Ukraine General

[Amra 10]

RT has always been known with FOX news as an example of neutrality :rolleyes:

Talking about degrading propaganda, a Pravda opinion article calling Merkel a Washington's whore, that is top tier journalism.

( Pravda ) The failure of German leadership: Merkel Whores For Washington

This is not even degrading, it's a real shame. But really you guys can't find whom to listen. Zhirinovsky, Pravda newspaper. If you so exited to find a real trash from Russia I can step over myself and find you a good read. Almost at the same level as Zhirinovsky and Pravda.

@Scrim: I don't know what is true since I have not been there. But these funny pictures are actually not true as we can see nothing of these happen on vote places. Why discuss hard topics like Crimea that way?

[scrim 1]

Oh, really? There's not a Russian thug in every poll hall holding the voters at gunpoint?

You've never heard of political caricatures and satire, or has Putin outlawed that too?

[akm74 1]

Oh, really? There's not a Russian thug in every poll hall holding the voters at gunpoint?

How old are you ??? ;)

[scrim 1]

I am mindblown by your complete, and utter lack of understanding of, well, words and their context.

[Tonci87 163]

The Krim Tartars and many Ukraininas refuse to vote. I expect a 90% pro russian result.

[mistyronin 1181]

The Krim Tartars and many Ukraininas refuse to vote. I expect a 90% pro russian result.

It seems that there are accusations of rigging. Some journalists claim that with Russian passport have been able to vote.

If that's true we could even expect a 110% of participation ( which had happen before in other regimes ).

Anyway to me that doesn't matter at all. Without any kind of democratic guarantee ( free press, no military invaders, enough time to think option, etc. ) this referendum is not worth much. What is curious is that if Putin was so sure that the yes would win, why not go for a proper referendum with UN observers from all countries...

[scrim 1]

I don't think anyone, even the local Russians who are very keen to defend their dictator, can actually prove that even one criteria for a legal poll has been fulfilled.

The only way to solve this, if Russia moves to support any of the two outcomes, is to impose as harsh economic sanctions and the like as we possibly can in the Western world upon them, and then they will crumble, like they did during the Soviet era. Things like expanding nuclear power in Europe would deal an extremely hard hitting blow to the Russian economy, seeing as how 1/5 of their export is made up of just exporting gas and oil.

[Beagle 684]

The first european nation that will crumble if sanctions happen is germeny... after that the rest of the EU will crumble. Germany is totally (70%) dependent on russian gas and oil. The russians can live without BMW and Volkswagen but we can't go on without Gazprom and Red October steel mill in Volgograd (my last employer in the defense industries got 60% of it's steel imported from there) and that's why NOTHING will happen in regards to real sanctions...the only thing that will happen are e few pseudo sanctions. The german industrial lobby has already spoken and 6200 firms see their interests and investments into russia in great dangers...and as we all know...Mrs. Merken never does anything against the will of the german industrial lobby. And even the cumstom blades I make in my own forge are made from russian steel.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Beagle

[mistyronin 1181]

The Guardian Live Feed

Pro-Russian demonstrations escalate in eastern Ukraine

Pro-Russian crowds in Donetsk and Kharkiv have seized several buildings and begun burning Ukrainian-language books, Reuters reports.

If that were true... uhm... I know who used to burn books... and invade countries... ( maybe the ones that call nazis to everything are even themselves more nazi ).

Also from the Guardian, Ukrainian-Russian armies truce:

Russia and Ukraine have agreed a truce in Crimea until 21 March [ihor Tenukh, acting defence minister] announced. … The agreement provides some respite for Ukraine’s beleaguered troops, who have been trapped … since Russian forces began occupying the peninsula on 27 February. Ukrainian soldiers have been encircled ever since, in some cases without electricity. Local residents have smuggled in food to them amid a nervous standoff with the Russian military.

