oxmox 73 Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) The Dash Cam recording which I did post shows you really a "Holy Shit" situation and the video posted by @beastcat shows how civilian areas were hit. In the meanwhile the OSCE did investigate the incident and they come to the conclusion that the rockets were fired from seperatists controlled areas. The SMM conducted a crater analysis and its initial assessment showed that the impacts were caused by Grad and Uragan rockets. According to the impact analysis, the Grad rockets originated from a north-easterly direction, in the area of Oktyabr (19 km north-east of Olimpiiska Street), and the Uragan rockets from an easterly direction, in the area of Zaichenko (15 km east of Olimpiiska Street), both controlled by the “Donetsk People’s Republic†(“DPRâ€).At 13:02hrs and 13:21hrs the SMM heard again incoming MLRS salvos lasting for eight seconds, from an easterly direction. At a distance of 300 metres the SMM saw smoke above the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ checkpoint number 14 (8.9 km north-east of Mariupol city centre), just several hundred metres away from where the shelling had hit in Olimpiiska Street. http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136061 This war shows so irresponsible incidents, artillery/grad shelling or bombing inside major towns..... Edited January 24, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted January 24, 2015 This war shows so irresponsible incidents, artillery/grad shelling or bombing inside major towns..... Well, it's quite a constant since the invention of the indirect artillery. Usually civilians are evacuated ( like in the battle of Fallujah ). But it's not always. In any case the one responsible is who hides among the civilian population ( in this case the Russians ). And also who uses rockets against residential areas ( the Grad rockets have a huge dispersion area ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted January 24, 2015 They seem to have shelled Mariupol indiscriminatelly. Right into the civilian areas..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted January 24, 2015 They seem to have shelled Mariupol indiscriminatelly. Right into the civilian areas..... 30 dead civilians and around 100 wounded. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Well, it's quite a constant since the invention of the indirect artillery. Usually civilians are evacuated ( like in the battle of Fallujah ). But it's not always.In any case the one responsible is who hides among the civilian population ( in this case the Russians ). And also who uses rockets against residential areas ( the Grad rockets have a huge dispersion area ). Its quiete often the fact that civilians are victims in a war, everyone knows . As a side note, Falludjah for example was contaminated by ammunition types and the population has until nowadays problems with it, there are interesting documentary movies around. And when it comes to the Ukraine, I wonder aswell why rockets or artillery is used against residental areas. Residental areas are used aswell as firing positions like we have seen before. In addition not only rockets or artillery were used, aswell cluster ammunition against civilians and even incident(s) of bombings inside a town. Both sides in this war blaim each other and it seems both war parties have a skeleton in their closet. The last event in Mariupol is another tragedy, allegedly there are ukrainian troops at the east of Mariupol or is there zero defence left. Did they use the wrong coordinates and overshoot, or what was the purpose for shelling civilian areas... Edited January 25, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sudayev 27 Posted January 25, 2015 http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/01/24/ex-terrorist-leader-referendum-in-crimea-was-a-farce/ Igor "Strelok" Girkin admits about rigging Crimean election and receiving obvious help from Russia. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted January 25, 2015 The last event in Mariupol is another tragedy, allegedly there are ukrainian troops at the east of Mariupol or is there zero defence left. Did they use the wrong coordinates and overshoot, or what was the purpose for shelling civilian areas... Well seems that was intended. ( The Guardian ) Ukraine crisis: dozens die as rebels shell Mariupol Alexander Zakharchenko admits responsibility for attack speaking at memorial for those killed in bus attack in Donetsk “Today an offensive was launched on Mariupol. This will be the best possible monument to all our dead,†said Alexander Zakharchenko, speaking at a memorial event for those killed in a mortar attack on a trolleybus stop in the rebels’ capital Donetsk on Thursday. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted January 25, 2015 Well tha was a simply terror attack, nothing else. There were no military targets nearby that they missed, it was done on purpose to terrorize the civilian population. That too is a war crime. