Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

From the most prestigious newspaper in Spain, El País, it comes today's editorial about the Ukrainian crisis ( it's in Spanish but I translated the first lines ):

( El País ) Rusia insaciable ( translated: Russia insatiable )

Russia doesn't allow any break to it's neighbor Ukraine: after stealing its Crimea peninsula, now creates chaos in the oriental regions aiming to jeopardize the 25th of may's presidential elections [...]

Interesting text, specially coming from a left wing newspaper, that used to announce all the Russian improvements and glories.

Just another point of how international community is turning against the imperialist policies of the actual Russian Government.

Edited April 15, 2014 by MistyRonin

[blu3sman 11]

Who are the two men and who are the gunmen supposed to be?

The car belongs to a company providing security services.

Yesterday another their car was escorting cargo and was attacked by separatists, employees kidnapped. It later was used in an ambush on SBU group.

http://www.poltava.pl.ua/news/27579/

Who are the gunmen? Maybe local separatists, maybe russian mercenaries, GRU? One thing I know for sure - our russian friends will claim it's right sector :).

[spooky lynx 73]

Again, let's make an exercise of imagination of a possible situation.

What would happen if in Russia some cities were taken by pro-US violent demonstrators that wanted those regions join the US. What would happen if they storm police stations and get weapons... What would Russian Army do, and what would Russia media call them...

I still remember in a nation in Russia where, armed militias were trying to get the independence of the region from Russia, Chechnya. Still today Russia media calls them terrorists, and used in the past from fighter jets, to tanks, artillery, etc...

I support the claim of equal rights for Russian speaking citizens in Ukraine. But taking the weapons and assaulting buildings it's a war crime, and must be solved in that way.

When Russian speaking minorities armed themselves and mounted an armed insurrection, they lost all kind of respect and rights they may had.

I wonder why, according to such logics, Yanukovich had not been praised for dispersing protesters who took the weapons, assaulted the buildings, attacked the LEOs and other citizens who hadn't supported maidan... But instead of it he was accused of all the sins. Now his rivals act even more violent, forbidding TV channels, prosecuting opposition candidate for presidency and doing nothing against mob beating him, ordering use armed forces against protesters... Seems like those who fought Yanukovich are 'protesters' that must be dealt with patience and peace. Those who fight against junta with the same methods junta used earlier are separatists, terrorists and Kremlin agents... Ole good 'freedom fighters vs rebels' rhetorics. And you guys are wondered why Russians think Cold war is not over.:rolleyes: I bet if Yanuk would order to take away all that illegal scrapyard from central Kyiv streets (yes it was illegal and protesters were asked by officials to remove tent camps at first) by army engineering vehicles supported by infantry and ordered opposition TV channels to be switched off all of you would cry about bloody dictator who suffocated the freedom of his citizens. Now junta does this. Well, still no condemnations.

[derk yall 0]

There is a huge difference between protest against governament and supporting further annexation/invasion by a foreign country. Something you are choosing to ignore in your rethoric.

And why should they not be named separatist? They want to separate from the country and join another? Yes, so why should they not be named that?

[mistyronin 1181]

I wonder why, according to such logics, Yanukovich had not been praised for dispersing protesters who took the weapons, assaulted the buildings, attacked the LEOs and other citizens who hadn't supported maidan...

You should watch again all videos about the protest in Maidan. The only fights happened when the Berkut tried to removed them from the main square. The majority of people were unarmed, and the minority that were, only got sticks and molotov cocktails.

Later when the Berkut used assault rifles, a couple of hunting and BB guns were shown. But far, far, far, far away from a complete armed insurrection with hundreds of armed militias with assault rifles and other war weapons taking Police Stations, terrorizing the population.

I condemn all kinds of violence ( but self defense ), but comparing a vandalism with a whole armed insurrection its just crazy.

And I will repeat, I'm all for those who peacefully fight for their rights.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Now we know where the jobless Berkut have moved.

