Ukraine General

[Beagle 684]

ZDF scandal: Reports on behalf of Kiev?

Free independent press you say?:rolleyes:

People try to stop military convoy moving to to Donetsk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJk6bNcClk4

The Dilemma of german Administration ( I can't call it a Government anymore) currently is... they do not really want to disgruntle any side...neither Russia nor the US and Kiev. The Ex-Chancellor Schröder ist currently jumping loops to hold he german=russian relation up high. All the outrage about Crimea so far is just for political show.

Speech and action rarely go the same way in the "free world".

Having the same politicians for more than a decade (or three decades in the case of Minister of Finance W. Schäuble) in the same positions is not bringing us any stability...just stagnation.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Beagle

[Beagle 684]

Some Anti-Kiew Propaganda from ARD, please use a translator. German Jounalist have evidence that Berkut snipers did not shot at People at Maidan and the whole trial against the 12 berkut members is a made up show trial.

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/maidan-schuesse102.html

[ProfTournesol 956]

Some Anti-Kiew Propaganda from ARD, please use a translator. German Jounalist have evidence that Berkut snipers did not shot at People at Maidan and the whole trial against the 12 berkut members is a made up show trial.

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/maidan-schuesse102.html

So, is he independant or manipulated ;)

[spooky lynx 73]

In case of being anti-maidan surely manipulated by Putin.

[mistyronin 1181]

In case of being anti-maidan surely manipulated by Putin.

Nope, mainly the media that is more manipulated by Putin is the Russian one, but not the Ukrainian ( except Crimea ).

I think that there are no doubts that in certain parts of Ukraine there are strong pro-Russian feeling, and even anti-maidan that are not Russian. The problem is the way to defend them.

I'd understand if people complain, and peacefully demonstrate against the actual government. But at least until the national elections we are not gonna know who is gonna rule Ukraine. So if in a couple of years, the Ukrainian gov oppress the Russian minorities ( use violence, and make impossible any other way but separation ), I'd understand if they try to breakaway peacefully.

The Russian invasion of Crimea has made that the situation escalates very badly. Putin wanted to destabilize the zone, to distract Russian national opinion of his intends to become an eternal president ( and also about his faults ). Edited April 10, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

I can´t take anybody serious who asks for Yanukowitch to be President again after it has clearly been established that he is a corrupted prick.

Also who was it who claimed that people can´t organize anything by themselves? Well, who brings all the food to the protesters of Donetsk?

[spooky lynx 73]

The problem is that Yanuk's current opponents and rivals belong to the same corrupt type. Poroshenko, Grigyan aka Timoshenko etc. All them are either oligarchs or former politicians (who have their own dirty deeds).

[Tonci87 163]

I know that! Do you think Putin and his puppets are any different? Or other politicians in Europe? They are all the same scum.

[maturin 12]

The problem is that Yanuk's current opponents and rivals belong to the same corrupt type. Poroshenko, Grigyan aka Timoshenko etc. All them are either oligarchs or former politicians (who have their own dirty deeds).

None of them can hold a candle to Putin.

[spooky lynx 73]

I know that! Do you think Putin and his puppets are any different? Or other politicians in Europe? They are all the same scum.

I know that too. That's why I can't understand maidan and ruining remains of already weakened economy. Elections had been planned this year, that was a matter of several months, so people could have peaceful and legal way to change 'thief Yanuk' instead of wrecking the whole country. You may say elections would be corrupted but I'd say all the gatherings and activities may be used not for maidan but for supervising election comissions and bulletins count. That would help a lot.

Meanwhile Harkiv protesters caught 'unpolite man' wearing uniform of "Sokol" special unit (watch from 0:45).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9mSvoN2OWA

[Amra 10]

I know that! Do you think Putin and his puppets are any different? Or other politicians in Europe? They are all the same scum.

You may call your leaders scum, and I believe they are. But why do you think we in Russia will ever agree with your low opinion about our leader? Why do we always hear "Putin this, Putin that" from west (hint "far away people that don't know shit about Russia and most of them never been here") with stubbornness worthy the better cause?