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted January 25, 2015 (The Guardian) Russia blocks UN attempt to condemn rebel rocket attack Russia prevented the UN security council on Saturday from criticising statements by pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels and condemning an upsurge in violence that has claimed dozens of lives in Ukraine, diplomats said. (Euromaidan Press) Pro-Russian propaganda’s bizzare take on the Mariupol massacre Terrorist speakers and pro-Russian media in Ukraine are notorious for rapidly shifting statements in the wake of disasters they cause. As details of the MH17 crash became known, terrorist propaganda sites and Kremlin news agencies quickly pulled down boasts of shutting down a Ukrainian military cargo plane. Right after the bus massacre at Volnovakha hit the news, a terrorist news group on the Russian social network Vkontakte promptly deleted a post claiming destruction of a Ukrainian checkpoint. Later there were several more twists to the story, unpicked by independent investigator website Bellingcat. The horrific strike at Mariupol on January 24 was no different. (The XX Committee) Russia’s Emerging Holy War At the beginning of this week, President Barack Obama explained that Russia, hit hard by Western sanctions, is losing in its confrontation with the West and NATO caused by Vladimir Putin’s aggression in Ukraine. In his State of the Union address, Obama displayed similar swag and bluster against both the Kremlin and Congressional Republicans, seemingly without regard for any recent events. (Atlantic Council) Russian Troops Lead Moscow’s Biggest Direct Offensive in Ukraine Since August A “substantial number†of Russian Federation special forces troops led this week’s capture of the Donetsk airport amid what appears to be Russia’s biggest direct military offensive in Ukraine since last summer. The offensive, by thousands of Russian troops, appears aimed at least in part at forcing a re-negotiation of the September cease-fire agreement, which has proven an obstacle for the Kremlin in its key goal: constraining Ukraine’s pursuit of closer ties with Europe and the West. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rydygier 1317 Posted January 25, 2015 http://www.polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/1361127,UDSC-ani-jeden-Ukrainiec-nie-otrzymal-statusu-uchodzcy-w-2014-roku Not a single citizen of Ukraine has received refugee status in Poland in 2014, although such requests made over 2 thousand people - according to the report of the Office for Foreigners (Office for Foreigners). Ukrainians were second - after the of Russia citizens of Chechen nationality - the largest group that submitted applications for refugee status. None of them has received this form of protection. Only issued several decisions to grant subsidiary protection and tolerated stay permit. The person applying for refugee status must prove well-founded fear of persecution and not be able to get shelter in other parts of their country. It is the second condition does not meet the Ukrainians - According to information from the Office for Foreigners. Most foreigners from Ukraine, who came to our country, however, decided not to apply for refugee status, but for the legalization of residence allows to work and support his family. Ukrainians have made more than 28 thousand such applications, which is 44 percent all applications in cases of legalization of stay. The citizens of Ukraine, who for many years lived in Poland on the basis of temporary residence permits, they decided to remain in the country permanently. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) BriankaIrony of fate: A woman that was a big supporter of Russia and asked for Putin to invade was one of the people killed by russian rockets in Mariupol. Edited January 25, 2015 by beastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
negah 26 Posted January 25, 2015 Well tha was a simply terror attack, nothing else. There were no military targets nearby that they missed, it was done on purpose to terrorize the civilian population. That too is a war crime. http://itar-tass.com/en/world/771996 I understand that the whole shelling of the rebel held cities is carried out by rebels themselves just because they are so evil and pro-russian and thats what evil russians do all the time. So that bomb was obviously dropped by the russian air force, since the rebels dont have one. If there IS a slight chance that it was in fact the ukrainian air force, although we as good westerners all agree that they would never do such a barbaric, russian-style, thing, that would of-course be in the name of greater democratic good and hence not count as a terroristic attack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1125 Posted January 25, 2015 it might be not irony of fate but actual goal ... if she had Russian passport and the 'attack' could be blamed on Ukraine ... I bet you get how it would be useful for excuse to expand the 'protection' of Russian citizens ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted January 25, 2015 http://itar-tass.com/en/world/771996I understand that the whole shelling of the rebel held cities is carried out by rebels themselves just because they are so evil and pro-russian and thats what evil russians do all the time. So that bomb was obviously dropped by the russian air force, since the rebels dont have one. If there IS a slight chance that it was in fact the ukrainian air force, although we as good westerners all agree that they would never do such a barbaric, russian-style, thing, that would of-course be in the name of greater democratic good and hence not count as a terroristic attack. What bombs, where are the images of the bomb craters? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
