Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Putin could careless as long as Black Sea Fleet bases are still there and Ukraine does not become US puppet government.

We'll see but i'm sure Putin will do everything he can to help Yanukovich back to business.

[maturin 12]

And what year is it now? 2014, maybe its time to move on.

...:banghead:

Putin could careless as long as Black Sea Fleet bases are still there and Ukraine does not become US puppet government.

Do you not read the news? Never heard of the customs union?

[USSRsniper 0]

My grandfathers entire family starved in front of his eyes when he was 11, and he himself almost died. Yet he didn't go around hating Russians, or collaborating with Nazis. As far as communists concerned, you can imagine what kind of hate you would have after seeing your family slowly die in front of your eyes. Yet this fact alone does not give me even a right to be pissed off at Russians, you simply cannot let past define who you are.

[scrim 1]

And what year is it now? 2014, maybe its time to move on.

Yeah Ukrainians, stop faking, it was just a massive genocide! And hundreds of years of oppression and starvation. And tens of thousands of nationalists murdered.

Do you really think it is strange that some Ukrainians did work alongside the Nazis? They had been subjected to Russian rule for centuries, their quests for independence crushed time and time again brutally, the Czars had spent almost 200 years whipping up such extreme antisemitism that they can be directly credited with inventing the Pogroms, to be able to blame someone else for the never ending starvations. Then another massive genocide that the world ignored, along with many local Jews welcoming Communism because they were finally protected from being dragged out of their homes and bludgeoned to death over a trivial, or fictional matter.

Then all of a sudden along comes the Germans. The Red Army is swept aside by them in humiliating defeats, the NKVD hauls ass out of town after throwing grenades into their over crowded prison cells, and the German military doesn't immediately round them up and shoot them, which by the standards they were accustomed to, meant the Germans seemed all right. And then they present the Ukrainians with offers such as not shooting nationalists by the thousands, and the opportunity to take revenge at the Russians. And tragically enough, they both hate the Jews. Not until a while later do the Germans start treating them badly.

Given those circumstances, if anything it's to the credit of the Ukrainians that not every single one of them volunteered to collaborate.

Does this give them a reason to detest Russia? Well, let's put it like this: If Germany from day one had been acting towards Israel the way the Russians have to the Ukrainians since their indepence, I'm pretty sure the entire world would've stood on the side of Israel. The Ukrainians don't need the past to have a deep sense of mistrust against their neighbour; They only need the present.

[spooky lynx 73]

It will be a great mistake to give a support to Yanuk. He's just 'vegetable', seen as traitor by both pro- and anti-Russian crews in Ukraine.

[USSRsniper 0]

Do you really think it is strange that some Ukrainians did work alongside the Nazis?

No, but it does not give you right to turn to violence against people who have nothing to do with it. According to your logic Africans should unite and fight against white people who enslaved and exploited them. Ukraine should be worrier about the neighbor especially with Putin in power, but what average Russian citizens have anything to do with it?

Edited February 27, 2014 by USSRsniper

[scrim 1]

No, did I write that? No. To state it painfully clearly: The reason Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis is solely due to how extremely, horribly treated they had been by the Russians for centuries. What harm they did to Russians in the short time the collaborations occurred isn't even a fraction of what what Russians had done to Ukrainians for centuries, or even just during the lifetime of those who collaborated, so throwing a "THEY IZ NAZIS" fit about the Ukrainians for collaborating is BS if you don't then proceed to get a heart attack when you think about what Russians have done to Ukrainians.

Considering what you've said, your comparison with Africans shouldn't be that it'd be absurd for them to fight against white people for enslaving them, but that it'd be absurd for them not to "move on" from the enslavement, suppression, apartheid and various other versions of racism that they still encounter in places today.

Edited February 27, 2014 by scrim

[maturin 12]

No, but it does not give you right to turn to violence against people who have nothing to do with it.

...which hasn't happened. No one is demanding reprisals on the Russian population for the famines in the 30s. That would be idiocy. The current revolution is a struggle against an incredibly corrupt, authoritarian regime that only came to power because the global financial crisis ruined the economy and led to an atypical electoral result.

So let's have a historical lesson. What do the victims of mass murder like to happen to the murderers? Justice. When the actual perpetrators are all dead, justice takes on a more historical and symbolic character.

Think about how the Germans treat their Nazi past and the Holocaust. (Here's a hint: no rallying around statues of Hitler and nostalgically talking about how wonderful the Third Reich was all the time.)

Imagine if inhabitants of Leningrad had to live with a National Socialist Party taking part in the government of Pskovskaya Oblast.

Why are the Armenians obsessed with making the Turks admit to the genocide of the early 20st century? They don't expect reparations, and nothing the Turks do will bring back the dead? So what do they want? They want justice. They want the Turks to take responsibility for the actions of their nation, state the truth in history, show the world that what happened was wrong. That's the only way the collective healing can begin, and the victims can have some sort of hope that it will never happen again.

