Ukraine General

[sudayev 27]

What they did is absolutely shocking. Hope the long arm of justice reaches them sonsovbitches and their principals.

Civilian plane downed in a wild country by a terrorist group. Good luck to anyone from international community who has clear intentions of explaining and securing the debris and bodies.

Now the international community will have their version "Smolensk 2010" as investigation will be conducted by russian MAK. Really sad. Sad for the families who will not be able to see or retrieve anything what belonged to those who died.

It's already happening, bodies are being searched for valuables, their money and personal belongings are being robbed. Such things only in Africa of Europe, where stolen passport can make wonders. Don't be alone because this is what happened to private things belonging to victims of presidential airplane of Poland that was crashed in Smolensk. Not to mention absolute stupidity and shameful pictures from morgue that leaked some time ago.

[spooky lynx 73]

Silence, hussars!

UA military servicemen stated that none of Buk AA systems were captured by insurgents.

[beastcat 14]

Silence, hussars!

UA military servicemen stated that none of Buk AA systems were captured by insurgents.

So that confirmes that they got it from Russia, nice find.

Anyway, heres the updated version of the tapped calls:

The last guy made the comment that the plane must have carried spies. Very macabre if you ask me.

Edit: Just found the english translation:

For a german translation go onto the uploaded videos.

A bit OT: The translations, especially the german one are a bit dodgy, but they get the job done. Reminds me when they did english translations for the metro during UEFA 2012. They were pretty humorous...

Edited July 17, 2014 by beastcat

[spooky lynx 73]

So that confirmes that they got it from Russia, nice find.

So that confirmes that Buks are of Ukrainian army (I've posted photos of them, taken near Slaviansk), and Ukrainian army is responsible for the shooting.

Edit:

http://instagram.com/p/qkWNPgs7bT/

Everything as I said: massive hysteria and accusing Russia and pro-Russian insurgents are already started even before any official conclusions and analysis were done. Nice provocation... Except that nearly 300 innocent lives were lost for sake of someone's political ambitions and attempt to save friendly Kiev regime from disaster.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[b00tsy 28]

My brother and his family were supposed to go on holiday to Australia this week (and would have taken the same/similar flight). Last minute they decided to stay in Europe for the holiday (thank god). I looked at CNN and they showed passports of people living in the same town my brother lives. Gave me the chills!

[beastcat 14]

So that confirmes that Buks are of Ukrainian army (I've posted photos of them, taken near Slaviansk), and Ukrainian army is responsible for the shooting.

Give up, you're just making a fool of yourself. Just some friendly advise...

My brother and his family were supposed to go on holiday to Australia this week (and would have taken the same/similar flight). Last minute they decided to stay in Europe for the holiday (thank god). I looked at CNN and they showed passports of people living in the same town my brother lives. Gave me the chills!

This is truly horrible... I can somewhat feel you, some of my friends are from Donetsk/Lugansk and still have relatives and friends there and they have fallen into a depression. One is even not going to work because of it. Thankfully my relatives are in a quiter region, but for a time it looked like the fighting might spread there as well.

Edited July 17, 2014 by beastcat

[spooky lynx 73]

Give up, you're just making a fool of yourself. Just some friendly advise...

You'd better calm down and explain me, how did it happen that a number of UA news outlets simultaneously posted a message that insurgents have some weapons capable for destroying aerial targets at high attitudes and then after some time a news about fallen Boeing appeared? Magical coincidence?

[beastcat 14]

http://obozrevatel.com/politics/69730-terrorist-strelkov-i-rossijskie-smi-hvastalis-sbityim-samoletom.htm

This is excatly the thinking you have to expect from Russians these days. "Oh? All that evidence showing the separatists or russia did something wrong? That must be a fake. Here look at that random dude on twitter who said the american jews did it. IT WAS A JEW CONSPIRACY ALL ALONG!"

Get out of here with your silly conspiracy theories.

