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I can't understand what you mean.

I guess he means that you need troop helis too in order to get troops on the ground and not just gunships

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Unless those ~20 troop carriers are the only helicopters the Russian military has, it's a pretty ridiculous argument to begin with.

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Unless those ~20 troop carriers are the only helicopters the Russian military has, it's a pretty ridiculous argument to begin with.

I'm speaking about photos in mass media and that's all. Russia have many things in Army and what? There is no need to place em near the border to atack, or invade. If Russia start atack it will be absolutly not important do we have anything near the border or not. Think about that.

P.S. 3 days ago, 50! MiG-29/Su-27/MiG-31 flied along border of Finland and launched rockets to the overall 100 training targets. "Ladoga-2014" training exercises. Good occasion to cry about invade. But something wrong, Finland keep silence.

Edited by ArtTem

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I can't understand what you mean. If the existing air defence is working (and it's working), Mi-8/Mi-17/Mi-26 never go in the first attack echelon. And 25 Mi-8 is not enough to invade Ukraine or one of the province. 25 Mi-8 can carry 350 soldiers. It's not enough. We are speaking about Ukraine, not Mogadishu or Afghanistan. Where you can do anything you like on BlackHawk.

For one side if it's true that Putin wants to invade Eastern Ukraine ( we still don't know ). He would hide the main assets ( why would you show your strong points so the enemy can prepare? ). So if he is gonna use Hinds and other gunships, he may have them in a short safe distance ( from 100 to 800 km ), so they can be deployed in few hours.

It's clear that the first step would be to neutralize the air and ground defenses ( spec ops and jets ), and then the proper invasion force: ground units and cargo helos ( escorted by jets and probably gunship helicopters ); maybe some forward deployment of paratroops to capture key points.

Anyway all that if he decides to go for a full force invasion, but maybe he would try somethng more subtile like in Crimea, as he has the support of part of the population.

Edited by MistyRonin

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short safe distance ( from 100 to 800 km )

600 km :)

maybe he would try somethng more subtile like in Crimea, as he has the support of part of the population.

Politeness - is the trend of 2014 year in Rus army. :)

But i'm agree with you - we don't know.

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I'm speaking about photos in mass media and that's all. Russia have many things in Army and what? There is no need to place em near the border to atack, or invade. If Russia start atack it will be absolutly not important do we have anything near the border or not. Think about that.

P.S. 3 days ago, 50! MiG-29/Su-27/MiG-31 flied along border of Finland and launched rockets to the overall 100 training targets. "Ladoga-2014" training exercises. Good occasion to cry about invade. But something wrong, Finland keep silence.

That reasoning only holds up if it is coupled with bizarre amounts of naïvety and ignorance. Yes, the Finnish didn't shout invasion. But then again, it's not like Russia invaded and annexed 10% of their country less than a month ago, now is it? If you missed out on that quite gigantic difference of contexts, you must've been living completely isolated from news medias for the last few months.

And despite your belief to the contrary, it actually is necessary to move ones military resources closer to a country prior to invading it. See, a hundred modern attack helicopters won't do much good in an invasion of Ukraine if they're stationed in Siberia. And apparently, the Russian military doesn't agree with your theory about not having to move units to the border in preparation for an invasion, as that's exactly what they did prior to the "Georgian provoked" war of '08. Under the claims of an exercise. Like now.

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I have the mania to always check the press information from different sources

I'm trying to find proof for that:

German chancellor against imposition of economic sanctions on Russia

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/725463

And for that:

Hungary opposed to economic sanctions against Russia

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-hungary-idUSBREA2R0CD20140328

Edited by ArtTem

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An opinion article from the The Moscow Times: Why Russians Long for the Soviet Union

President Vladimir Putin set the aggressive tone of the debate in his Crimea speech two weeks ago by calling the new Ukrainian authorities "neo-Nazis and Russophobes." Moreover, he called Russians who are opposed to the annexation "national traitors," a term that Hitler notably used against those who disagreed with him. His words were instantly echoed in official mass media and pro-Kremlin blogs.