But none of that has happened in Ukraine. Instead, there is enormous praise lavished on the Soviet Union and Stalin all the time. Russian society never admits any guilt. Like all the accomplishments of the Soviet Union are wonderful glorious achievements of all the people, but all the genocide, repressions and slavery are just some unfortunate side effects that were the fault of a few criminals, and no one in society shares any of the responsibility for it. And if there were atrocities, then it was always the Russians suffering the most, and none of the suffering of other nationalities matters. Well I've got news for you. It makes a BIG difference when a foreign people murders your people. That's why Hitler was evil for killing over ten million Russians, but Stalin was a national hero for killing over twenty million.

I'm not actually of the opinion that the Soviet Union was 'as bad' as the Third Reich. (Stalinism was close, but under Lenin and after 1956 things weren't so bad.) But you have to understand that just like Hitler=Holocaust/Siege of Leningrad for Jews and Russians, USSR=genocidal famine for many Ukrainians.

It will be a great mistake to give a support to Yanuk. He's just 'vegetable', seen as traitor by both pro- and anti-Russian crews in Ukraine.

And therein lies the only hope for resolving this crisis.

The new government needs to avoid demonizing Russia and show the East how they are better than Yanukovich corruption.

Trying to be European is fine. But they can't make it a rejection of Russia either.

Really, I hope that the new government spends all their efforts trying to come closer to Europe. Because in point of fact, Europe isn't too anxious to have them. Ukraine will probably never be in the EU, and joining NATO would be criminally unworkable. Let the government get frustrated with the EU's reluctance, and find out how difficult integration will actually be. Let them get angry at the West, rather than kindling conflict inside the country.

Edit:

And scrim, you're really buying into the Ukrainian nationalist version of history here. It's more complicated than that. A lot of this oppression by Russians that you are talking about is something that nationalist thinkers have only 'noticed' retrospectively. 200 years ago it's just peasants and landlords, with the Tsar above everything. It doesn't really matter what small differences in grammar and folk customs there are at that point. And in most of the country, it still doesn't. There's no sharp division between Ukrainian and Russian cultural identity except that created by nationalism the and symbolic political disputes associated with it. The only really radical cultural differences exist in the far west of the country, where the population spent most of history outside of the Russian state and church, being oppressed by Polish and Lithuanian and Romanian and Ottoman nobles instead of Russian ones.

Edited February 27, 2014 by maturin

[USSRsniper 0]

...which hasn't happened. No one is demanding reprisals on the Russian population for the famines in the 30s. That would be idiocy.

Correct wording it didn't happen, yet. Situation is volatile right now. But I do hope issues will be resolved without any more violence.

(Stalinism was close, but under Lenin and after 1956 things weren't so bad.)

USSR after 1956 wasn't so bad apart from corruption.. Yanukovych is not the first person in government to steal money and not the last one.

Edited February 27, 2014 by USSRsniper

[spooky lynx 73]

And therein lies the only hope for resolving this crisis.

The new government needs to avoid demonizing Russia and show the East how they are better than Yanukovich corruption.

Trying to be European is fine. But they can't make it a rejection of Russia either.

Really, I hope that the new government spends all their efforts trying to come closer to Europe. Because in point of fact, Europe isn't too anxious to have them. Ukraine will probably never be in the EU, and joining NATO would be criminally unworkable. Let the government get frustrated with the EU's reluctance, and find out how difficult integration will actually be. Let them get angry at the West, rather than kindling conflict inside the country.

Google the pics of Yulia's or Krolik's mansions (BTW Yatsenyuk lives several hundred meters from famous Yanuk's Mezhigorye). It's rather hard to see leaders of the opposition better than Yanuk's corruption, moreover many of them were already involved in ruling the country and taken off from the manger. Their 'we are fighting against corrupted regime' should be translated as 'we are fighting for returning ourselves to power because we want that golden WC but pesky Yanuk got it faster than we!!!!1'. Unfortunately I hadn't seen any professional and not connected to any existing oligarch/politic thug clan/nazi group persons that may form really new team and become really new government. BTW the same goes to Russia. Yes, Putin's team is full of corrupt crooks but those who pretend to be an opposition are not better at all, and many of them were already in Duma or government in so calles 'wild 90-s' stealing and selling everything possible (Gaydar, Nemtsov, Misha '2%' Kasyanov etc). And those who may be real alternative are unfortunately too weak for struggle and taking full response for entire country.

