Reinstate Forced Labour / Slavery ?

[onfire 12]

Imagine how much better the world would be if we forced all the people in jail and the homeless to work. They've had their chance to be free, but after an awful lot of years they've proven that they just can't handle it. They need to be watched over and provided for. The numbers don't lie - they are supported by the state at some point in their lives, either through welfare or the prison system. Why don't we make sure that we get something back for our investment?

Say what you want, but there's no denying that it would get things done.

Your thoughts ?

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

Since when is beeing homeless a crime? and using criminals for cheap labor is already beeing done(china,north Korea,usa, and prob some more places). i agree they can do something to pay back, but to use them for slave-labor is going back to roman times. criminals should pay for there crimes,(and not like breivik trowing fits because you want a ps3 insted off a ps2)but in a civil way where small criminals get a chance to repay their dept to society and then reintegrate into it where big criminals like the one in my example could use some backbreaking work for the rest off their sorry lives. Btw are you gone wield the wip to make them work harder?

[ProfTournesol 956]

How dare you compare homeless to prisoners ?

[Tonci87 163]

Jesus christ what the fuck is wrong with some people in the offtopic section today?

How can you compare homeless to criminals?

[Lenyoga 326]

Okay, now my first reaction was laughter I could barely hold back, I thought you were making fun of a certain other strange discussion in the off-topic section today...

...but if you're serious, first of all, congrats, you won: http://www.ilo.org/global/topics/forced-labour/lang--en/index.htm

Also, a lot of countries are using their prisoners as workforce, too. And putting homeless people in the same spot as prisoners and thinking that it would even be a little bit okay to force them to work is just sick. How the heck are homeless in a position to be exploited in that way? Most homeless people are temporarily homeless, because they can't pay their bills or they have gone through some serious trouble, and if you can't afford a place to live, you can't get a job either way. Homeless people don't cost the state or welfare system a cent, and prison systems aren't that big of a factor either (if they're costly, they're run by private interests anyway.)

Welfare systems don't exactly spend big money on homeless people and prisons, but I guess you think of forcing jobless people into slavery, too. In most European countries, you lose unemployment benefits if you're not actively searching for jobs, and the high unemployment rates are pretty much a direct result of right wing economic policies, just look at Britain's history.

What is it today? International weird forum day?

[spooky lynx 73]

Take off your pink glasses and admit that losing of home and becoming hobo often results to becoming a criminal. A person needs food, booze and money and without work it often finds a way to get it through a crime. I know it by myself as my countryhouse was several times robbed by hobos. We had to hire guards to prevent destruction and pollution of our property.

[Sealife 22]

A bit too far maybe,

However i do find it somewhat disturbing that in Uk we have some 2 million + on welfare and not working , however we have snow on airports that stop planes , leaves on railway lines that stop trains and water in fields that stop those that do work from paying taxes .

I think there are potentially better ways to HELP the jobless and homeless at least experience what it is that creates the magical cheque that feeds them when they habd it to the Post office and they get currency in return.

I would start with Local councils organising weekly Litterpicks and chewing gum removal from the streets and work upwards from there , if you dont want to do it then a saftey net of Soup kitchens and community centers should be in place .

hmm sounds harsh but i think its beneficial for all as long as its all done in a good humaine manner .

My 2 cents

[scrim 1]

Not sure if OP is mentally challenged, a troll, or just actually evil (not evil as in "oh, that guy", but as in vile and despicable).

And for the record, there's a huge difference between having inmates work, and actually making someone a slave, which is what OP wants. One is to have people who've committed a crime take small steps towards contributing in society, and the other is to make someone one's property, bereft of their human rights unless their "owner" decides to be "merciful".

OP, if you're actually in the German armed forces, please inform your superiors of this ethical idea of yours, and tell us how long it took you to get a dishonorable discharge. Seriously, why would you even want to serve? The oath that you've taken is directly in conflict with your slavery idea. It fits the German armed forces of 70 years ago, not today's.

[sudayev 27]

I think that a form slavery is already in effect in some of the EU countries (non western). Majority of those who are lucky enough to have work become the class of "working poor", not being able to live on their own because of very high cost of living. They had to hold on to low paid job just to have food otherwise they will loose and face the lack of materials to live, so the only option is to emigrate. That is why in many countries there's a lot people still sharing their living space with their parents. You can add whole bunch of other problems related with it like high costs of medicines, never ending lines to see specialist physician (up to 5 years to see the cardiologist).