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An opinion article from the The Moscow Times: Why Russians Long for the Soviet Union

Sanoma Independent Media,

Formed in 1992 in Russia by the Dutch journalist and the publisher Derk Sauer,

current owner Jean-Emmanuel de Witt,

one of the partners of The Wall Street Journal.

We remember everything. :) But, well, democracy.

---------- Post added at 21:04 ---------- Previous post was at 19:38 ----------

American Senator Feinstein considers possible the diplomatic settlement of the situation in Ukraine. (The head of the special Committee on intelligence of the U.S. Congress)

Feinstein essentially acknowledged that the issue of the Crimea solved. “Anyone who studies the history of Russia, knows how important the Crimea was and remains for Russia, " she said. - Crimea is mostly Russian. “The referendum was held. It already doneâ€, - the Senator said, adding that “Ukraine is another question.â€

EURONEWS http://ru.euronews.com/newswires/2427338-newswire/

---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:04 ----------

Evpatoria. Base A-4519, anti-aircraft missile regiment.

The Ukrainian military become the Russian military:

http://youtu.be/ojyb4CIIg9M

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:21 ----------

Washington (CNN) - Some U.S. lawmakers are ready to say that it’s futile to try to persuade Russia to give up control of Crimea.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee

"The Crimea is dominantly Russian, a referendum was passed. That, I think, has been done," Feinstein said on CNN's "State of the Union."
There was an expressed will of people living in Crimea to become a part of (the) Russian Federation at that moment when there was an unconstitutional takeover of power with the use of force in Kiev," Kislyak said.
"It makes absolutely no sense for a diplomat to say that you have to accept what happened on Maidan (Kiev’s main square) as reality but what happened in Crimea is not reality," Lavrov.

CNN http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/30/senate-intel-chair-crimeas-gone/

---------------------------------------------------

---------- Post added at 23:01 ---------- Previous post was at 23:00 ----------

Emm, mmmm, it's seems that mr. John Forbes Kerry wanna little war or what he want only he knows. Strange news coming. They was speaking for 4 hours and result is zero. :(

Edited by ArtTem

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[/color]Evpatoria. Base A-4519, anti-aircraft missile regiment.

The Ukrainian military become the Russian military:

I'm sorry if that may offend someone.

But in my homecountry if someone that has sworn an oath of allegiance to the country then joins another country's military, is committing the crime of treason ( which is the worst in the penal code ); specially if that happened in a middle of a confrontation ( in this case military invasion ).

Besides that how can now Russian commanders trust in troops that have been proofed unreliable, and that may turn shifts under pressure.

Emm, mmmm, it's seems that mr. John Forbes Kerry wanna little war or what he want only he knows. Strange news coming. They was speaking for 4 hours and result is zero. :(

IMO if the international community accept that Crimea is part of Russia, would open the door to any other country in the world to invade and annex whatever they want and then fake a referendum under military supervision. Which would be a dire precedent.

Accept that behavior has been proved wrong in the past, it was the main cause of the First World War.

Some of the most important long term or structural causes were the growth of nationalism across Europe, unresolved territorial disputes, an intricate system of alliances, the perceived breakdown of the balance of power in Europe, convoluted and fragmented governance, the arms races of the previous decades, previous military planning, imperial and colonial rivalry for wealth, power and prestige, and economic and military rivalry in industry and trade
Edited by MistyRonin

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Besides that how can now Russian commanders trust in troops that have been proofed unreliable, and that may turn shifts under pressure.

They can, believe me.

“Anyone who studies the history of Russia, knows how important the Crimea was and remains for Russia" - she said. - "Crimea is mostly Russian". Senator Feinstein

---------- Post added at 05:41 ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 ----------

any other country in the world to invade and annex whatever they want

I'm sorry if that may offend someone.

It's hard to do without US permission to any country.

Crimea wasn't invaded. It was a defence operation. Nobody was killing smbd. And referendum was maded without gun power. For example Vice news video about referendum. Can you show me there any soldiers? I think that Semyon wouldn't pass by such opportunity to show invaders who are force everybody to vote.

Where all these reporters from the BBC and CNN? Why they don't show to us how people suffer in the Crimea? Why they don't dumped on us a tons of reports, how people asking to save them from invaders? There was 600 of reporters from worlds massmedia. And there are all of them?

