Ukraine General

[beastcat 14]

Shaun Walker writes:

"OSCE denied access by armed separatists; say bodies are starting to bloat and decay, expert team needed fast"

[surpher 1]

(Press Gazette UK) Russia Today London correspondent resigns in protest at 'disrespect for facts' over Malaysian plane crash

“And I walked into the newsroom and they were running an eye-witness account of God-knows who the person was blaming the Ukrainian government, and it is such a volatile situation.â€

“And it’s the level of disrespect for the facts that really bugs me.

[mistyronin 1181]

Seems that the shooting down of the plane has started to create a domino effect in the pro-Russian side and their supporters. That is good news.

(Press Gazette UK) Russia Today London correspondent resigns in protest at 'disrespect for facts' over Malaysian plane crash

( Gazeta.ru ) Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐŸÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð»Ð¸Ð½ ушел в отÑтавку

( ITAR TASS ) ПредÑедатель Верховного Ñовета провозглашенной ДÐР Пушилин оÑтавил Ñвой поÑÑ‚

[beastcat 14]

The official russian theory (Or at leat the one they told on russian news) is that the Boing 777 was flying to high for the separatists to shoot down. The russians say the ukrainian army shot down the plane with an SU-25, which the separatists then shot down after it shot down the Boing 777.

[mistyronin 1181]

The official russian theory (Or at leat the one they told on russian news) is that the Boing 777 was flying to high for the separatists to shoot down. The russians say the ukrainian army shot down the plane with an SU-25, which the separatists then shot down after it shot down the Boing 777.

In the Russian newspapers you could read that it was a Ukrainian intent to shoot down Putin's plane. Even if Putin's plane didn't fly over Ukraine...

[beastcat 14]

In the Russian newspapers you could read that it was a Ukrainian intent to shoot down Putin's plane. Even if Putin's plane didn't fly over Ukraine...

It would be funny, if it wasn't so sad...

[ProfTournesol 956]

The official russian theory (Or at leat the one they told on russian news) is that the Boing 777 was flying to high for the separatists to shoot down. The russians say the ukrainian army shot down the plane with an SU-25, which the separatists then shot down after it shot down the Boing 777.

Then, a flyer saucer appeared and shot down the guys who shot down the SU-25 that shot down the Boeing.

[beastcat 14]

Then, a flyer saucer appeared and shot down the guys who shot down the SU-25 that shot down the Boeing.

But the flying saucer that shot down the guys who shot down the SU-25 that shot down the Boing didn't last long, because the jews quickly jumped in and shot it down in order to cover up the fact that 911 was an inside job.

(Every conspiracy needs jews and 911)

[hellfire257 3]

It was a CIA SR-72.

[beastcat 14]

It was a CIA SR-72.

It was actually a Mossad F-35 shooting a heat-seeking laser gatling gun with a tactical 200 round ammo clip.

---------- Post added at 18:42 ---------- Previous post was at 18:37 ----------

Looks like the separatists still refuse to give access to the whole crash site.

This sums up the whole situation with the plane and how russia is lying and trying to damage control pretty well (But its in russian).

Edited July 18, 2014 by beastcat

[froggyluv 2136]

One more interesting notice: seems that plane was damaged by HE-rod warhead typically used in air-to-air missile rather than by HE-Frag one used in surface-to-air missiles.

Are you ICAO official or CIA senior officer to make such dogmatical statement? How will you react if official comission will say something other?

How will you react if the reports come back all fingers pointing to separatists as it looks to be going? I don't understand this kind of fanatical nationalism I love my country too but wouldn't excuse it's wrongdoings

[Tonci87 163]

The rebel leader is aware that his can be considered as a serious war crime and propably has resigned to save himself from prosecution.

[Dwarden 1125]

I've seen that videos and compared them with maps so you can't say for sure those Grads were on Russian territory. That's it.

About tracks... Maybe you are super-expert that can distinguish tracks from average Ural or KaMAZ truck (that can be either military or civil) and Grad launchers but I can't.

Even if those Grads were really stationed in Russian territory - then it's good answer on numerous artillery attacks and armor driving from Ukraine (I'd remind you that a number of people were killed and wounded as a result). We are learning fast from 'civilized world' like Israel how to react on artillery attacks at us. I'd repeat, we should have performed a strike long before - when UNA-UNSO nationalists appeared in Chechnya in masses. Like every 'civilized' country would do.

funny you ignore what I said, the firing position was build on Ukraine soil but the only traces , tracks w/e leads to Russia ... there is no road or other 'visible' scorched earth to anywhere in Ukraine soil ...

so how the grads got there ? hovercraft? flying ? ... seriously stop typing, start thinking ...

18:00: Donetsk rebel leader Alexander Borodai has tweeted to say that another senior rebel figure in Donetsk, Denis Pushilin, has resigned. No explanation given.

because he gloated in public how glorious shotdown of the civilian plane it was

Edited July 18, 2014 by Dwarden

[maturin 12]

The rebel leader is aware that his can be considered as a serious war crime and propably has resigned to save himself from prosecution.