But there seems little doubt that Ukrainian forces will be evicted from Kremlin-controlled Crimea once the truce expires on Friday. Crimea’s deputy prime minister, Rustam Temirgaliyev, said on Sunday troops would be given safe passage out. He predicted that eastern Ukraine would be next to join Russia.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

( NTV ) The first exit polls from the referendum say that about 93% of Crimean voters favor secession, and 7% favor Crimea’s status as part of Ukraine, Russian-owned news agencies are reporting.

No surprise here.

Interfax is reporting that as of 6pm local time, 75.9% of voters had participated in the referendum, according to the head of the commission organizing the referendum. He told journalists that in Sevastopol turnout was 83.5%.

Edited March 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[akm74 1]

sorry guys, this video for Russian spoken members. But it very funny...

[Yairweinberg 1]

93% Of the voters voted for Russia... Looks like this is the end of that...

[mistyronin 1181]

93% Of the voters voted for Russia... Looks like this is the end of that...

That was the first exit polls, that although tend to be quite close to the final results, are not the proper results. Anyway we are talking about a highly manipulated vote so...

Just for this time I'll agree 100% with this White House statement:

We reject the “referendum†that took place today … [it] is contrary to Ukraine’s constitution, and the international community will not recognize the results of a poll administered under threats of violence and intimidation from a Russian military intervention that violates international law.

Ukraine, the United States, the EU, the OSCE, the UN, and others have called for Russia to allow international monitors … Russia has spurned those calls … and instead has escalated its military intervention.

- - - - - - - - -

The referendum’s official turnout, according to a Crimean news agency, closes out at 79% participation across the peninsula; the outlet reports that turnout exceeded 80% in both Simferopol and Sevastopol.

Katherine Haddon of AFP relays that at a “free, boozy celebration concertâ€, several thousand people are chanting “Sevastopol†and “Russiaâ€. In Simferopol, flags of Russia’s right-wing nationalist party, LDPR, have appeared in the crowds.

Edited March 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[ProfTournesol 956]

93%... Kim Jung Un kind of score. Laughable and so counter productive for Russian interests.

[spooky lynx 73]

Seems that I'll have more options to drive at my vacations this year. Nice.

We reject the “referendum†that took place today … [it] is contrary to Ukraine’s constitution, and the international community will not recognize the results of a poll administered under threats of violence and intimidation from a Russian military intervention that violates international law.

Wow! Where had they been during seize of the power by maidan and placing Turchinov at the place of president which is also contrary to Ukraine's constitution?:rolleyes: A country that performed invasion countering international law 10 years ago has enough impudence to talk about law violation, eh?

Edited March 16, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[mistyronin 1181]

A country that performed invasion countering international law 10 years ago has enough impudence to talk about law violation, eh?

I agree with you in this point, but two wrongs have never done one right. Besides that its extended in what you call "the West" the hate and condemnation on US military invasions.

But there are differences, until now the US has always acted backed by dozens of countries and finding great consensus inside the UN . And after the military operations, their soldiers go back home and you can see how govs like the actual Irakian and Afghanistan one are against the US. While Russia invades at eternum, without any support nor international consensus.

[Colossus 2]

93% Of the voters voted for Russia... Looks like this is the end of that...

Kinda wondering what the turnout was. Answered.

Not to mention that mainland Ukraine should have allowed official records to be used in this very hasty election.

Edited March 16, 2014 by colossus

[ProfTournesol 956]

I agree with you in this point, but two wrongs have never done one right.

Exactly. Spooky, you see the mote in "West" eye (lot's of Western countries condemned Bush family Iraki venture BTW), you'd better look at the beam in your own country one. Putin is failing so hard.

His brutality shows how weak he actually is.

Edited March 16, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[Tonci87 163]

Ukraine builds up National Guard

[spooky lynx 73]

I agree with you in this point, but two wrongs have never done one right. Besides that its extended in what you call "the West" the hate and condemnation on US military invasions.

Unfortunately the world is not a kindergarten playground, so we have to do something for not being eaten. Oh and despite all the US military invasions condemnations it hadn't been threatened with sanctions and just screws up all that condemnations.