negah 26 Posted January 25, 2015 Oh of course those people and houses must have killed/destroyed themselves, how could I think of something else. Im too lazy to search for videos or photos on the internet to prove something to a random dude on the internet, who will deny everything thats not correspondsÃng with his point of view anyway. Anyway what do I care about, thousand of civilians around the world are killed yearly by ourselves or our allies in some glorious wars on terror, but its never spoken about, so it doesnt happen. Why should it be different in this case. I have to take a leave from reading this topic for a while, my hypocrisymeter has just exploded, couldnt manage the incoming traffic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted January 25, 2015 http://itar-tass.com/en/world/771996I understand that the whole shelling of the rebel held cities is carried out by rebels themselves just because they are so evil and pro-russian and thats what evil russians do all the time. So that bomb was obviously dropped by the russian air force, since the rebels dont have one. If there IS a slight chance that it was in fact the ukrainian air force, although we as good westerners all agree that they would never do such a barbaric, russian-style, thing, that would of-course be in the name of greater democratic good and hence not count as a terroristic attack. Were the bombs (if there were any) a reply on artillery beeing fired from that position? The Separatistst really love to fire their Grads from populated areas so that the response fire hits civilians. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1125 Posted January 25, 2015 I bet he just talks about the recent attacks on Mariupol etc. which is known to be GRAD/URAGAN fire incoming from Rebel held territory ... (just by applying plain logic about minimal range of those, direction of incoming fire, in one video you can even hear the fire mission start so you can calculate precise distance by speed of sound) sry guys, but propaganda fails if there is simple math in way ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) What bombs, where are the images of the bomb craters? This webpage shows images: http://v7news.com/ukraine-bombed-schools-and-other-social-facilities-in-gorlovka-sighting-mortar-fire-video-photos/ Overview by the OSCE in the region about both sides shelling areas, seems like there were no OSCE in Horlovka but the town is mentioned and attacks from this direction did allegedly happen aswell. (19th January 2015). Would be too much to post all the infos, if you are interested follow the link: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/135491 Overview about DPR controlled City of Donetsk, shelling of civilian structure and casualties reports: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/135671 http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136026 Anyway, what did happen in the last days by both sides, their political and military actions wont lead to any peace process. Thats how i did follow the situation in the last days, correct me if I did miss something..... 1) Putin offers Poroshenko a peace solution which reminds on the minsk agreement which includes the withdraw of heavy gear (i.e. artillery, grad, xx). 2) Poroshenko rejects and starts a major offensive 3) The Offensive by Kiev wasnt a success and the Rebels reject further talks 4) They start their own military offensive Edited January 25, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted January 25, 2015 Were the bombs (if there were any) a reply on artillery beeing fired from that position? The Separatistst really love to fire their Grads from populated areas so that the response fire hits civilians. Yeah, russian media is the only one that mentions bombs and never provides proof. A half ton bomb does more damage than a small crater and some broken windows. ---------- Post added at 17:42 ---------- Previous post was at 17:40 ---------- Thats how i did follow the situation in the last days, correct me if I did miss something.....1) Putin offers Poroshenko a peace solution which reminds on the minsk agreement which includes the withdraw of heavy gear (i.e. artillery, grad, xx). 