Only Semyon running from coner to coner and trying to make a news from nothing.

I can tell you whats the problem, it's hard to make a report about invasion - without blood, deaths, crimes and invasion.

Each step of radikals, each crime in Kiev is filmed by mass media. And where is Crimea? Nothing, just boring footage with some horror text.

Edited by ArtTem

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They can, believe me.

“Anyone who studies the history of Russia, knows how important the Crimea was and remains for Russia" - she said. - "Crimea is mostly Russian". Senator Feinstein

They betrayed the oath that they voluntarily took ergo they are legally traitors. And we will see if they have to fight their former mates, families and friends how they react.

No matter what a US senator says. For the same reason Germany should recover Prussia, same Spain with Gibraltar, and a long etc. All European countries have rights over other lands, where there are people with their same culture.

Crimea wasn't invaded. It was a defence operation. Nobody was killing smbd. And referendum was maded without gun power.

Legally invasion means that foreign illegal forces occupy it. Which is what happened, it doesn't require violence ( although there was low intensity violence as we can see in any video of how the Russian occupying forces used violence to remove the legal troops from their barracks ).

Another thing are moral ground, that everyone can have different opinions. In that grounds I think that every nation has right to self determination ( obviously democratically, peacefully and without foreign intervention ).

The fact is that legally Crimea is part of Ukraine, and Russia occupied it with their armed forces without the Ukraine's parliament permission ( that is legally an agression ). Not only that, under military invasion and with soldiers and vehicles on the streets they created a vote where all the options favor Russia, they also controlled the media; ergo democratically that referendum has the same value as the cover of the TIME magazine.

I don't understand the obsession with the US. Truth is that all the countries in the world agreed to play with certain rules that Russia has ignored. US would also suffer the consequences if starts and expansionism policy invading their neighbors.

If that is to be allowed, there could be hundreds of wars only in Europe ( that's what happened in WW1 and also before the WW2 ) as I said all countries have similar issues and can use the same pretext to occupy / invade their neighbors.

Edited by MistyRonin

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They betrayed the oath that they voluntarily took ergo they are legally traitors. And we will see if they have to fight their former mates, families and friends how they react.

One notice/remark. That 15000 Ukrainian soldiers have a support of their families. If their families wouldn't support them, these events would be absolutely impossible.

It's very hard to judge that situation. Because for that you need to know the history of Russia and Crimea deeper and mainly what's going on with peoples there, with all nuances and their thoughts. They never be a betrayals for Crimea people and their families.

Example. Your father was serving in USSR army in Crimea, you are serving now in Ukrainian (each 3rd soldier have such story there). You both know that it's a Russia land, wich one "full ..." gifted to Ukraine. And here come Russian forces... You see that government in big land is a team of bandits. Why not to try return history back? Huh. About what betrayal you are talking? It was their decision. Not mine decision. They done, what they want to be done.

I can understand when anybody condemn Russia for that. But those people.... they done what they really want. Putin is guilty that he knew that this operation will be successful there. And it was successful. Because people of Crimea expect it and will interpret this as a chance to take it all back and they used it. Blame him? Yes. Blame them? No.

Edited by ArtTem

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I can understand when anybody condemn Russia for that. But those people.... they done what they really want. Putin is guilty that he knew that this operation will be successful there. And it was successful. Because people of Crimea expect it and will interpret this as a chance to take it all back and they used it. Blame him? Yes. Blame them? No.

In this case my opinon is just the opposite as yours.

They sworn oath voluntarily to Ukraine ( no matter if they were born in the Soviet Union, Cuba or the US ), so they responsibly is to keep it. They voluntarily didn't ( they could choose to return to non occupied Ukraine to continue their service, as some did ) ergo legally they are traitors. Only ones to blame are them ( unless they happen to be threaten with death, then it would be a bit more confuse ).

Putin offer was not elegant but, you can't blame him for the decision those soldiers took. As a professional soldier that I was, the most important value is to be loyal to your oath ( well in fact its the main difference between proper armies and mercenaries ).

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I'm sorry if that may offend someone.

It's hard to do without US permission to any country.

