Ukraine General

[akm74 1]

Look like it started in other eastern regions as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/01/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA1Q1E820140301

[ProfTournesol 956]

To me it's quite interesting that Putin's request was not to protect Russian people in the Crimea's region, but ALL Ukraine.

So basically he has green card to take whatever action he fancies in all Ukraine.

Look like it started in other eastern regions as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/01/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA1Q1E820140301

Yes, the Crimean case is closed i'm afraid. The main question is : what Putin does intend to do towards the eastern regions ?

[vilas 473]

Yes, the Crimean case is closed i'm afraid. The main question is : what Putin does intend to do towards the eastern regions ?

if Puting will only stop at border from 1953 than there should be no war, i hope that Yanukovtich will not be supported, if Putin will be supporting corrupted politician he will be s***, politician who stole from his own nation should be punished , keeping Yanukovich in protection in Russia would mean that he was Russian agent working against Ukraine

[comm_yuri 10]

The Kremlin has not yet openly confirmed that the troops that have seized Crimea are Russian. A Kremlin spokesman said Putin had not yet taken the decision to use force under the authorization granted by the upper house, and still hoped to avoid further escalation.

... and that's why you deploy massive numbers of troops on foreign soil Mr. President ? Crimea is still Ukrainian land despite the Russian claims.

All of you, friggin stop. "Protection of own citizens" in an environment where nothing radical, dangerous, violent or alike is happening, not to talk about 1 billion more important reasons, is no argument to invade a foreign nation and seize territories of that nation. This is a clear act of agression and has nothing to do with "protecting" anyone. What, is this a joke I'm looking at right now ?! are people really that stupid not to intervene ? if yes, than they basicaly give Kremlin a blanco check to seize any of their "claims" in future.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[sudayev 27]

The next moves are Khavrov and Donetsk. It will start from pro-putinist militiamen occupying strategic buildings and rest of the scenario will be identical like it 's happening in Crimea. Now these people in this region know the situation is unstable and their country is a bankrupt, they will prefer to be in richer Russia under the stable putinist regime. That's the part of their far sighted politics, Kremlin wants to expand to lands they lost during the fall of the USSR. Polish president Kaczynski while in Georgia back in 2008 said - "Georgia - today, tomorrow is Ukraine". For this act of open support of Georgia during the russian aggression he was punished.

For his brave action president Kaczynski was openly criticized by laughed by current elites vilas is mentioning in post #325 of this thread

Words of truth (in Polish)

And this is what these chauvinists are saying, the council of federation.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=pl&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114871,15548743,_Nie_oddamy_ogarnietego_dzuma_Krymu____Wiem__co_nalezy.html&usg=ALkJrhiLC2C7GLLEdpNRfks4dYDfO5x4KA

Edited March 1, 2014 by Sudayev

[akm74 1]

if Puting will only stop at border from 1953 than there should be no war, i hope that Yanukovtich will not be supported, if Putin will be supporting corrupted politician he will be s***, politician who stole from his own nation should be punished , keeping Yanukovich in protection in Russia would mean that he was Russian agent working against Ukraine

100% agree. Man who order to disarm police when they face 4000 thugs with Molotov cocktails, rifles and shotguns must be sentenced to live in prison at least. Hope Russian will trow him away for international court. I'm also hope Putin will stop in 1953 borders (and i have filing he will) If other Ukraine regions want to separate from new government, the have to do it by votes.

[ProfTournesol 956]

100% agree. Man who order to disarm police when they face 4000 thugs with Molotov cocktails, rifles and shotguns must be sentenced to live in prison at least.

Nice fairy tale. You may want to watch the videos again.

[comm_yuri 10]

100% agree. Man who order to disarm police when they face 4000 thugs with Molotov cocktails, rifles and shotguns must be sentenced to live in prison at least. Hope Russian will trow him away for international court. I'm also hope Putin will stop in 1953 borders (and i have filing he will) If other Ukraine regions want to separate from new government, the have to do it by votes.

maybe you should also perform a wedding in front of a Lenin statue ....