Not sure who would prosecute him or how resignation would save him. If anything, he needs to be worried about getting stuffed into a van. When illegal military filibusters like Novorossiya go south, it gets ugly pretty fast.

[mistyronin 1181]

Not sure who would prosecute him or how resignation would save him. If anything, he needs to be worried about getting stuffed into a van. When illegal military filibusters like Novorossiya go south, it gets ugly pretty fast.

Don't worry, he resigned from Moscow...

[PuFu 4600]

good grief!

to the russian members: you speak an international language, use it to gather the information yourself (and use sources that has it right before), and stop believing everything your goverment controled media is spoon feeding you...

i'll leave this here...

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-18/putin-tv-spins-every-crash-cause-except-the-one-west-sees.html

[mistyronin 1181]

BTW already up the last Vice News report: Russian Roulette (Dispatch 59) ( search it in Google as in there are a few sensitive images ).

[scottmillerukctrg 12]

hi guys. i just came here to say that i've done the math with the help of my father who is an engineer, we did some research on the avaiable information about mh17 and if the plane was shot down by a ground to air missile, the missile was shot from the very ukrainian city of cherkassy, which is some hundred miles southeast of kiev. look it up, i think it was the ukrainian government for such geographical reason. i'd also like to add that i've watched some of the speeches and since i have some body language knowledge i can confirm that the ukrainian government leaders are lying/highly nervous when speaking but trying to hide the emotion while the russian/separatists seem to be cool and collected.

---------- Post added at 22:47 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

The official russian theory (Or at leat the one they told on russian news) is that the Boing 777 was flying to high for the separatists to shoot down. The russians say the ukrainian army shot down the plane with an SU-25, which the separatists then shot down after it shot down the Boing 777.

someone said that air to air missile leftovers were found. that is highly compatible, but isnt the su-25 a CAS jet, rather than an interceptor?

---------- Post added at 22:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:47 ----------

spooky so you deny these dozens videos of grads fired from Russian territory and just behind Ukraine border (within 1km from border line) into Ukraine ?

also explain how can grad drive into fire-position and drive away with tracks trail leading only to Russian border... guess magic

ukraine shelled russia first

[JdB 151]

hi guys. i just came here to say that i've done the math with the help of my father who is an engineer, we did some research on the avaiable information about mh17 and if the plane was shot down by a ground to air missile, the missile was shot from the very ukrainian city of cherkassy, which is some hundred miles southeast of kiev. look it up, i think it was the ukrainian government for such geographical reason.

The distance is approximately 120km. Considering the aircraft blew apart in the air over a 10km wide area it can't have travelled the 60-70km needed for a BUK-2M to have shot it down from that location. That would mean it had to have been an S-300. The warhead size of the S-300 is about double that of the BUK-2M which would have meant that even more of the aircraft would have vaporized imo. From the footage is looks like it hit in the middle of the aircraft near the wings (aka main fuel tanks) and caught fire there. The forward and rear of the plane seem less cut up into little pieces and burnt than the middle of the plane indicating the use of a smaller warhead.

Edited July 18, 2014 by JdB

[maturin 12]

ukraine shelled russia first

You mean a few mortar rounds landed on the wrong side of the border? One errant artillery barrage (refer to the dozens of inadvertent shellings or Israeli territory by Syrian Army forces over the course of that conflict)?

Also, people need to use common sense and realize the meaning of 'lost contact.' That's simply the last time anyone bothered to fix the plane's position in crowded skies. Unless you want to suggest that Ukraine shot down the airliner clearly over its own territory, and then the NATO suicide agents disabled the plane's radio from the inside, took over the cockpit and crashed in near Donetsk. That's basically what you're all suggesting.

Notice that for Ukraine or the West to have done this, two conditions have to be met:

1) The perpetrators have to be monstrously stupid and brazen. Pro-Russian rhetoric in this case relies on the 'khokhlols are cunning dimwits' argument and resorts to the usual 'every international event is the work of the CIA' conspiracy theory school.

2) Russia has to have been completely asleep at the switch and unable to provide any data to prove what really happened, despite the fact that they are obviously watching Ukraine's airspace.

Whereas for Russia or the separatists to be responsible, all that is needed is an honest mistake. Fog of war and collateral damage of the same sort that has taken hundreds of lives already.

Note that the U.S. has rushed to publicize that it DOES have data, while European investigators are already on the ground. Russian officials over only hot air and finger-pointing, because Ukraine did not shoot down the plane and thus they can't offer evidence that it did so. But separatist leaders are resigning and a rebel Buk TELAR is on the move.

Occam's Razor has cut early in this mystery.

Edit: Also, I don't know why all these media outlets are reporting that the Buk's range is 120 km. That sounds more like the radar detection range because the killzone isn't any bigger than 50km. If a rebel TELAR shot the plane down, it would have had to be within a few dozen kilometers.