Crimea wasn't invaded. It was a defence operation. Nobody was killing smbd. And referendum was maded without gun power. For example Vice news video about referendum. Can you show me there any soldiers? I think that Semyon wouldn't pass by such opportunity to show invaders who are force everybody to vote.

You really believe this? I´ll tell you something. If this thing gets legalized, then Croatia has the right, no, according to the Russians even the duty to march it´s military into the Herzegovina and take it back into Croatia. I guess this wouldn´t be very nice for your allies the Serbians.

You don´t realize that many of Russias allies can be affected by something like this. Maybe even Russia itself. I don´t know how many Chinese live in the border regions in Russia, but maybe it is enough for China to "protect" them

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Regarding betrayal... Well, how will you name those servicemen who signed in newly formed ex-Yugoslavia and ex-USSR states' armed forces? All of them gave an oath to serve one country but then joined other military. And in many cases (especially in Yugoslavia and some ex-USSR states) they often broke an oath for sake of their nations' interests. So how could those countries trust these persons especially when they either deserted or ssbotaged their duty?

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Regarding betrayal... Well, how will you name those servicemen who signed in newly formed ex-Yugoslavia and ex-USSR states' armed forces? All of them gave an oath to serve one country but then joined other military. And in many cases (especially in Yugoslavia and some ex-USSR states) they often broke an oath for sake of their nations' interests. So how could those countries trust these persons especially when they either deserted or ssbotaged their duty?

Wow, wow, tsssssss, it is inconvenient to remember. ;)

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http://www.rp.pl/artykul/11,1098139-Rosja-wycofuje-stopniowo-wojska-z-ukrainskiej-granicy.html

Russia "progressively withdraws" troops gathered on the border with Ukraine - said the representative of the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine Oleksiy Dmytraczkiwski.

"This is probably related to the necessity of rotation of troops. Another hypothesis: it has to do with the negotiations between Russia and the USA," which took place on Sunday evening in Paris - said Dmytraczkiwski.

http://www.gazetaprawna.pl/artykuly/787600,lawrow-beda-konsultacje-w-sprawie-naddniestrza.html

According to Sergei Lavrov , the consultation on the status of Transnistria is the outcome of discussions with the head of American diplomacy John Kerry in Paris.

According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia, talks to be held in the 5 +2 format , with the participation of Russia and Ukraine , the OSCE, Moldova and Transnistria , as well as the United States and the European Union. According to Lavrov, the aim would be to establish a special status for the region - formally belonging to Moldova, but dominated by the Russian-speaking minority. The aim would be to ensure a "sovereign and neutral " Moldova.

Lavrov has once again opted for federalisation of Ukraine. In his opinion, the best option for the country, because its different regions have conflicting interests." For Ukraine still existed, inner compromise is needed" - quote the words of the Minister 's press service.

Lavrov said that he agreed with Kerry for greater autonomy for the Ukrainian regions. How it will happen - it's a matter of Ukraine - said the head of Russian diplomacy .

Edited by Rydygier

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Regarding betrayal... Well, how will you name those servicemen who signed in newly formed ex-Yugoslavia and ex-USSR states' armed forces? All of them gave an oath to serve one country but then joined other military. And in many cases (especially in Yugoslavia and some ex-USSR states) they often broke an oath for sake of their nations' interests. So how could those countries trust these persons especially when they either deserted or ssbotaged their duty?

The thing is simple, if they have sworn an oath to the country, that word must be respected until the country itself relieves you from it or the country is extinguished. With the USSR and Yugoslavia happened the second, obviously you can't keep an oath to a country that does not longer exist ( it got splited in different republics: Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, etc. )

Is like when you get married, for example in catholicism its supposed to be a union forever, but if your wife dies then you can marry again.

With the difference that fidelity to a country as a soldier, is legally binding.

- - - - - - - - -

( The Guardian ) Nigel Farage: I admire Vladimir Putin

Ukip leader praises Russian president's handling of Syria crisis, but describes Germany's chancellor as 'incredibly cold'
Edited by MistyRonin

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http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Oleksandr-Turczynow-nie-ma-zadnych-podstaw-do-federalizacji-Ukrainy,wid,16507484,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=112776

Acting President of Ukraine Oleksandr Turczynow declared that there is no basis for the federalization of the Ukrainian state. In this way, he referred to the concept of the Russian Foreign Sergei Lavrov.