[akm74 1]

Nice fairy tale. You may want to watch the videos again.

i did , suggest you to do same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_oy3JZTYXY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBLcJNMYTgs

maybe you should also perform a wedding in front of a Lenin statue ....

I'm already married :-)

The next moves are Khavrov and Donetsk. It will start from pro-putinist militiamen occupying strategic buildings and rest of the scenario will be identical like it

is it exactly what they did in Kiev 1 week ago ? Only opposite....

Edited March 1, 2014 by AKM74

[vilas 473]

are people really that stupid not to intervene ?

as i said before, policians from almost all nations are corrupted and look only about their own interest, noone of politicians look at yours of my or any other interest , they do not care about any moral issues , they care only about bribes they get from this or another company who want something ,

count from economical point of view and from intersts point of view?

who will stop Putin and why (what for) ?

EU want cheap labour and take Ukrainian industry under hand but is not as determined as Russia which want their strategic point and also Ukrainian market and to show power "obey us this or other way or we will make you obey us",

EU press is full of media infos showing Ukrainians as "bad nazis", cause noone likes not his own patriots, cause usually patriots care about their nation interest, not other nation companies interests, so for both sides Ukrainian patriots are "bad", cause if they would win, Ukraine would be caring about their own economical interest unlike Yanukovitch or Timoshenko or others,

case of Timoshenko and case of Yanukovitch show - that both of them cared about personal huuuuuuuuuge money bribes, not about any usual Ukrainian citizen,

the same now, who will help Ukraine without earning on it big money but loosing money?

what neighbor?

Belarus ? no way, it is Russia-bis,

Poland ? who know when we gonna have our own Maydan, if our gov will say that country gonna do something which will totally harm our economy (every those politician conflict with Russia ends bad, cause Russia is our customer, if policians do their actions, usual Polish farmer has no money cause Russia doesn't buy our agricultural products), people already are angry cause Ukrainians wounded in Maydan are getting full medical help in Polish hospitals while native Poles have to wait in long queue to get to doctor , so Poles say "why the fuck when i pay taxes i cannot get to medical treatment in hospital while abroad citizen gets" , currently few hospitals took wounded Ukrainians here, people in internet are so angry about it as taxpayers,

Romania, Slovakia ? no way

USA ? conflict with Russia for country which doesn't have oil and money or will to change their own T84 production (giving jobs) with M113 and M60 Pattons from US retired vehicles park (not giving jobs for Ukrainians) ? Ukrainians are too poor to buy anything from USA,

Germany ? will Ukrainian tax payer go to unemployment to replace T84 tanks production by taking Leopard 2A4 ? Ukrainians are too poor to buy anything, so far German farm industry along with French and Spanish visited Russia to sell to Russia their pork, while our pork industry is stopped, Germany will not do anything to break their economical contacts with Russia,

who ?

don't be naive, noone in our goddamn corrupted evil world of politics will help anyone from moral causes, noone, politicians are satans, no more no less, if it was up to me , than noone would die except corrupted greed bad guys who rob their own nation (like Yanukovich and his coopeators, everyone in this topic seen his enormous houses, villas, palaces, golden WC and jewelery), i would personally wish that no Ukrainian man has any harm like no Russian person has any harm, cause i see that good and bad people are in all nations, only place where there is no good people are polician elites and economical elites, but truth is sad, no matter how we usual people would wish for peace and easy life for both national Ukrainians and Russians, then elites only look at financial bilans , in ideal world Yanukovitch would end ... at best in prison for corruption that made people to make riots against this corruption, poverty and all economical problems of Ukrainians who wish to live at normal stage of economical and social life , i am only afraid that "as usualy" bad guy will be protected and living in 52 milions dollar mension, and rest will shout at Putin and ...when cameras will be turned off, they will say sorry to him and kindly ask for buying their products

Quote Originally Posted by AKM74 View Post

100% agree. Man who order to disarm police when they face 4000 thugs with Molotov cocktails, rifles and shotguns must be sentenced to live in prison at least.