[[evo] dan 79]

http://theaviationist.com/2014/04/15/su-27-reportedly-down/

[blu3sman 11]

Dan;2668477']http://theaviationist.com/2014/04/15/su-27-reportedly-down/

Journalism FPDR

UKRAINIAN SU-27 SHOT DOWN

Well' date=' it looked more like a helicopter. And it was in Syria, but who cares.[/size']

Also I like how Su-27 attacks infantry with AA missiles. What is this, Arma?:rolleyes:

[[evo] dan 79]

Journalism FPDR

Also I like how Su-27 attacks infantry with AA missiles. What is this, Arma?:rolleyes:

Tell me about it, and they are supposed to be aviation reporters too....

[Tonci87 163]

The car belongs to a company providing security services.

Yesterday another their car was escorting cargo and was attacked by separatists, employees kidnapped. It later was used in an ambush on SBU group.

http://www.poltava.pl.ua/news/27579/

Who are the gunmen? Maybe local separatists, maybe russian mercenaries, GRU? One thing I know for sure - our russian friends will claim it's right sector :).

Quite possible. At first I was unsure from wich side they would be, but I considered that troops from the ukrainian military would have set up a proper roadblock and have trucks or APCs nearby. You say the car belongs to a security service? Are they transporting money? Maybe it´s just a few separatists who decided to gain some wealth.

I don´t think that they are military though. If they were GRU, that car wouldn´t have been able to get away.

I think I know what is going on. There seems to be some kind of special forces group (the guys with the identical uniforms) that drives around taking police stations. They then hand over the station to local pro russians who are already on standby. Those guys arm themselves and hold the building. The special forces guys go to the next station etc. I don´t think that they belong to the russian military. It is more likely that they are ex-Berkut or something similiar. I do think however that they have some russian "advisors" among them.

[Rydygier 1302]

Former officer of GROM identified Russians in Ukraine.

You need to call the situation by name - On the east of Ukraine operate Russian special services - says a former member of GROM Lt. Col. Krzysztof Przepiórka.

According to former commando, the Ukrainian government has completely not cope with the current situation and we have a replay of the Crimean scenario. He points out that foreign troops in eastern Ukraine is not just any folk militia trained soldiers. This is indicated primarily by consistent uniforms, uniform accessories and equipment. Even the way of movement. I know how to move special forces soldiers, because you need to learn it and it is precisely this type of action - said Lt. Col. Krzysztof Przepiórka.

The former soldier of GROM emphasizes that the Ukrainians in a very easy way can demonstrate this. Need to pacify an object, in which are those green men, I call them by name, they are goons, take such a group into captivity, move them in the right place, interrogate and show the world, who in fact is there - advises ex commando.

Lieutenant Colonel Krzysztof Przepiórka emphasizes that the Ukrainian side was now in a very difficult situation. Not learned the lessons of the Crimean crisis. The Russians already gave signs that this eastern Ukraine is basically to take. Even then, after the Crimean crisis all sensitive points, which de facto are occupied now by the Russians should be secured by special forces of Ukraine. Unfortunately, Ukrainians were and are a few steps behind the actions of the Russians. It's hard to say why this is happening - says the former military.

other source

- Why Ukrainians not secured that - do not know. Now all these important facilities are occupied by Russian forces, not any pro-Russian separatists, but just the Russian troops, and here will be now very difficult - says lieutenant colonel.

In his opinion, in the actions of retaking of occupied buildings should play a major role Ukrainian special forces. -Should be used strictly Ukrainian special forces, because only they are prepared for this as it should be. For the other hand, operating units, such as the typical infantry can secure these activities. They are not intended for action in such difficult conditions, and these are really harsh conditions. There is civilian population near and the impact must be very precise - emphasizes the military.

- And there is also the question of motivation, determination, morale of the troops. Certainly better motivated are Russian soldiers than Ukrainian. They are better paid and they know that they have in support of the local population that wants to join back to Russia - shows Lt. Col. Przepiórka, and points out that no best for the morale of the Ukrainian soldiers proves the fact that many of them simply went to the Russian side.