[spooky lynx 73]

Why do we always hear "Putin this, Putin that" from west (hint "far away people that don't know shit about Russia and most of them never been here") with stubbornness worthy the better cause?

I suppose it's simple butthurt, because at least here I don't see much critics from members from countries forming base of EU. But tons of panic and anger from citizens of states that unfortunately feel not very well in case of economics and who cry about 1939 'never forget never forgive such horror' but happily forget about own sins happened just year earlier.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I suppose it's simple butthurt, because at least here I don't see much critics from members from countries forming base of EU. .

You should.

[batto 17]

[mistyronin 1181]

I suppose it's simple butthurt, because at least here I don't see much critics from members from countries forming base of EU. But tons of panic and anger from citizens of states that unfortunately feel not very well in case of economics and who cry about 1939 'never forget never forgive such horror' but happily forget about own sins happened just year earlier.

I have spoken recently with people from different parts of Europe about the subject ( mainly friends and family ), for example from Sweden, Greece, Spain and France, and all are really worried about Putin's new policies and strategy. Here in Finland is quite a trending topic.

Mainly the feeling, is that Putin is becoming more and more autocratic ( dictatorial ), and people fear that this kind of "free pass" for invasions which reminds of regimes like the Third Reich or recently Serbia will lead Europe to another Cold War.

All that it's quite funny, because half a year ago, with Putin actions on the Syrian crisis, were seen as positive; with Sochi Olympic Games and so on, the feeling was that Russia wanted to open itself to the world, there were even talks here about a free EU visa for Russian citizens. But all that was ruined by Putin's imperial attitudes.

I think the point is that Russia was able to choose the democratic majority of the world or the autocratic minority like North Korea, and seems that Putin choose the latest.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

( BBC ) Putin warns Europe of gas shortages over Ukraine debts

Meanwhile, Nato has unveiled satellite images it says show some 40,000 Russian troops near the Ukrainian border in late March and early April, along with tanks, armoured vehicles, artillery and aircraft.

Here there are the NATO photos from, allegedly, Russian Forces in Ukraine's border.

Edited April 11, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography ( remain -> reminds )

[akm74 1]

you can't see the forest for the trees...

[Tonci87 163]

You may call your leaders scum, and I believe they are. But why do you think we in Russia will ever agree with your low opinion about our leader? Why do we always hear "Putin this, Putin that" from west (hint "far away people that don't know shit about Russia and most of them never been here") with stubbornness worthy the better cause?

Because he is.

Do you know how he lives?

Do you care that he circumvented your national constitution by putting his puppet Medvedjev into office so that he can become president again? (by that alone he has proven to be antidemocratic)

Is it OK to jail your opposition and journalists who dare to speak against you?

So yeah, you can say everything you want but Putin is scum. Dangerous scum.

[arttem 1]

@AKM74, Spooky Lynx, Amra

Camrades please calm down. Do not react so violently.

[scrim 1]

You may call your leaders scum, and I believe they are. But why do you think we in Russia will ever agree with your low opinion about our leader? Why do we always hear "Putin this, Putin that" from west (hint "far away people that don't know shit about Russia and most of them never been here") with stubbornness worthy the better cause?

Because we'd like to believe that our fellow human beings who live in Russia would actually perhaps one day get up and do something about the regime that is perpetrating serious crimes in your name? Is that too naïve?

And seriously, I would not have written the "hint" part if I were you, 'cause you know, that's what you do yourself in every single post you've written in this topic so far.

[USSRsniper 0]

But at least until the national elections we are not gonna know who is gonna rule Ukraine.

That one is easy question to answer, with all the scum running for presidency in Ukraine. EU should not be surprised when some of the money they sent to Ukraine will simply vanish.

Edited April 10, 2014 by USSRsniper

[akm74 1]

Because he is.

Do you know how he lives?

No he is not. His real rating higher then most of your leaders combined. If you think we can freely express what we think about them... then we will. Not sure you will like it. Let ask moderators if we can ?