but look why they made riots - because of corruption,

police which beat their own people is guilty, why :

because policeman is clerk, you pay for his salary from your taxes, policeman must serve you, cause you are his employer,

policemen is not to protect corrupted government, police is to hunt for criminals, thieves, burglars, rapists, cheaters

look at Bulgaria - police supported anti-corruption riots and Bulgarian people changed corrupted government to new one

as tax payer you and I , we are bosses of police, governments and etc- you must understand it to understand democracy

you pay taxes - they must serve your safety, not against it

if minister is corrupted, his place is in prison, not your place in hospital beaten by policeman when you protested against bribes,

Ukrainian government was corrupted and acting against usual taxpayer , so Berkut defending this corrupted system done something bad, if Berkut would be honest they would arrest corrupted poltiicians saying they serve Nation, not politician

Edited March 1, 2014 by vilas

[Yairweinberg 1]

Well the Ukrainian president just said that any invasion into mainland ukraine will be a declaration of war... I dont understand how it could possibly not be but oh well.

[akm74 1]

Well the Ukrainian president just said that any invasion into mainland ukraine will be a declaration of war... I dont understand how it could possibly not be but oh well.

"mainland ukraine" is key word here. Glad they do understand Krym was not part of Ukraine in a first place. I ques they just google what "autonomous regions" really mean.

Edited March 1, 2014 by AKM74

[Spider 1]

Even if the official Ukraine forces don't engage Russian forces, what happens if the far-right groups do? They seem willing to provoke all-out war.

[vilas 473]

Even if the official Ukraine forces don't engage Russian forces, what happens if the far-right groups do? They seem willing to provoke all-out war.

noone will help them, one side will shoot them, other side will not react on this shooting knowing that such groups are dangerous to interests of both sides (Ukraine would not risk war with Russia),

ultra-right groups are characterized by the fact that:

- they want full independence from all sides (hurting economical interests of all),

- not take compromises,

- Polish nationalistic/patriotic groups hate them as much as politically correct, LGTB and left wing parties, so from neigbor they will not get any support,

- west see them as Nazis, just like Russia,

they will end miserably and helpless in case of making any serious actions, but of course this will make spiral cause than there will be more and more of them,

it is like Talibs, US though they can change culture of A-Stan, started fight with Talibs and ... there was more and more Talibs cause noone like foreign (and from other culture) soldiers on his land , neverending spiral in societies who have nothing to loose,

in case of Ukrainians they will probably do some harm, time will show

[comm_yuri 10]

"mainland ukraine" is key word here. Glad they do understand Krym was not par of Ukraine in a first place. I ques they just google what "autonomous regions" really mean.

I think someone has to google autonomous regions.

Autonomous region within souvereign state borders remains constitutionaly part of the whole nation. Foreign powers can't simply occupy them because the regional majority of ethnicaly different people call for seperation. Otherwise the Ruskis should have accepted the seperation desires of some of their North Caucasian regions instead of committing massacres. How does that compute with your logic ?

Vilas, if you and your Poland and the rest of EU simply give in to anything from Russia, they will first bite off the finger you offer them, than the entire hand, then the arm and then when they finaly reach your head, you will scream out ? EU just proved what a miserable farce on paper and in real life it is and what that fake luxury of living in Europe did to the mentality of people. I seriously hope Russia will start invading Europe so people open their damn eyes at least then and not just "condemn the actions of ....".

Anyway, what speces are those ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWGluhvL7JI#t=1069&hd=1

Edited March 1, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[scrim 1]

100% agree. Man who order to disarm police when they face 4000 thugs with Molotov cocktails, rifles and shotguns must be sentenced to live in prison at least. Hope Russian will trow him away for international court. I'm also hope Putin will stop in 1953 borders (and i have filing he will) If other Ukraine regions want to separate from new government, the have to do it by votes.

Disarmed the riot police facing thugs with Molotov cocktails you say? Oh, I guess that explains this picture, that I didn't see until the 29th of January:

http://i.imgur.com/AxYPkav.jpg (262 kB)

That's riot police with shotguns. Throwing Molotov cocktails. 'Nuff said?