[akm74 1]

http://rt.com/op-edge/west-leaders-ukraine-democracy-600/

[Tonci87 163]

http://rt.com/op-edge/west-leaders-ukraine-democracy-600/

Typical RT propaganda BS. A few valid points in a well written article to deliver a false message.

[akm74 1]

Quite possible. At first I was unsure from wich side they would be, but I considered that troops from the ukrainian military would have set up a proper roadblock and have trucks or APCs nearby. You say the car belongs to a security service? Are they transporting money? Maybe it´s just a few separatists who decided to gain some wealth.

I don´t think that they are military though. If they were GRU, that car wouldn´t have been able to get away.

I think I know what is going on. There seems to be some kind of special forces group (the guys with the identical uniforms) that drives around taking police stations. They then hand over the station to local pro russians who are already on standby. Those guys arm themselves and hold the building. The special forces guys go to the next station etc. I don´t think that they belong to the russian military. It is more likely that they are ex-Berkut or something similiar. I do think however that they have some russian "advisors" among them.

i was always think this guy is a clown. I was wrong. He simply idiot :p

[Tonci87 163]

i was always think this guy is a clown. I was wrong. He simply idiot :p

Well I do hope you aren´t refering to a member of this forum.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Tonci87

[akm74 1]

did he member of this forum ?

[mistyronin 1181]

i was always think this guy is a clown. I was wrong. He simply idiot :p

I don't get much the point of insulting someone. If you think he's doing anything weird for you, you could just share your thoughts with some arguments.

Said that. After watching the different videos, my instinct as ex-soldier says me that some of the men that were inside Donetsk buildings, and also the ones seen storming a police station wearing the same uniform, have received military training and know how to use weapons and how to put a good defense. They do know what they do, and mean business ( I have already said in other posts, although I do have my doubts about if they were any kind of spec forces, in the Crimea parliament storm they were for sure ), what is clear is that besides them most of the others seen in the videos in the barricades or guarding buildings could perfectly be farmers.

So I'm with Tonci in that there is some kind of more "operative unit" dressed with SURPAT that seizes the buildings. If they are Russian or ex-soviet combatants I don't know. But it's clearly a violent insurrection, not a protest nor vandalism. We are talking about military organized militias armed with assault rifles.

To me its really sad, because I'm sure that Russian speaking Ukrainians would have had huge international support if they had tried non-violent protests, but now all is blown up for this insurrection ( which as in any other country in the world has to be crushed using the national military ).

What is also crystal clear is that the only responsible for any casualty are those who took weapons and created an insurrection.

Although we will also have to study how the Ukrainian military acts ( for now it seems that with lots of caution ).

Edited April 15, 2014 by MistyRonin

[akm74 1]

After watching the different videos, my instinct as ex-soldier says me that some of the men that were inside Donetsk buildings, and also the ones seen storming a police station wearing the same uniform, have received military training and know how to use weapons and how to put a good defense. They do know what they do, and mean business ( I have already said in other posts, although I do have my doubts about if they were any kind of spec forces, in the Crimea parliament storm they were for sure ), what is clear is that besides them most of the others seen in the videos in the barricades or guarding buildings could perfectly be farmers.

with all respect, Ukraine is a country with 40.000.000 peoples. Of course there are a guys "know how to use weapons and how to put a good defense". And lots of them on both sides. Don't judge by their current "official" army look and experience. They have basically zero findings for last 20 years.

I don't get much the point of insulting someone. If you think he's doing anything weird for you, you could just share your thoughts with some arguments.

When i was watching his first videos it was actually fun for a wale. "Self made" reporter trying to make it in this business. Or maybe get some attention to get better job. And that's totally fine to me. But, he is not CNN. There is no "general public" you can lie for whole 2 hours and no one notice it (because no one give a ***).

Hes doing reports *at least he pretend) for very limited audience.