[Tonci87 163]

Google the pics of Yulia's or Krolik's mansions (BTW Yatsenyuk lives several hundred meters from famous Yanuk's Mezhigorye). It's rather hard to see leaders of the opposition better than Yanuk's corruption, moreover many of them were already involved in ruling the country and taken off from the manger. Their 'we are fighting against corrupted regime' should be translated as 'we are fighting for returning ourselves to power because we want that golden WC but pesky Yanuk got it faster than we!!!!1'. Unfortunately I hadn't seen any professional and not connected to any existing oligarch/politic thug clan/nazi group persons that may form really new team and become really new government. BTW the same goes to Russia. Yes, Putin's team is full of corrupt crooks but those who pretend to be an opposition are not better at all, and many of them were already in Duma or government in so calles 'wild 90-s' stealing and selling everything possible (Gaydar, Nemtsov, Misha '2%' Kasyanov etc). And those who may be real alternative are unfortunately too weak for struggle and taking full response for entire country.

Sadly this is all true.

[USSRsniper 0]

Google the pics of Yulia's or Krolik's mansions...

You should also had mentioned that Yulia's daughter studied at London School of Economics and Rugby School in England. I am sure a lot of Ukrainians would love to have such salaries that would allow them to send their kids to study in foreign countries.

[spooky lynx 73]

You should also had mentioned that Yulia's daughter studied at London School of Economics and Rugby School in England. I am sure a lot of Ukrainians would love to have such salaries that would allow them to send their kids to study in foreign countries.

I hadn't mention houses of her daughter, mom and sister too:)

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/oleglurie_new/45868151/487680/487680_original.jpg (124 kB)

[ProfTournesol 956]

From what i've read, Timochenko has not much chance to be elected again at the head of the country.

[spooky lynx 73]

From what i've read, Timochenko has not much chance to be elected again.

Only if far-right crew will win during struggle between opposition parts.

[USSRsniper 0]

From what i've read, Timochenko has not much chance to be elected again at the head of the country.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/23/yulia-tymoshenko-she-s-no-angel.html if you want to examine her shady past.

[vilas 473]

Russian society never admits any guilt.

many societies do it , some societies would boil you in glass of water if you will dare to say about single mistake they done, so Russians are not the least one , at least they said sorry for Katyn in 2010

[maturin 12]

many societies do it , some societies would boil you in glass of water if you will dare to say about single mistake they done, so Russians are not the least one , at least they said sorry for Katyn in 2010

I was actually thinking about Katyn when I wrote that post. Props to Putin for that one. It's sort of a reminder that the actual nationalists are a hell of a lot worse than him.

Only if far-right crew will win during struggle between opposition parts.

Because Tymoshchenko is a nazi? Nice try.

There's been SO much lazy labeling of the opposition as nazis during this crisis. It's bullshit and a very common kind. Just ask Mr. Obama the socialist fascist. The most hilarious thing is the 'No to Islamic extremists!' sign held by those morons in the Crimea. Because someone claimed that there might have been like two Chechens on Maidan. And the Tatars are sick of being treated like black people in the 1920s American South. (Which should remind everyone that the only clear-cut genocide in Ukraine happened to them.)

When Zhirinovsky's in prison for extremism, give me a call and we'll talk about Svoboda.

Edited February 27, 2014 by maturin

[USSRsniper 0]

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Edited February 27, 2014 by USSRsniper
offtopic

[Maio 293]

Please drop the SS discussion and focus on current events :)

[maturin 12]

So if you volunteer in SS for good reasons you are not Nazi?

Probably not ideologically. The NKVD cooperated extensively with the Gestapo from 1939-1941, but I doubt many of them were Nazi sympathizers. And plenty of Russians collaborated during the war, too. I doubt that Andrei Vlasov was a Nazi, just a cowardly traitor who decided he didn't want to freeze to death fighting a losing war.

People in Ukraine simply had less loyalty to the USSR, which had killed them in the millions not ten years earlier, and an easier second option. Based on the achievements and atrocities of the two countries in 1941, with the Holocaust not general knowledge, the Third Reich looks like the vastly more civilized, humane, better-organized country. And it's not родина Ð¼Ð¾Ñ if I live in a periphery that's only recently been re-conquered, and none of my ancestors were citizens.

So blaming Ukraine for its past relations with the nazis is completely dishonest and hypocritical. Especially when the choice was between Hitler and Stalin. Whose regime was worse, really? As a historian and dispassionate observer, I say Hitler's, but at the time, there was no real difference for ordinary people. Whoever was less likely to murder your family next week.