While prisoners have really happy times being there. Light in-prison works only, TV, Consoles, Books, Gym, solid food rations and medical services at the snap of the finger.

In prison they got full protein meal daily, while a baby feeding mother in a hospital gets a slice of stale bread and artificial meat sausage.

Yeah something weird is with todays Europe when many free people experience working poor conditions while those fat guys in prison laugh at their faces. In America I saw prisoners building public roads and working on a state owned penal farms, heard about them making road signs and license plates. Why can't they do something productive instead of soaking in prison culture, growing belly and making muscle at the gym. As soon such person realizes how sucks on the outside he immediately commits a crime to return back to good old home behind the bars.

[maturin 12]

Homeless people don't cost the state or welfare system a cent,

But they are a huge drain on private charity, which could otherwise aim at lifting people out of poverty, rather than keeping them alive and somewhat healthy. It's a social cost that has a big impact, despite maybe not hitting the welfare budget directly.

Take off your pink glasses and admit that losing of home and becoming hobo often results to becoming a criminal. A person needs food, booze and money and without work it often finds a way to get it through a crime. I know it by myself as my countryhouse was several times robbed by hobos. We had to hire guards to prevent destruction and pollution of our property.

Of course, the fact that Russia has almost no tradition of private charity doesn't help the situation. On other countries, the homeless are at least fed most of the time.

In Russia, it's the charities that are criminalized by the police. The homeless shelter my organization was supporting outside Moscow was raided by the police on false pretenses, and now the whole network of shelters is under threat. Purely because nobody likes having bums around and wishes they would get frostbite somewhere out of sight. I'm sure the hospitals are thrilled at spending their resources that way.

[[evo] dan 79]

A bit too far maybe,

However i do find it somewhat disturbing that in Uk we have some 2 million + on welfare and not working , however we have snow on airports that stop planes , leaves on railway lines that stop trains and water in fields that stop those that do work from paying taxes .

I think there are potentially better ways to HELP the jobless and homeless at least experience what it is that creates the magical cheque that feeds them when they habd it to the Post office and they get currency in return.

I would start with Local councils organising weekly Litterpicks and chewing gum removal from the streets and work upwards from there , if you dont want to do it then a saftey net of Soup kitchens and community centers should be in place .

hmm sounds harsh but i think its beneficial for all as long as its all done in a good humaine manner .

My 2 cents

^this

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Was ist das? Final solution for the homeless / unemployed question? Perhaps you could concentrate them in 'holiday camps' with special treatment for those unfit for work? As I am straying close to mentioning 'the war' lol, it's best to mention that work placements in exchange for benefits are already being trialed here in the UK:

http://news.sky.com/story/1147058/jobless-to-be-forced-to-work-for-benefits

I agree that people who are out of work should be required to do something for a few hours a week in return for benefits if they are fit and well. It's good for personal well being and mental health as sitting around at home, drinking, doing drugs and playing games is proven to have adverse affects. I think the OP's forced labour / slavery option is perhaps a little extreme.

Who was it who said German Reunification might lead to a resurgence of the old ideas? lol

[[aps]gnat 28]

Its called Community Service.

But the Homeless !!?? ..... seriously WTF !

[maturin 12]

Any program aimed at rounding up the homeless and putting them to work would almost certainly result in a brutally enforced regime of fairly useless manual labor that did shoddy work highly inefficiently.

Somehow I think that paying armed guards to be taskmasters for your slaves is going to be more difficult and expensive than cutting a check. And all you get out of it is shoveled snow and dirt.

The idea is bad because it isn't actually about benefiting society, but simply punishing the non-participants and misfits. It does nothing to help society except assuage the anger of those who hate the homeless. It's a fascistic impulse, and the fascism is self-replicating once you get put the necessary work institutions in place.

The only way it works is if you have an economy that runs on a huge background sector of slave labor already, like in the Soviet Union. Then maybe you get economies of scale.

[scrim 1]

For starters, we have this thing called human rights. They're non-negotiable, and I definitely recall them saying something about one's freedom and right to a fair trial being biggies.