- There is today in Ukraine no indication for federalization. Ukraine is a unitary state (internally consistent - PAP) - Turczynow told reporters in the village of New Petriwci in Kiev Oblast.

According Turczynov Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and Lavrov may submit any proposals, but for Russia. - It seems to me that the Russian authorities should deal with the problems of the Russian Federation, not the problems of Ukraine - he said.
He noted that Ukraine has the government and parliament and the citizens themselves decide on their fate. - Ukrainians decide both the form of a new constitution, and of the political system of the country - said Turczynow.
MFA of Ukraine rated on Sunday that these statements prove the fact that Russia do not care on the regulation of the situation in Ukraine. - Why is Russia itself does not fill federalism, which is included in the name of the country, with real content, not just declarative? Why not give greater powers to the national entities of the Federation (Russian), whose development is currently limited as brutally as in Tsarist and Soviet times? - Asked the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry.

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http://www.rp.pl/artykul/11,1098139-Rosja-wycofuje-stopniowo-wojska-z-ukrainskiej-granicy.html

Russia "progressively withdraws" troops gathered on the border with Ukraine - said the representative of the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine Oleksiy Dmytraczkiwski.

It's planned tactical exercises for VDV and others. By theirs study plan they making it each year in Belgorod. In march - april.

In 2012 they was making the same training in Belgorod region and nobody give a care about that.

In 2013 they was making the same training in Belgorod region and nobody give a care about that.

And here is the info about that year:

BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/russia/2014/03/140313_russia_military_exercise.shtml posted 13.03.2014

Ministry of defence http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11908969@egNews posted 13.03.2014

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ukraine - Ukraine never changes....FPDR

Pentagon sending ready-to-eat meals to Ukraine:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2581190/Pentagon-sending-ready-eat-meals-Ukraine.html

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/03/24/obama-chooses-not-to-send-weapons-to-ukraine.html

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/ukraine-crisis-obama-s-poll-numbers-drop-putin-s-climb

http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1071992?utm_medium=rss20

http://i.imgur.com/sQwkPMG.png (604 kB)

Ukraine shop: http://www.kidstaff.com.ua/tema-1713082.html

----------------------------------------------------------------

Head of the higher chamber of the Polish Parliament, the Senate, Bogdan Borusewicz to Ukrainian journalists in Warsaw.

"The first missed policies. It is for Ukraine question "to be or not to be"... the Third time we will not support "Pomarancheva revolution," he said.
"Russia has received the Crimea - we don't agree with it, but lost Ukraine. Unified concept Putin on creation of the Eurasian Union is no longer relevant," said the speaker.

(Ukraine national information agency) http://www.unian.net/politics/902269-v-polshe-govoryat-chto-ukraintsam-nado-gotovitsya-k-rezkomu-uhudsheniyu-jizni.html

Edited by ArtTem

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( BBC ) Russia troop reduction on Ukraine border welcomed

The Russian defence ministry said one motorised infantry battalion was withdrawing from the Rostov region.

I don't know how many people does a Russian battalion have, but I guess as many as 4 companies, so about 400 soldiers less.

If they are "supposed" to have at least 30.000-100.000 soldiers... Such a movement!

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( BBC ) Russia troop reduction on Ukraine border welcomed

I don't know how many people does a Russian battalion have, but I guess as many as 4 companies, so about 400 soldiers less.

If they are "supposed" to have at least 30.000-100.000 soldiers... Such a movement!

Battalion from 15th separate motorized rifle brigade, yes 400-500 people.

Just asked friends from Rostov. They was realy on training ground. :)

Edited by ArtTem

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It seems that after all, Putin was right. Evil powers are growing inside Ukraine, Darth Vader himself has made an step forward the presidential race, wanting to turn the Republic into an Empire and invade all the world commanding his stormtroopers.

( The Guardian ) Ukraine's Darth Vader bids to lead nation to the dark side

The-Ukrainian-Internet-pa-011.jpg

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God, i can't figure Putin as Skywalker (Luke), his father would suit him better :don 14:

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