Actually, I hope he stops at the even earlier borders, perhaps the 1938 borders? You know, the ones that didn't include parts of Poland (taken in cooperation with the somewhat right wing Germans) and Finland? Yeah, those things.

And regarding "separation" (it's much more commonly known as annexation) sure, why not? Screw international law, screw any law, screw civilisation! Let's all just live like chimps, whoever is the strongest gets whatever he wants. That, but with nukes. Why not?

[vilas 473]

then the arm and then when they finaly reach your head,

if you would read carefull my previouse posts ...

okay, so if you not have time to read what i wrote before:

- Poland has practically no industry left, we mostly import,

- Poland has no Polish owned banks, they are German, French, British, and those banks transfer profits abroad and we do not have profits nor taxes from them,

- supermarkets belong to German and French big corporations and pay no taxes,

- our law in EU must be first signed by EU commision,

- over 2 milions emigrated which is 5-6% of population, remained 14% official unemployment, Polish women giving birth to children ... in London,

- in last weeks gov. stole money from retire-founds and put them to budget founds cause state nationalized money we privately kept for retired found, http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/04/poland-pensions-idUSL6N0H02UV20130904

- our copper in ground was cheap sold to Canadian company and Polish companies do not dig copper in our land, i wonder if they also were released from tax duties, opposite to Polish businesmen which pay a lot of taxes,

- foreign citizens buy land in our country,

- even goddamn smoked sausage i love was forbidden by EU comission, http://www.wbj.pl/article-64701-polish-smoked-sausage-threatened-by-new-eu-rules.html

so Brussels tells me what to eat and what not to eat !

- on our independence day our reenactments groups or peoople walking with Polish flags were attacked by German Punks and ... police defended them, not us

etc. etc.

we already lost independence , economically and industrially we not exist, we are already under occupation of big corporations and banks and we already are slaves in our "formally Polish" country, but it is not Polish country when supermarket is from Germany, bank is from Germany, they do not pay taxes , Russia has nothing here to steal, rather rescue us by buying pork from farmers;) last week in TV there was about company which wants to hire workers if you know German language, but hey, it is company on Polish territory, so should speak Polish language if not use busines contacts (which is understable when you contact customers aborad, but for f*k sake, i am on Polish land and i do not want to speak other languge in my office, my grandfathers fought for independence during WW1, WW2 to speak Polish, to eat Polish food, to work in Polish company producing products that we can export and sell, not to import , and Polish copper to be giving taxes and places of work for Polish workers and Polish budget ),

so from point of view of many Poles we already lost independance, in economy , it is neocolonialism, we are cheap labour for British, German, French, Norway companies

Edited March 1, 2014 by vilas

[arttem 1]

Anyway, what speces are those ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWGluhvL7JI#t=1069&hd=1

- polite marines blocking the doors

- polite GRU guys enter the building

P.S. I'm just assume. I'm not a specialist in Russian forces.

Edited March 5, 2014 by ArtTem

[comm_yuri 10]

- polite marines blocking the doors

- polite GRU guys enter the building

where do you see marines ?

[arttem 1]

where do you see marines ?

Maybe here, but i can be wrong.

Edited March 5, 2014 by ArtTem

[comm_yuri 10]

http://i.imgur.com/3CwjpUB.png (429 kB)

ah ok, top left is a scared cop though :P

[akm74 1]

Even if the official Ukraine forces don't engage Russian forces, what happens if the far-right groups do? They seem willing to provoke all-out war.

They already try it last night in Kharkov. Did end up very well for them.