His viewers watch him because they have some interest in the event he trying to cover. But this also mean he is not "single source" of information for them. When he start to "i report what i'm personally think, this must be true, because i'm think it it" he just make him self sound stupid.

To me its really sad, because I'm sure that Russian speaking Ukrainians would have had huge international support if they had tried non-violent protests, but now all is blown up for this insurrection ( which as in any other country in the world would be crushed using the national military ).

we already discuss it before. When they protest peacefully for 2 weeks , they have zero support from anyone. Its only now, when they get AK's, they get instant recognition.

But what is crystal clear is that the only responsible for any casualty are those who took weapons and created an insurrection. Although we will also have to study how the Ukrainian military acts ( for now it seems that with lots of caution ).

Yes, they are. They only killed 4 civilian and wounded 5 other from 10 who actually was on that field at that time. UN will study it, sure...

Edited April 15, 2014 by AKM74

[mistyronin 1181]

with all respect, Ukraine is a country with 40.000.000 peoples. Of course there are a guys "know how to use weapons and how to put a good defense". And lots of them on both sides.

Of course, that's why I said that I don't know if they are Russians or Ukrainians, or else.

But what is clear to anyone I think, is that while in Eastern Ukraine the pro-Russians have started a military style insurrection with war weapons, during the Maidan's clashes it was something completely different, was the common unrest that you could find in a lot of other countries.

People fighting with molotov cocktails, rocks, sticks and BB guns can be seen in any major European demonstration; from France, to Spain, to Germany, UK, Italy, even the peaceful Sweden.

But full insurrection, taking cities, wielding assault rifles and so on, is a whole completely different stuff.

Would you mind telling me, what would happen in Russia if in one of its regions, people armed with assault rifles start seizing buildings and taking control of cities? What would the Russian government do?

And what if that people were wanting independence like Chechnya , or even asked to be annexed to another country, like US or Canada. What would the Kremlin do?

When he start to "i report what i'm personally think, this must be true, because i'm think it it" he just make him self sound stupid.

Well, IMO he's trying to be as neutral as possible, but obviously he is giving a chronicle, which is a journalistic genre which precisely consist in tell what he thinks and how he lives the events. So its obvious that can't be 100% objective. But thats why us literate people have dozens of media to choose and contrast information.

we already discuss it before. When they protest peacefully for 2 weeks , they have zero support from anyone. Its only now, when they get AK's, they get instant recognition.

So people from a lot of regions of the world that have been fighting for their rights, to use their language, have own economy, freedom etc. for a lot of years ( Catalonia, Basque country, Scotland, Quebec, Swedish-Finnish, etc.) should also have armed themselves after only two weeks? This is the most warmonger argument I've ever read.

In most of the countries there are situations like the one that Russian speaking Ukrainians are experiencing, should everyone take weapons? That would mean hundreds of wars.

Yes, they are. They only killed 4 civilian and wounded 5 other from 10 who actually was on that field at that time. UN will study it, sure...

I don't know if you have military experience, but 4 dead ( which still have to be proven were unarmed ) in this kind of circumstances, its admirably. If you want we can check past situations in Russia or the rest of the world and contrast.

BTW talking about UN studies:

( Reuters ) U.N. finds fear-mongering by pro-Russians in Ukraine

Ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine have falsely claimed to be under attack to justify Russian involvement, a report by the U.N. human rights office said on Tuesday.

In Crimea, where a referendum on secession from Ukraine was held on March 16, there were "credible allegations" of harassment, arbitrary arrest and torture targeting activists and journalists who did not support the referendum.

It was "widely assessed" that Russian speakers had not been subject to threats, the report said.

U.N. officials had received "many accounts of vote rigging" in connection with the poll, it added.

Edited April 15, 2014 by MistyRonin

[nodunit 397]

Dan;2668535']Tell me about it' date=' and they are supposed to be aviation reporters too....[/quote']

Better to then say "Plane shot down" and not include a nationality, they report and not do the research sure BUT people listen to them and far too many take what they read to heart, this is how you start false rumors and gossip.