Edited July 18, 2014 by maturin

[scottmillerukctrg 12]

You mean a few mortar rounds landed on the wrong side of the border? One errant artillery barrage (refer to the dozens of inadvertent shellings or Israeli territory by Syrian Army forces over the course of that conflict)?

First and foremost, Syria only retaliated the bombing of Israel that wasn't after a war declaration.

But not for my main point. "a few mortar rounds landed on the wrong side of the border.", you say.

Now how about this. How about your neighboor taking his M4 carabine to put some rounds down the range, just to have fun. however as your neighboor is incapable of intelligent thought he shot your mother and your father in the head. twice. now, why would you get mad at him? after all, your neighbor just "shot a few 6.56 rounds on the wrong side of the fence".

and for fucks sake, the berkut loyal to the new government simply started to throw rocks at the russian embassy's windows way before that. that itself is already a good reason to take over ukraine.

[maturin 12]

An errant shell is not an act of war; it is an error.

There is tons of ordinance flying around in Syria, and some of it tends to land in the Golan heights, despite the fact that Assad is very keen to avoid Israeli anger at this point. Israel either complains or returns fire at the battery in question. It's calls for a proportionate response, not full-scale retaliation.

Anyways, you're being dense. Russia isn't allowing the rebels to use its territory as a base as retaliation for anything. Russia has been violating Ukrainian sovereignty for months and would have let the rebels launch grads from its territory no matter what the Ukrainians did with their mortars.

and for fucks sake, the berkut loyal to the new government simply started to throw rocks at the russian embassy's windows way before that. that itself is already a good reason to take over ukraine.

Waaaah wah boo hoo. The US embassy in Moscow gets attacked by nationalist and fascist thugs all the time, including grenade launcher attack in the 1990s and an incendiary attack this July 4th. I guess we'll be launching the ICBMs, then. Should you be hiding?

Anyways, it is now reported that multiple other commercial flights used the same or similar flightpath even after the plane was shot down. So scratch another conspiracy theory. The idiot rebel operators (probably 50-year old veterans of Russia's air defense service who volunteered) turn on the TELAR, see a high-flying target that will soon leave their narrow engagement zone and seize their chance to hit a Ukrainian cargo plane or possible NATO spy aircraft. If not that flight, they might have shot down any of the next three or for.

Edited July 19, 2014 by maturin

[busso 10]

and for fucks sake, the berkut loyal to the new government simply started to throw rocks at the russian embassy's windows way before that. that itself is already a good reason to take over ukraine.

I hope you don't intend to be taken seriously after a comment like that...

Unbelievable.

[astral4eg 10]

good grief!

to the russian members: you speak an international language, use it to gather the information yourself (and use sources that has it right before), and stop believing everything your goverment controled media is spoon feeding you...

]

you too.

take the information in only one side of the conflict is of course very objectively

looked muddy photography and video, made by "maidan studio", and made conclusions

turn on u brain and think who and what does it do

---------- Post added at 12:35 ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 ----------

The official russian theory (Or at leat the one they told on russian news) is that the Boing 777 was flying to high for the separatists to shoot down. The russians say the ukrainian army shot down the plane with an SU-25, which the separatists then shot down after it shot down the Boing 777.

official russian theory aircraft shoot down by ukrainian or separatist, of course try to find proof that ukraine

---------- Post added at 12:41 ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 ----------

I can't believe the Russian emissary speech in the UN. Basically he didn't care about the proper shooting down of the plane.

In fact he didn't even deny that there was Russian involvement.

All the rest of the countries calling for a proper investigation, even asking for a resolution of the council to force a neutral investigation team ( Chile, Australia, UK, Nigeria, etc. ).

And Russian emissary ignoring everyone!

Churkin all rightly said about Ukraine. But what kind of nonsense said the emissary of the USA it's creepy.

Edited July 19, 2014 by astral4eg

[spooky lynx 73]

How will you react if the reports come back all fingers pointing to separatists as it looks to be going? I don't understand this kind of fanatical nationalism I love my country too but wouldn't excuse it's wrongdoings

All fingers already pointing and will point only at separatists, the whole incident had been planned for this. Before this crash the situation turned very bad for Kiev - its armed forces suffered heavy losses at battle zone and are almost defeated, and, what is more horrible for it, European leaders started to point at excessive use of force by Kiev and losses among civilians caused by Kiev forces. Even media outlets started to publish facts about it and ask improper questions. And what is saddest thing for Kiev and US - Europe was very sceptical about further appying of sanctions on Russia. And after the crash - what a magic - situation turned 180 degrees! That was the purpose of this ugly and horrible provocation, in which almost 300 innocent people payed their lives for saving Kiev regime.

P.S. Sure you may say I'm tinfoil hat and conspiracy theorist but for me this situation is too obvious. Even publishing exact info in Kiev's controlled (and then other western) media right after the crash about plane been shot down by insurgents (long before any official conclusion) says about it.