But there are differences, until now the US has always acted backed by dozens of countries and finding great consensus inside the UN . And after the military operations, their soldiers go back home and you can see how govs like the actual Irakian and Afghanistan one are against the US. While Russia invades at eternum, without any support nor international consensus.

There's also difference in case of Crimea and Ukraine: US and Iraq or A-stan never were one state and one nation. Russians and Ukrainians were. Long before any European colonists arrived at American coast. And longer than US exists as sovereign state. So the words of somebody trying to assure me that we are different nations and states only because of weird mistake and 20 years of life in different countries is just reason for laugh. I don't remember any Iraqis holding Hussein's army convoys and trying to stop them and not to fight coalition as it happens now in Lugansk and Donbass. And I don't remember any poll for Kosovo independence, neither free and observed by UN nor backed by NATO bayonets. Just proclamation of independence and recognition. That's all.

Some persons want Russians and Ukrainians to be totally different nations. Okay, we won't take away their right for dream.

P.S. Germans lives more than 50 years in different states, both were officially recognized. But nobody condemned reunion of Germany. The same goes with Crimea, like it or not. So that's not an invasion but reunion, I'd say.

[scrim 1]

The first european nation that will crumble if sanctions happen is germeny... after that the rest of the EU will crumble. Germany is totally (70%) dependent on russian gas and oil. The russians can live without BMW and Volkswagen but we can't go on without Gazprom and Red October steel mill in Volgograd (my last employer in the defense industries got 60% of it's steel imported from there) and that's why NOTHING will happen in regards to real sanctions...the only thing that will happen are e few pseudo sanctions. The german industrial lobby has already spoken and 6200 firms see their interests and investments into russia in great dangers...and as we all know...Mrs. Merken never does anything against the will of the german industrial lobby. And even the cumstom blades I make in my own forge are made from russian steel.

Nonsense. We could manage blocking them off for almost six decades, there's positively no reason for why the Western world, that has not even in invading Iraq done something as morally and legally despicable, should not be able to bring this new empire to its knees yet again. NATO was formed for a reason, and it was not to have its members be reliant on Russia for anything other than a reason to unite and arm themselves. If we only impose half of those sanctions that we did upon Iraq and Best Korea, we'll see just how long the Russians will be happy about the situation Putin has lead them into, or if they will start rioting in the streets of Moscow, again.

Lynx: Are you seriously blind to the fact that the "we used to own that land, so tough tits, we're taking it back now" is an argument that throughout the 20th and 21st centuries have been used solely by National Socialist and Fascist states?

[spooky lynx 73]

Pan Bzhezinsky, is that you?;)

[ProfTournesol 956]

The most surprising is that a real referendum, with UN/foreign observers and not held at gunpoint, may have had the same result (not 93% though...).

[Beagle 684]

Nonsense. We could manage blocking them off for almost six decades, there's positively no reason for why the Western world, that has not even in invading Iraq done something as morally and legally despicable, should not be able to bring this new empire to its knees yet again. NATO was formed for a reason, and it was not to have its members be reliant on Russia for anything other than a reason to unite and arm themselves. If we only impose half of those sanctions that we did upon Iraq and Best Korea, we'll see just how long the Russians will be happy about the situation Putin has lead them into, or if they will start rioting in the streets of Moscow, again.

Lynx: Are you seriously blind to the fact that the "we used to own that land, so tough tits, we're taking it back now" is an argument that throughout the 20th and 21st centuries have been used solely by National Socialist and Fascist states?

This is not 1956 anymore and the cold war is over and, surprise, even when some cold war headed politicians want it back, the companies do not and it's the companies that pay for our free elected politicians theses days. There will be no sanctons that are bad for bussiness.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Beagle

[Yairweinberg 1]

Ukraine builds up National Guard

How did they manage to get their hands on Israeli weapons?

[spooky lynx 73]

Lynx: Are you seriously blind to the fact that the "we used to own that land, so tough tits, we're taking it back now" is an argument that throughout the 20th and 21st centuries have been used solely by National Socialist and Fascist states?

So what is Federal German republic in 1990 and Israel in 1948 according to your logic - national-socialist or fascist?