[spooky lynx 73]

http://obozrevatel.com/politics/69730-terrorist-strelkov-i-rossijskie-smi-hvastalis-sbityim-samoletom.htm

Get out of here with your silly conspiracy theories.

So you don't have any ideas. Nice.

[beastcat 14]

So you don't have any ideas. Nice.

Well, maybe because all news organisations get their info from the same source like pretty much everywhere? Maybe because the terrorists bragged about it themselves all day? Maybe because its true?

Also, I have seen the news on RT first and pretty much on all other news sources a few minutes later. This must be a conspiracy, where the whole world is against russia for some reason, even russia itself.

[maturin 12]

So that confirmes that Buks are of Ukrainian army (I've posted photos of them, taken near Slaviansk), and Ukrainian army is responsible for the shooting.

Edit:

http://instagram.com/p/qkWNPgs7bT/

Everything as I said: massive hysteria and accusing Russia and pro-Russian insurgents are already started even before any official conclusions and analysis were done. Nice provocation... Except that nearly 300 innocent lives were lost for sake of someone's political ambitions and attempt to save friendly Kiev regime from disaster.

There are already videos of the Buk system near Snizhnie, in rebel territory:

http://cs620617.vk.me/v620617799/11fe3/amxYLvs358w.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5NSSzYygk

how did it happen that a number of UA news outlets simultaneously posted a message that insurgents have some weapons capable for destroying aerial targets at high attitudes and then after some time a news about fallen Boeing appeared? Magical coincidence?

"after some time?"

That's some pretty weak shit for a magical coincidence, Captain Tinfoil Hat.

It is all perfectly logical. Rebels get Buk from Russia. People photograph Buk. Ukrainian media reports on presence of Buk. Idiot operators test the new system by shooting the first thing on their radar, knowing that their friends in Russia will smuggle more missiles in if needed.

I repeat. My friends report that Russian aviation is incredibly active on the border right now, in Taganrog. The airspace is closely watched. If Ukraine shot down the plane, Russia would already be on hand, bellowing the proof to the world. And we would not have heard a single peep about a black box being recovered. Use your brain.

Edited July 17, 2014 by maturin

[Dwarden 1125]

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/

note the date, over 2 weeks ago ... of course there is possibility they got the BUK systems there

[ProfTournesol 956]

You'd better calm down and explain me, how did it happen that a number of UA news outlets simultaneously posted a message that insurgents have some weapons capable for destroying aerial targets at high attitudes and then after some time a news about fallen Boeing appeared? Magical coincidence?

ITAR TASS : Donetsk defence forces take control of army unit equipped with missile defence systems (as of 29th of june) : http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

5 chars

[JdB 151]

The M2 and M2E (not entirely sure which of the two missiles Ukraine uses on their BUK systems) have an engagement radius of 45-50km. The front line is said to be 90km to the west ...

[7rust 10]

Hey guys, I dont want to interrupt the discussion but I want to ask a question. Since the beginn of the conflicts in the Ukraine I never inform myself about what happening there, it was confusing who is fighting against who and for what reason.

Is here someone who could explain and sum up the fractions and the reason for this "war" in general. This would be very helpful for me and also for other people and make it easier to follow and understand the events happening there.

kind regards!

[spooky lynx 73]

There are already videos of the Buk system near Snizhnie, in rebel territory:

http://cs620617.vk.me/v620617799/11fe3/amxYLvs358w.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5NSSzYygk

One TEL. That's all. And to use Buk on its full abilities you need radar too. Where's it?

"after some time?"

That's some pretty weak shit for a magical coincidence, Captain Tinfoil Hat.

It is all perfectly logical. Rebels get Buk from Russia. People photograph Buk. Ukrainian media reports on presence of Buk. Idiot operators test the new system by shooting the first thing on their radar, knowing that their friends in Russia will smuggle more missiles in if needed.