But let's say our fascist/troll OP gets his way, and we wipe our behinds with the declaration of human rights: It's still a terrible idea. Not only impractical for several reasons, but outright dangerous. Take the Romans for example. A very contributing factor in their demise was the fact that they had so incredibly many slaves, that a majority of the free population was actually left without jobs.

[vilas 473]

in some European countries prisoners mostly sit, watch tv, spend time on spa and do body-building, so in some countries prison is like holidays in good hotel, doesn't teach them anything, is not at all punishment, criminals even have right to order prostitute once a week etc. :/ for prisoners i am supporting forcing them to work, cause lots of them haven't spent one day in their life on work , but forcing homeless ? sounds weird ,

the fact that lots of homeless do not work (apart from those who are heavily addicted to alcohol or drugs or are insane) is problem that many homeless would like to work but cannot be hired due to lack of adress, without adress you cannot sign agreement and you not have tax payment and etc. so if anyone want put homeless to work then it needs allowing them to work by ability in law to make agreement with person without adress or NIP (tax number) many of them would like to work if labour/civic code would allow such work agreements, if in your country (author of thread) your law doesn't allow them to work , than try to change this law, in my country law disable homeless person from work legally (with tax and retirement),

i know some people which ended in prisons, most of them were "i do not go to school i want party, if i have no money i steal cause i want to have sport BMW" they should be forced to work to see that money do not come easy ,now they mostly take weights and do body building and leave prison more danger cause they look like Schwarzenegger in 80s and they think they are bosses

Edited February 20, 2014 by vilas

[maturin 12]

in some European countries prisoners mostly sit, watch tv, spend time on spa and do body-building, so in some countries prison is like holidays in good hotel, doesn't teach them anything, is not at all punishment, criminals even have right to order prostitute once a week etc. :/ for prisoners i am supporting forcing them to work, cause lots of them haven't spent one day in their life on work , but forcing homeless ? sounds weird ,

Sounds weird, but it works.

Norway treat its convicts better than anyone else, but after they get out of prison, they are more likely to stop committing crimes.

Countries that punish their criminals harshly and put them in poor conditions like the US or Russia turn petty thieves in desperate, hardened criminals who can no longer operate in society and are bound to go on committing crimes in order to survive. The vast majority of US convicts nowadays are just kids who grew up surrounded by drugs and weren't able to avoid falling in with criminal types. Prison makes them unfit for civilized life. And in Russia there's an entire subculture of ex-convicts with entire dialects and even a musical genre. Just breeding repeat offenders and a whole sector of society that isn't even fazed by the prospect of jailtime.

No one seriously believes that prison is a serious deterrent to crime. It's just the fascistic desire for revenge by a sick society.

[vilas 473]

It's just the fascistic desire for revenge by a sick society.

sick is not society, sick is person who rob, steal, cheat, make burglary , rapes

i do not understand people saying about human rights of criminals who harm other, they should speak about human rights of those honest and victims who have human right to walk street without being robbed, beaten, raped or killed , honest people have human right to work and be sure their money wont be stolen

Edited February 20, 2014 by vilas

[maturin 12]

i do not understand people saying about human rights of criminals who harm other, they should speak about human rights of those honest and victims who have human right to walk street without being robbed, beaten, raped or killed , honest people have human right to work and be sure their money wont be stolen

...then society should focus on rehabilitating criminals so they stop doing those things, and it has been amply proven that they best way to do that is perfectly compatible with the human rights that even criminals have, whether you like it or not.

And tell me, how does punishing a criminal harshly (assuming they are caught) do anything at all to help the person who's been attacked? Absolutely nothing. I'm not saying that criminals shouldn't be punished severely for serious crimes, just that that punishment has nothing to do with the victims, so don't try to bring pathos for them into the argument.

