Tersk army) cossaks (nothing to Terek Wolfpack, that group still a question for me), from Krasnodar. Not all of them. Just some volunteers.

On that video you can see the full roster of Tersk army. Legal formations still use uniform from 1860. And still loyal to the country and the government. :) The Tersk army stay on the third place in number among the another cossacks army. Their HQ is placed in Vladikavkaz (North Osetiya).

One of the usual schools from my city. (nothing special) And they are cossacks too. (boy hold in hands a flag of Russian Empire)

Edited April 28, 2014 by ArtTem

[mistyronin 1181]

S.: - Where were you in 2008 during the war in Georgia?

B.: - I was in "places not so far". (in jail)

S.: - In Kuban?

B.: - Yes.

Babay using old Russian popular expression - "places not so far". :D

(encyclopedia) http://www.bibliotekar.ru/encSlov/12/53.htm

Thank you for the linguistic note! It's an interesting expression.

Simon has translated it literally in the video. I don't think he was trying to change the words ( as in this particular case doesn't affect at all in the whole point, that was to show that "Babay" hasn't been in the Spets Naz ).

As he is not a native Russian, he may not know the expression or found it ambiguous. Anyway it'd be interesting if you found any other weird translation.

Edited April 28, 2014 by MistyRonin

[arttem 1]

As he is not a native Russian, he may not know the expression or found it ambiguous.

Notice. He is Russian. And was born and grown up in Russia. But i agree, it doesn't tell to us that he must know or remember everything from traditions and language of his country.

[vilas 473]

no matter how corrupted is Tymoshenko and Yanukovych party, how corrupted is Olygarchy system in Ukraine (which rather reminds feudali systems from past centuries, probably only honest party in Ukraine is Right Sector cause rest is simply bribe-taking thieves no matter if Tymoshenko or Yanuk, they all the same it seems, and it is problem of Ukriane that only party that not steal and not take bribes is "half-nazi" but it is natural that when everyone is corrupted than ultra-right emotions arise, it is normal reaction against corruption, nepotism and such like which is condemned in West but which is normal in East), no matter if people there can have right to independence (to get out from this Ukrainian mess and corruption that caused Maidan ironically ending with Tymoshenko again on top), taking hostages is terrorism and terrorists who take hostages from other countries (which are not side of conflict) should be eliminated and hostages should never been taken, it is still Ukrainian territory and those officers were acting under invitation of Ukrainian government, Ukrainian forces should do all to free hostages day ago

Edited April 28, 2014 by vilas

[arttem 1]

...taking hostages is terrorism and terrorists who take hostages from other countries (which are not side of conflict) should be eliminated and hostages should never been taken, it is still Ukrainian territory and those officers were acting under invitation of Ukrainian government, Ukrainian forces should do all to free hostages day ago...

Yes. Agree.

[mistyronin 1181]

ArtTem impressive video of the Cossacks' children training, really hard.

- - -

[arttem 1]

ArtTem impressive video of the Cossacks' children training, really hard.

Some history:

Wolf hundred - semi-official name of some Cossack military units in the Russo-Japanese, Civil, First and Second World wars as well as during the suppression of the "Boxer rebellion" in China (the so-called Chinese approach 1900-1901).

During the First world war, in December 1915 captain Shkuro formed from the Kuban Cossacks mounted detachment of special assignment - the first in Russian history spetsnaz. Formed from the most desperate break-heads the division was of special symbols: black flag, banner, chest and shoulder marks (Chevron) with the image of the wolf bared, and the Cossacks wore hats of wolf skins. Therefore Kuban special troops immediately entrenched and unofficial name - "wolf hundred".

Shkuro again collects Cossacks “Wolf hundredsâ€. They had no artillery shells and cartridges. They are waging a guerrilla war subversive methods against regular units of the red army, exceed in number the 20-30 times. In July 1918, Shkuro sudden raid ravaging the headquarters of the red and takes Stavropol.

In January 1919, his division exempt from the Bolsheviks upper reaches of the Kuban and takes Vladikavkaz, the capital of the Terek Cossack army, for which itself Shkuro receives the rank of major-General. The head of the British military mission personally awarded him the order of the Bath of the 1st degree - the highest Queens award in the UK. “White partisanâ€, “folk hero†- these are the epithets to address the young Cossack General not depart from the pages of Newspapers. In Russia, the UK and France are published biography Shkuro. It was a world recognition of his military merits and talents.

In June 1941, Shkuro appeals to the leadership of Germany with a proposal to form a Cossack divisions and corps as part of the Wehrmacht to fight against the Communists. It also offers to recreate, as in 1918, the Cossack Republic in the Kuban and the Don. From Hitler and his entourage categorical denial and prohibition to take Shkuro, Krasnov and other atamans on civil service in the institutions of the III Reich. In 1942-43 some senior officers of the Wehrmacht ignored the orders of Hitler about the ban on the formation of Russian Liberation Army and the Cossack parts.

Himmler and his entourage never trust the white General Shkuro. After the assassination attempt on Hitler in particular.

In may 1945, Shkuro manage to escape in southern Austria, Lienz, which at that time was concentrated the largest number of Cossacks and members of their families. In June 1945 the British military gave them all (70 thousand people!), in the massacre of Stalin. Has not escape this fate and Shkuro with Krasnov, although they were not citizens of the USSR.

Before the death General Andrei Shkuro spat in the face of the NKVD officer.

Finally, the experience of the "Wolf Hundreds" were used as special services of the USSR and the "experts" Europe and the USA. Wolfpack is the first and unique sabotage detachment in the history of war.

Finaly that guys was fighting on the SS side against Russians.

And what now:

I've spoke with some people from my city. And seems that found that "Wolfpack". :) They are from my region! But they are in exile. Commanders and regular cossacks hunting for them time to time. They are not legitimate. And not accepted by the official cossacks and Russian government. And a big head pain for cossacks command, that "Wolfpack" always try to do hidden agitate work between children. Till 2011 there was 150 of Chechens and Russians in Wolfpack. They are all nationalists. Base was near my city, few kilometers. At now friends tell me, it's very hard to find them. But if we have some info about them. Their business alive and thriving. :( One guy said to me that i must pay attention that many formations use that name (without historical symbols) just because it sounds cool. Nothing to real Wolfpack. But as i remember those link (from Vilas? i can be wrong here), few pages ago in that thread, guys from Wolfpack in Crimea was using all symbols. It's very sad. :(

The problem is - they are the gentiles. As i understood, the wolf is the beast of Dazhbog. Dazhboh, Dazhbog (et-Rus. Dazhbog) is one of the main gods in Slavic mythology, God of fertility and sunlight. And here is go the main collision between them. Cossacks are christians.

Finaly:

So it's hard to understand, Wolfpack in our days - is just a cossacks spec ops (took a name of the unit without any political color, just because they was cool spec ops and against commi) or something realy bad (we can't forget that they was serving in SS). And as i see at now they mainly gentiles. Thats why they have many problems with official cossacks.

Edited April 28, 2014 by ArtTem