Edited April 10, 2014 by AKM74

[scrim 1]

Oh, astonishingly surprising! You get high ratings when your regime takes over the news medias and the judiciary system? Who would've known?

Since when do ratings mean he's a good guy? Hitler had great ratings, as did Mussolini. The reason politicians in the Western world have considerably less black and white ratings isn't because they're worse, it's because of the same reason the West is called the Free world. Because we don't imprison you if your newspaper prints an article critical of the government.

[maturin 12]

Putin is truly a popular politician supported by the majority of the country. That's a fact. Of course, it's fact that owes a lot to complete government control of the television media (in the politically-irrelevant digital and print media, Russians can and do say whatever they want about the government), which caters to the biases of an isolated population that lives in constant fear of re-living the 1990s. The re-writing of history is well underway, in order to get a handle on the next generation of internet users. You also have very well-funded 'astro turf' internet activism and organized political indoctrination of youth by United Russia-controlled programs. (Putin's party itself is not particularly popular.)

Anyways, that doesn't make Russia much worse than Italy, I must say.

The main difference between East and West, as relates to approval ratings, is that Putin has successfully made it impossible for any challenger to arise, in a society that sees no value in opposition to begin with. There's no one else to vote for, and yet there is a palpable presence of worse alternatives to Putin. So you might as well support the guy who increases your pension every couple of years and makes you feel good about your childhood memories of pioneer camping trips and WWII movies. Russians are (for clear historical reasons) massively cynical about the ability of government or socially-active citizens to make their country better, so they settle for the devil they know. Viable alternative models from other countries are systematically discredited consciously by the state-run media, or accidentally by cultural miscommuncation (at many points of contact from travel abroad to pop music videos). Or didn't all you Europeans and Americans realize that you live in a debauched hellscape of negro gangsters, ruled by your godless fascist elite that wants you to raise your children as sodomites?

Russian society is still traumatized by the '90s. It can't envision a country where the elite is anything but endemically corrupt, unaccountable and heavy-handed. It has always been that way. On the other hand, since the presence of oppressive limousine-riding bastards is inevitable, the bastards might as well be strong leaders who will regulate society forcefully and keep the lawlessness of the '90s from coming back. It's not a dealbreaker if the current political order is really just the ultimate synthesis of Putin's circle and the most corrupt and rapacious vultures of the post-Perestroika feeding frenzy. Organized crime is mostly dead, because it turned into government.

Lastly, you have an imperial nationality whose recent history is nothing but disasters and shame, possessed by a virulent streak of megalomania that covets every ounce of social and ethnic prestige, while admitting no historical misdeeds and expecting gratitude from all its most aggrieved neighbors. And so society has a deep-seated need to stop feeling shame about its history, and is ready for any lies that will justify its pride. That presents a powerful politician with a lot of ways to score points. And Putin has done so, right down along the line. In truth, he deserves his popularity. But in doing so, he has dug himself so deep that he will never be able to leave office alive.

Edited April 10, 2014 by maturin

[Amra 10]

Oh, astonishingly surprising! You get high ratings when your regime takes over the news medias and the judiciary system? Who would've known?

Since when do ratings mean he's a good guy? Hitler had great ratings, as did Mussolini. The reason politicians in the Western world have considerably less black and white ratings isn't because they're worse, it's because of the same reason the West is called the Free world. Because we don't imprison you if your newspaper prints an article critical of the government.

There is one detail which makes it hard to talk with you guys. You say something absolutely untrue. Okay - you may be misleaded, nobody knows everything, you don't live in Russia, etc. Then you keep repeating the same thing despite the obvious absurdity, build all your subsequent arguments around this lie. And in a couple of posts your opponents with amusement try to prove they aren't camels but humans. I hope you get the "comparison".

Now please tell me who has been imprisoned in Russia for newspaper article critiquing the government?

[arttem 1]

Now please tell me who has been imprisoned in Russia for newspaper article critiquing the government?

He was.