Most people don't give a shit about the victims of crime. They just become outraged at the thought of criminals committing crimes and getting off easy, and favor harsh punishments because a vindictive, emotional desire for primitive revenge. If we actually cared about reducing crime and the general welfare, the justice system would be based on rehabilitation and restorative, rather than retributive, justice. I know if someone stole my car I would want the criminal to be put to work getting me a new one, rather than sit pointlessly in a cell wasting years of his life and probably not even repenting or thinking of the pain he caused me personally. Oh, hey, look, some forced labor I would be in favor of!

sick is not society, sick is person who rob, steal, cheat, make burglary , rapes

Robbery and even murder or rape can be perfectly natural and logical responses to certain social conditions (not saying that its ever moral). Plenty of religions bend over backwards to excuse rape, so in a highly religious society you can't very well put all the blame on an individual (again, not to say that blame on the individual should be lessened just because blame is shared).

England used to execute twelve year-olds for petty theft. Are you going to tell me it was the kids who were sick? And that suddenly most of the sick individuals in England disappeared with the dawn of the 20th century? Or did society improve?

Edited February 20, 2014 by maturin

[scrim 1]

sick is not society, sick is person who rob, steal, cheat, make burglary , rapes

i do not understand people saying about human rights of criminals who harm other, they should speak about human rights of those honest and victims who have human right to walk street without being robbed, beaten, raped or killed , honest people have human right to work and be sure their money wont be stolen

Please tell me you're not so narrow minded that you can't comprehend a society that cherishes the rights of its law abiding citizens to live lives free of crime, and is constructive enough to treat convicted criminals in a way that focuses on rendering them safe for when they return to society, instead of just sending them out to mend roads in chain gangs, after which they'll return as criminals, but with better connections with other criminals.

[vilas 473]

you are naive talking about rehabiliting, do you worked in Police, you know them ? do you work in Law Enforcement ? my friends work, i also work in some legal enforcement and i know criminals, they will not change, why ? they do it from greed,

they want more and more money without work, they want sport coupe newest car, they want 5 super-model girls, they want golden necklace, they do not want to get up early to work,

i know guy who robbed old lady, took her money (pension) and spent night in casino, she could buy medicines for her illness and get serious troubles, what this guy said "that old b*** should have more i could go to brothel too"

i know from police friend about one criminal who was robbing people than collecting money into briefcase and jacked-off watching at money , how you want to rehabilitate them ?

i know example of few drug dealers who didnt wanted to go to school but wanted to have collection of BMWs, one had 5 BMWs and was not carring if anyone will die from drugs, those people not steal to survive, they steal to have newest sport coupe from BMW or Mercedes,

many criminals are psychopatic or sociopatic personalities (disorder) they do not feel sorry for anyone, you cannot rehabilitate psychopath, you can only scary him cause he has no consciensiousness

Edited February 20, 2014 by vilas

[maturin 12]

you are naive talking about rehabiliting, do you worked in Police, you know them

Do the police know what happens to the people they arrest?

I am telling you about actual facts. Numbers. 20% is not naivete. It is a number. It also happens to be the amount of these vile irredeemable criminals that Norway's comfortable, coddling prisons fail to rehabilitate.

Surely you realize that this means less crime and less criminals overall? But you don't really care about that. You just care about revenge, and have grown to despise your fellow citizens to the extent where you will never feel safe no matter how much crime there is. America is that way. Millions of people hide in their homes with their guns no matter how safe their home is.

i know from police friend about one criminal who was robbing people than collecting money into briefcase and jacked-off watching at money , how you want to rehabilitate them ?

He's probably one of the 20%. Although I might recommend a psychiatric hospital and medications.

You can't build an argument on anecdotes and emotion, vilas.

[vilas 473]

i am talking about persons like "i love to see someone crying, than i beat him more, hahaha i love those suckers crying, ahahahah" - i know such examples

[scrim 1]

Yes, because a majority of criminals actually have five BMWs in their garage, a 1000 square feet house, and three super model wives. And psychology is just made up mumbo jumbo, in no way related to dealing with and curing psychological illnesses, as opposed to tying people down in the town square and whipping them.

Thanks for confirming that you actually are that narrow minded.

[maturin 12]

i am talking about persons like "i love to see someone crying, than i beat him more, hahaha i love those suckers crying, ahahahah" - i know such examples

And I knew a couple bullies when I was in school. Clearly all children are psychopathic monsters and we should sterilize everyone to prevent any more from being produced.

I will pose a hypothetical question:

Is it worth instituting a hypothetical system that rehabilitate 60% of criminals and re-integrate them into lawful society... if 5% of criminals are also released rehabilitated and go on to commit further crimes?