Logical? Do you know how the plane like Boeing and An-26 look like at radar screen? Oh yes and operator of this very complex and expencive machine would be idiot... Do you really believe in what you are writing? So why don't you believe in Ukrainian idiot sitting in UA army Buk or idiot fighter pilot? Moreover Ukrainians already have successful experience in hitting civil aircrafts with AA missiles and own civil houses with surface-to-surface missiles.

Until now rebels showed only photos of one TEL, no other operational vehicles included in complex. Although only TEL can't fire missile successfully at high attitude and long range without external targeting.

If rebels really got Buk from Russia, where are other vehicles included in battery? Why only one TEL is shown? And isn't it logical provide skilled enough crew who can operate well such complex equipment?

I repeat. My friends report that Russian aviation is incredibly active on the border right now, in Taganrog. The airspace is closely watched. If Ukraine shot down the plane, Russia would already be on hand, bellowing the proof to the world. And we would not have heard a single peep about a black box being recovered. Use your brain.

Maybe we are smart enough not to speculate on this tragedy until more info will be gathered after analysis of 'black boxes'.

[surpher 1]

Hey guys, I dont want to interrupt the discussion but I want to ask a question. Since the beginn of the conflicts in the Ukraine I never inform myself about what happening there, it was confusing who is fighting against who and for what reason.

Is here someone who could explain and sum up the fractions and the reason for this "war" in general. This would be very helpful for me and also for other people and make it easier to follow and understand the events happening there.

kind regards!

(BBC) Ukraine crisis timeline

[ProfTournesol 956]

BBC live feed

Russian President Vladimir Putin called for an urgent resolution to the Ukraine crisis as he expressed condolences by telephone to Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, the Kremlin said in a statement. "The head of Russia stressed that the tragedy once again highlighted the need for an urgent peaceful settlement of the most acute crisis in Ukraine and noted there is a need for a thorough and objective investigation of the air crash," the statement said.

My suggestion to Vladimir : close the Russia - Ukraine border.

[Colossus 2]

Hey guys, I dont want to interrupt the discussion but I want to ask a question. Since the beginn of the conflicts in the Ukraine I never inform myself about what happening there, it was confusing who is fighting against who and for what reason.

Is here someone who could explain and sum up the fractions and the reason for this "war" in general. This would be very helpful for me and also for other people and make it easier to follow and understand the events happening there.

kind regards!

Or in case you want a more thorough peek on what's going on. In order of date:

1. Orange Revolution (2004, Wiki)

2. 2014 Ukrainian revolution (Wiki)

3. 2014 Crimean crisis (Wiki)

4. 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine (Wiki)

[beastcat 14]

Or in case you want a more thorough peek on what's going on. In order of date:

1. Orange Revolution (2004, Wiki)

2. 2014 Ukrainian revolution (Wiki)

3. 2014 Crimean crisis (Wiki)

4. 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine (Wiki)

Why did I write this wall of text? This is much better lol

Hey guys, I dont want to interrupt the discussion but I want to ask a question. Since the beginn of the conflicts in the Ukraine I never inform myself about what happening there, it was confusing who is fighting against who and for what reason.

Is here someone who could explain and sum up the fractions and the reason for this "war" in general. This would be very helpful for me and also for other people and make it easier to follow and understand the events happening there.

kind regards!

At first there were protests on the Maidan in Kiev against the corrupt president Yanukovich.

During the protest a few protesters got shot, but when Yanukovich said that he would arrest all protesters and made protesting illegal, the protests escalated into violence.

Later Yanukovich fled to russia after a deal with the protesters failed, because they didn't want him as president.

Ukraine set up a temporary government until the new elections, but Russia invaded and annexed Crimea (A region in south Ukraine with russias huge black sea fleet and a lot of military bases, that had to pay rent to Ukraine).

After a while a group of heavily armed people took over a police station and had a few shootouts with the police in Slovjansk, which later turned into their main base.