[vilas 473]

Comm_Yuri you asked me a question about eating finger to head, do you see the answer in previous post ? so do you understand that post-Soviet countries became now colonies for West (colony in meaning of : cheap labour, cheap resources, no taxing, import not export plus law and culture influence), few very respected professors of economy call our reality "being a colony" so if you love Ukraine and want Ukrainian independence - than looking at Polish mistake or rather traitor "reforms" - how to NOT be a colony - by keeping bank sector in national hands, by taxing foreign corporations the same taxes as local busines, by not allowing foreign companies to dig for natural resources and by keeping national industry as much as possible, trade with Russia, trade with West, trade with anyone who pays < this is way to be rich and be independent , otherwise Ukraine will be colony of EU or Russia

people in USA are proud to buy US product, people in Germany with proud buy German product, it is popular attitude in maaaaaany countries, but in colony when you raise your own flag on window than someone say "you are fascist",

the way to independence is building YOUR OWN wealth , not OTHERS', so keeping national busines and trading with those who want to buy your products, arguing with them will not make profits, if anyone spit on Russia, Russia doesn't buy products,

America can say milion of words how they support this or that country, question is how it rely to economy (job places, contracts) ,

Russia is close neighbor and client, for client we must be nice to convince him to buy from us when we do business ,

Germany do a lot of business with Russia, Poland stood for Ukraine and now noone buys our pork, German pork is being sold to Russia , Ukrainian businesmen also should not raise too much tension but do all to sell products and earn money from Russian consumers,

untill Ukraine is not colonized they have their chance, Poland is colonised, cause bank system is not ours so money for business is controlled abroad and noone will allow to set big industry which would be competitive to German, French, British one,

Russia is not hated by West elites cause Putin is breaking human rights, west press (mainstream media) hate Putin cause Putin build Russian economy and Russian business earn more and more and people there earn more ,

if big business ever cared about human rights, genocides in African countries (which have gold, jewels, oil, titanium and other raw materials ) would never happen, but history shows than when local gov. want to tax such corporations more, than suddenly war appear,

when in pro-US Arab countries there is slavery or women are kept by force (kidnapped women from East Europe held as sex slaves or some Black people held as slaves) noone in west media shouts about it as much as about few punk girls which pissed on Orthodox church and were imprisoned, so wealthy Arab Emirates, Dubai, all western companies build high sky scrappers, Ferrari sells cars, Rolls Royce and Bentley sells cars, noone care about human rights of slaves there, everyone want to sell them luxury yacht and golden watch full of jewels cause in Emirates they almost shit with 1000 dollars bills , what about human rights in India and forced labour in west companies, what about labour safety in companies which sew clothes and people often die there when facility collapses, Saudi Arabia ,why not invade them for human rights, aaa they bought US weapons and vehicles ?

countries to invade due to human rights: half of Arab world, half of Asia (where forced labor kids suffer) , half of Africa where human rights are far far far worse than in worst Russian place,

in Rwanda there was big genocide, milion people died in 1996 afair or 1994 ? anyway, who cared ? but companies selling weapons were sooooo happy,and mining industry for cheap resources,

so business doesn't care about any human right anywhere, it is all propaganda bullshit,

when they hate someone saying about breaking human rights in mainstream press, it means this someone is economical competitor

Edited March 1, 2014 by vilas

[Nicholas 5]

Sorry if this has been posted before:

Russian helicopters entering Ukraine.

[comm_yuri 10]

I read your post Vilas and I know all that you list down but those are honestly absolutly no arguments and has nothing to do with sustaining the nation's integrity as such and not everyone is thinking the same way as you do and it's not the same in every country. Sure, war is not a solution. We also don't simply start shooting at the Russians "just" because they install barbed wires faaaar beyond their imaginary border within uncontested territory but the people are pissed off and actualy do want the goverment to do something. You know how many businessmen left Russia or ceased to trade with Russia after the 2008 war ? - I don't think you are allowed to speak for all "ex-Soviet" nations. All of them have a different background, Ukrainians are trying to sustain something they have for decades now, others something they have for centuries, millenias. It doesn't matter though. If you don't give a dam about another nation's integrity, you don't give a dam about yours and that's when you loose it for me. Just because you fear to loose your profit, economic/production strenght you shouldn't do anything against your foreign consumers political / military aggression against your own nation ? Don't you see the paradoxon of Russia's desperate moves ? Seperatism will not just hurt someone's constitutional souvereignity and national feelings of the people they invade, it will lead to peoples starting seperating from eachother in all other regions around the globe, like for instance Russia. What Russia does next, might backfire in the future. I still can't believe they are actualy doing this.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Comm_Yuri