[scrim 1]

Though many if not most of those in the SS were Nazis, joining the SS per se didn't mean you were one. And given how the Ukrainians had been treated by the Russians, I wouldn't have given a damn about how the uniform the Germans would give me looked if I was a Ukrainian back then and wanted to get back at the Russians for the Holodomor. Just how well educated do you think the average Ukrainian was about the politics and branches of the German military? I'll tell you: "FASCIST AGGRESSOR EVIL! STALIN AWESOME GOOD SAVIOUR OF US ALL!!!" is what would've been blasted at him by Communist party members and the propaganda films, if he'd been privileged enough to visit a cinema, and he'd be very well aware that the people spouting this propaganda at him were the ones who'd caused 7.5 millions of his fellow Ukrainians to starve to death, had blown up the churches, arrested and killed the journalists, the opposition, the even moderately wealthy/not starving land owners, the clergy, those the NKVD and Communist party members didn't like, the nationalists, and all those who had been arrested and executed just because of the institutionalized paranoia of the NKVD.

Sorry for the post, started writing it before the moderator notion was written.

[mistyronin 1181]

I'm afraid, I don't have much to add to this wonderful thread ( it's really nice to read different views from people around the globe ), and I'd like to give my two cents.

Having read diff sources of news ( from BBC to RIA Novosti ), and commented the situation with some of my friends ( I've a few russian friends, some americans and even a long time ukranian friend ); my perception ( right or wrong ) is that this is mainly a redistribution of influence in the world.

After the end of the Soviet Union, the US had been the hegemonic power in the world, but after the called "War on Terror" ( in mid-East and all the spying... ), they have globaly lost a lot of influence and credibility and their economy it's not in its best. That situation is that with a weak US, other countries are trying to fill the void of power, like China in the Pacific and Russia in eastern Europe ( each with their own characteristics ).

Said that, IMO Russia is trying to recover their influence over their former allies taking advantage of the ethnic Russians that are spread out all over the former Soviet Union. The idea of giving Russian passports to them so they can claim that they are defending their own citizens ( as it happened in Georgia ), reminds me of the german strategy at the beginning of the Third Reich with Czechoslovakia and Austria were they militarily occupied zones claiming that they were defending ethnic germans ( obviously I'm not comparing Putin with Hitler, just the "tactic" ).

To me it's quite curious that some Russians or some Russian-Ukrainians still think of Ukraine as a part of Russia, and want to create a big Slavic race country ( not an exaggeration, I'm quoting some of my Russian friends ).

It's somehow funny to see how some of my US friends lack of general culture ( specially in geography ) and are highly influenced by their media, but nonetheless I've also perceived the same or even higher degree of manipulation in my Russian friends. One of them even claimed that in Russia there was only one ethnic group / culture, and I had to told her about the Tatars, Sami, Chuvash, Ossetians, Chechens, Karelians, etc. Although I must also point that once you have a Russian friend, they are the most reliable of all ( at least judging from my experience ), they even bring me lots of gifts whenever they go to Russia.

[batto 17]

Little bit off-topic...

USSR after 1956 wasn't so bad apart from corruption..

I don't think that forced ideology, constant lying and exploiting part of post-war Europe for geopolitical reasons "wasn't so bad". I heard some former USSR general in some documentary saying that without 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia there could be WW3. I don't buy such geopolitical explanations. If people under regime weren't happy then there was no point in holding it except for the elite in charge of course. I'd also say that severe corruption and inferior economics in post-communist countries is in big part thanks to the communism (=> USSR elites) though I'm not gonna list reasons why now, it should be obvious. So yeah, USSR was bad until it collapsed.

And of course it's 2014 and I'm not trying put guilt on people today.

Edited February 27, 2014 by batto

[maturin 12]

I don't think that forced ideology, constant lying and exploiting part of post-war Europe for geopolitical reasons "wasn't so bad". I heard some former USSR general in some documentary saying that without invasion of Czechoslovakia there could be WW3. I don't buy such geopolitical explanations. If people under regime weren't happy then there was no point in holding it except for the elite in charge of course. I'd also say that severe corruption and inferior economics in post-communist is in big part thanks to the communism (=> USSR elites) though I'm not gonna list reasons why now, it should be obvious. So yeah, USSR was bad until it collapsed.

Read the posts in context. By 'not so bad,' USSRsniper and I meant 'not so bad compared to the Stalinist '30s and Nazi Germany.'

It's possible to say that the USSR had positive elements of culture and economy and helped its citizens, who had some reasons to be proud of it. I don't think anyone here is going to defend its foreign policy in Europe, but there's no comparison with Hitler's regime. We rightly condemn any praise of that system, which is irretrievably tainted by the Holocaust, WWII aggression and its totalitarian politics.

On the other hand, the USSR after Stalin was only arguably totalitarian, and its foreign policy was only one example of the sort of imperialism, interventionism and warmongering that was quite common in the second half of the 20th century. Just your average shitty authoritarian state, with fifty times the population and a nuclear arsenal.

I often say that contemporary Russia has maintained too many flaws of the Soviet Union, while actively rejecting most of its positive ideas.

Edit: Oops, this is still sort of off-topic, isn't it.