20 days later Ukraine started an "Anti Terrorist Operation" (ATO) and they taped a few phone calls between the separatists and Igor Girkin (aka "Strelkov"), who workes for the russian FSB and GRU and who fought in Chechnya, Transnistria, Georgia and more. It later turned out that he is indeed leading the operation. He and his soldiers later declared the "Donetsk People's Republic", however the support of the locals was very low. The separatists are getting heavy support from Russia and their main fighting force consists of russian veterans. Their weapons are most likely supplied by russia as well. This is the reason for the sanctions from the EU and the USA, in addition to the sanctions for the annexetion of crimea of course.

Right now the separatists are taking heavy losses and have been pushed out of their central Slovyansk into Lugansk. Now they are employing the scorched earth tactic and destroying every piece of infrastructure they come across. Grad rockets are bombarding Lugansk from Russia and yesterday they have shot down a civilian airplane killing 298 people.

[Tonci87 163]

Maybe we are smart enough not to speculate on this tragedy until more info will be gathered after analysis of 'black boxes'.

Lol yeah

and The DPRK is a democracy

[CameronMcDonald 146]

One TEL. That's all. And to use Buk on its full abilities you need radar too. Where's it?

Ye old OSINT:

Downing an airliner flying at normal cruise altitude would require a mobile SAM system such as a Kub (known to the West as the SA-6 'Gainful) or the 'Buk'. Both are in Ukrainian service.

The Kub can cope with targets flying at up to 26,000 ft (8,000 m), so it cannot reach the reported cruise height of the airliner. Buk coverage, however, extends up to 72,000 ft, with its maximum range being 32 km.

So at first sight, the Buk seems a good candidate for this incident.

When fielded, a Buk firing battery consists of:

- the 9S18M1Target Acquisition Radar used to acquire potential aerial targets and transmit their position and tracks;

- the 9S470M1 Command Post (CP) vehicle (contains the missile battery's data display and control system; digital fire-control computer, which assigns targets to individual launchers; and computes the engagement); and

- one or more 9A310M1S launchers each armed with four radar-guided missiles.

All three of these systems are vehicle-mounted.

In a normal engagement, all three would operate as an integrated weapon system and crew of the CP vehicle are likely to have a good idea of the local air activity.

However, a Buk launcher can also operate in stand-alone mode. Its built-in radar is normally used to track the target being engaged, but can be operated in a target-detection mode, allowing it to autonomously engage targets that were present in the radar's forward field of view.

Although it has its own identification friend or foe system, this is only able to establish whether the target being tracked is a friendly aircraft. It is the electronic equivalent of a sentry calling out: "Who goes there?". If there is no reply, all you know is that it is not one of your own combat aircraft. It would not give you a warning that you were tracking an airliner.

Operating Buk hardware would require a trained crew; with personnel who are currently trained operators or who learned how to operate the hardware while serving as conscripts.

[Tonci87 163]

As I suspected, a Buk with too simple IFF.

[spooky lynx 73]

Ye old OSINT:

True. But launcher's own radar has detection range only about 20 km. So, as I've said, rather low for successful engagement of high attitude target.

As I suspected, a Buk with too simple IFF.

Hm... What's up with IFF if radar mark of such plane as Boeing-777 differs much from any kind of UA fighter/attack plane or An-26-kind of transport?

[ProfTournesol 956]

The Empire Strikes Back :

MOSCOW, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. A section of the flight route of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 passenger airliner which crashed in Ukraine on Thursday and its crash site are within fire range of two Ukrainian batteries of long-range air defense missile system S-200 and three batteries of medium-range air defence missile system Buk-M1, the press service of Russian Defense Ministry told ITAR-TASS on Friday.

“In the course of July 17 Russian radio-technical facilities have fixed operation of a radar station 9s18 Kupol of air defense missile system Buk-M1 battery deployed near the settlement of Styla (30 kilometres south of the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk),†the ministry added.