2) Poroshenko rejects and starts a major offensive 3) The Offensive by Kiev wasnt a success and the Rebels reject further talks 4) They start their own military offensive Poroshenko starts a major offensive? When did that happen? The only thing one could call an offensive was the failed attempt to retake the airport, but a "major offensive" looks different. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Poroshenko starts a major offensive? When did that happen? The only thing one could call an offensive was the failed attempt to retake the airport, but a "major offensive" looks different. Well, almost every major media source here did at least write about it and some about the message of Proshenko "to regain the control of speratists regions". Donno, doesnt matter at the end in relating to my post. Großangriff - click Edited January 25, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Thats how i did follow the situation in the last days, correct me if I did miss something.....1) Putin offers Poroshenko a peace solution which reminds on the minsk agreement which includes the withdraw of heavy gear (i.e. artillery, grad, xx). 2) Poroshenko rejects and starts a major offensive 3) The Offensive by Kiev wasnt a success and the Rebels reject further talks 4) They start their own military offensive I saw something more like: 1) EU & US mediate for a long peace agreement trying to sit Putin in the table for weeks ( applying him strong sanctions ) 2) Putin wants to keep his Ukrainian "Transistria/Abkhazia" ( aka territory unofficially and illegally occupied by Russian soldiers to keep pressure on that country ) 3) Russian soldiers start a triple offensive against Ukraine forces to expand their area. You also have to remember that the Russian operation in Ukraine is the only thing that at this moment gives popularity to Putin, with all the crisis and such. So he has to keep it fueled. ( WSJ, Dec 28 ) Germany Urges Negotiations on Eastern Ukraine ( Interfax Ukraine, Dec 29 )Ukrainian president: Minsk negotiation format should continue ( IB Times ) Top US Commander Goes To Ukraine For Talks As East Ukraine War With Pro-Russia Rebels Heats Up Edited January 25, 2015 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) I saw something more like:1) EU & US mediate for a long peace agreement trying to sit Putin in the table for weeks ( applying him strong sanctions ) 2) Putin wants to keep his Ukrainian "Transistria/Abkhazia" ( aka territory unofficially and illegally occupied by Russian soldiers to keep pressure on that country ) 3) Russian soldiers start a triple offensive against Ukraine forces to expand their area. You also have to remember that the Russian operation in Ukraine is the only thing that at this moment gives popularity to Putin, with all the crisis and such. So he has to keep it fueled. ( WSJ, Dec 28 ) Germany Urges Negotiations on Eastern Ukraine ( Interfax Ukraine, Dec 29 )Ukrainian president: Minsk negotiation format should continue ( IB Times ) Top US Commander Goes To Ukraine For Talks As East Ukraine War With Pro-Russia Rebels Heats Up edit: Iam talking about the time since around...yeah a bit more than just the last days, since around mid of January and what political and military actions did happening. The EU is of course continuing its political view with sanctions and so on, except that they are now trying to attract Russia with an free trade agreement with Russia. Its sad that the minsk agreement or the peace plan with the aim to have a buffer zone, with the aim to withdraw heavy military gear, failed. By the way what do you mean with "triple offensive"... Edited January 25, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted January 25, 2015 The EU is of course continuing its political view with sanctions and so on, except that they are now trying to attract Russia with an free trade agreement with Russia. The EU doesn't want and never wanted war in Ukraine, after all they already had their deals. It's Putin who wanted to punish Ukraine from day one, he was really pissed off to have his puppet Yanukovich ousted by the majority of the legit parliament in Ukraine ( even his own party ). He first invaded Crimea, and later create chaos in Eastern Ukraine to keep it like I said, as a Transnistria or an Abkhazia. After all it's the typical Russian Imperialist strategy. Specially now that Russia is really weaken, he is trying to keep in power by all means, even if it means murder hundreds of people. By the way what do you mean with "triple offensive"... Just paraphrasing Zakharchenko, he said that they wanted to surprise Ukraine leading three offensives simultaneously ( Donetsk Airport, Mariupol and Luhansk ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted January 25, 2015 Just paraphrasing Zakharchenko, he said that they wanted to surprise Ukraine leading three offensives simultaneously ( Donetsk Airport, Mariupol and Luhansk ). Well he sure is gonna surprise them, now that he told everybody he will.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted January 25, 2015 Well he sure is gonna surprise them, now that he told everybody he will.... Hahaha well they already started them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