[akm74 1]

I don't know if you have military experience, but 4 dead ( which still have to be proven were unarmed ) in this kind of circumstances, its admirably. If you want we can check past situations in Russia or the rest of the world and contrast.

In Crimea ? For example ?

Of course, that's why I said that I don't know if they are Russians or Ukrainians, or else.

Can you tell difference between English speaking person from New Zealand and English speaking person from UK ? BTW, there are not many Russian in Ukraine. Its Russian speaking Ukrainians. It like constantly call peoples from Quebec French. Edited April 15, 2014 by AKM74

[mistyronin 1181]

In Crimea ? For example ?

Legally Crimea is still Ukrainian, and what happened there was a Russian invasion.

We are talking about internal insurrections ( part of a country take war weapons and fight the government ). Or you are trying to tell me that what is happening in Eastern Ukraine is a Russian invasion?

BTW I'd be really happy if you answer my past questions:

Would you mind telling me, what would happen in Russia if in one of its regions, people armed with assault rifles start seizing buildings and taking control of cities? What would the Russian government do?

And what if that people were wanting independence like Chechnya , or even asked to be annexed to another country, like US or Canada. What would the Kremlin do?

[Beagle 684]

Legally Crimea is still Ukrainian, and what happened there was a Russian invasion.

We are talking about internal insurrections ( part of a country take war weapons and fight the government ). Or you are trying to tell me that what is happening in Eastern Ukraine is a Russian invasion?

BTW I'd be really happy if you answer my past questions:

Laws do not mean anything if you can't enforce them. That's the oldest law of all of them. Even some western governments do not follow their own öawn and they get away with it because the people can't enforce the laws upon those governments. If they try they are called separatist or terrorist or simply mentally disturbed. Edited April 16, 2014 by Beagle

[akm74 1]

Legally Crimea is still Ukrainian, and what happened there was a Russian invasion.

Sorry, i don't know how it related. You may miss my point about "acceptable casualty rate"

Would you mind telling me, what would happen in Russia if in one of its regions, people armed with assault rifles start seizing buildings and taking control of cities? What would the Russian government do?

sure, if they have always drank president they will try resolve it by force. Then, after 2-3 years of bloodshed, Chechnya will still get independence under Khasavyurt Accord. Chechnya preserved its de facto independence until 1999 , til they decided to invade neighboring region and blow 2 apartment building in Russia.

BTW, i pick Chechnya as easy example because they was part of Russia empire for many hundreds years. Not simply gifted by one person without any legal approval (even for USSR time) at all"

Do i answer you question ?

[mistyronin 1181]

Laws do not mean anything if you can't enforce them. That's the oldest law of all of them.

Yeah it's clearly what Putin's actions are based on: "as no one can stop me I can do whatever I want".

That is precisely the logic beyond all Hitler's actions, and all the dictators and tyrants. "The law of the strongest", he used to quote studies about territoriality of monkeys. But that's what difference precisely humans than animals, the ability to dialog and reach agreements.

BTW maybe you Beagle can also answer this:

Would you mind telling me, what would happen in Russia if in one of its regions, people armed with assault rifles start seizing buildings and taking control of cities? What would the Russian government do?

And what if that people were wanting independence like Chechnya , or even asked to be annexed to another country, like US or Canada. What would the Kremlin do?

- - - - -

Sorry, i don't know how it related. You may miss my point about "acceptable casualty rate"

I was trying to compare between to similar situations, internal insurrections. Compare a internal insurrection and how countries fight them, and a external invasion is IMO not comparable

sure, if they have always drank president they will try resolve it by force.

What about with a sober president? Because Putin is one of the main allies of Al Assad in Syria, and supports all his actions.

Syria its interesting because is a situation similar to Ukraine. A civilian unrest that turned into Civil War when the demonstrators took weapons and the government used all kinds of weapons and means to crush the insurrection.

Edited April 16, 2014 by MistyRonin