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Nachliel

Does Czech Repoblic for Dictatorship rather then Democracy?

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If I never said im 15, you wouldnt write that, would you ? Can you now again read my comment and tell me exacly which part dont you understand ? You never said what actually makes you hate original Communism. Can you tell us ?

---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------

15 , but Arma is from 16 :P baaaad :P

I was playing Flashpoint since 7. ;)

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You're right, I wouldn't have written it unless you'd written you were 15. Before you wrote that, I just believed you were genuinely stupid. Now though I know that you're actually 15 years old, which means A, there's a high chance you'll have turned around in a few years time, and B, there's without a doubt no need trying to explain anything to you, because you like all 15 year olds know that you are the smartest individuals that exist on this planet, and everyone who disagrees with you about something is without a doubt wrong. At best you can explain to them the error of their ways, but you will not once actually consider the fact that you are wrong. You have touted these opinions for far too long, and you are far too stubborn to consider that you may not be right, because you think that would be to lose face, as opposed to actually learning something.

I could explain to you what I don't consider even remotely logical, but I won't, because I know you will disagree. This sort of plea that you've written is because you really deep down think you can guide a lost soul to the path of understanding, not so that you may be faced with an argument that you can consider proving that you were wrong about something.

And yes, I also know that my refusal to keep arguing with you in the light of this will by you be considered a Trafalgar size victory, and I don't give a hoot, because I know there's no point arguing with you for about another half dozen years.

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Exacly what I tough you will write. (...) What of my comments were making you think that i'm stupid ? Please tell me. (...) Your biggest argument for now is that i'm 15 years old and now you think that it is a good justify not to anserw to any questions that we've asked you, because you probably even dont know yourself what are you trying to prove us about Communism. So, what is it ? What is it wrong with your brains to say that original Communism idea is same as dictatorships, while in same time they are 100% different. Please explain us. ;) We already told you that Stalin, Josip Broz Tito and similar dictators actually never was Communists, but fake Communists. Communism, as original idea of Uthopia, is X, while fake Communism is Y (I already explained you what X and Y are). What dont you understand ? And dont you turn off the theme next time. Just tell us what you are trying to prove, so we can get over with this.

EDIT: Here is an idea: Is it name that bothers you ? You cannot understand the difference between these two systems because they are named the same ? I think so.

Edited by DegmanCRO

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Case in point. Instead of trying to think about it, or making a half arrsed attempt at responding in a manner that potentially disprove anything I wrote, you kept writing the same old insults, utterly idiotic points, assumptions and more insults, that are very obvious despite the fact that you think you are so intelligent and I'm so stupid I won't see them.

There's being a stupid, dickish teenager, and then there's just being pathetic.

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Will you stop going offtopic and finally tell us what are you trying to prove ? Our statement is that real Communism is very different than "Communism" that we have seen, and then you started to bullshit us with weird and really stupid "arguments" which doesnt make any sense. I will ask you again: what are you trying to prove ? Stick to the theme. (...) You better check out your intelligence and stupidity. Try by reading this thread from the beggining, so we will see who is stupid, dickish and pathetic in this story.

PS

I am going to remind you that you never told us why are you comparing Communism to fake Communism. You are non-stoply ignoring what we are saying and telling us that we like Stalin and dictatorship. WTF?

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Gentlemen, please try to remain civil and maintain a constructive discussion or else the thread will be closed and infraction will be issued. Thank you!

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I've kinda been sitting here, reading this, trying to understand exactly why the difference between Communism as an ideal and communism as it was, is such a point of contention...

The crimes committed by the various communist parties of Eastern Europe may have not represented the end-goal of communism. Yet, they were committed by men who called themselves communists, in the name of communism. The problem I have, and I'd hope that others would agree, with Communism as a concept is that it seeks to make everyone equal... By dragging everyone down to the same level. How does that really help?

Now, why would anyone want a return to a dictatorship, whether it was under the auspices of fascism or communism or any other ideal? Because it was more stable then? Because it was safer then? Because the secret police could drag your ass to the dungeon for anything they deemed uncouth? Because people are really sheep and need to be sheparded along by a Hitler or Stalin or... Putin? When a despot represents the majority of the people it may be alright for that majority... Better hope you're part of that majority.

For any form of government that doesn't rely on strongmen or despots but rather on elected representatives- the representatives have to reject corruption, and remember that their election means they owe a debt of trust to the people who put them in office. Bad things happen in every system of governance. Every system fails at one point. Bodies built of representatives are prone to failing... BUT at least that system has the chance to change and improve without a bloody coup or civil war. The rifle is the last of many, many votes. (But still an option, at least here.)

Maybe the reason I can't understand the desire to go to a dictatorship is because the crime and violence on an American street isn't the same as on a street in Kiev or Krakow. We've got abuse and corruption, but it doesn't sit down to the very core of government and society. I still can't wrap my head around the idea, however.

EDIT:

Of course, I did kind of get caught up in the negativity of the last few pages. I don't think most of you are defending totalitarianism.

Edited by lesscubes
Derp.

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For the last time. There is communism as a utopian plan for the future, and communism as an actual political system that arose.

The former never existed and never will.

The last was a superpower force that nearly conquered the glove and ruled the lives of billions, many of whom believed in it passionately.

If either of the two is "fake," it is the former. Because it never existed. That's what fake means. Something that doesn't exist. Anyone who says otherwise is only betraying their ideological blindness and immaturity. I like the idea of communism (world without government or class struggle where everyone received resources according to their need in harmony) too, and I know very well that most communist countries made a mockery of that idea. But you don't get to disagree with the actual meaning of actual words.

Calling yourself a communist DOES make you a communist when there are over a billion people who say the same thing, and are part of a system that actually runs countries and economies.

Grow up.

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By that logic, I can create my own ideal system similar to former Communism and call it Blah,Blah,Blah, and then there comes a psycho dictator, working totally agains my system's ideas, killing people and doing horrible things to his nation, however calling himself an Blah,Blah,Blah. Is that wrong or not to call him a Blah,Blah,Blah ? Think about it. Or another example: I can put many atheists, agnostics, orthodox and muslim people together, commanding them to do exacly what Stalin did, calling myself and them Christians. Is it then converting word "Christianity" and it's original ideas into a genocide religion, or is it something totally different than Christianity ?

Edited by DegmanCRO

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For the last time. There is communism as a utopian plan for the future, and communism as an actual political system that arose.

The former never existed and never will.

The last was a superpower force that nearly conquered the glove and ruled the lives of billions, many of whom believed in it passionately.

If either of the two is "fake," it is the former. Because it never existed. That's what fake means. Something that doesn't exist. Anyone who says otherwise is only betraying their ideological blindness and immaturity. I like the idea of communism (world without government or class struggle where everyone received resources according to their need in harmony) too, and I know very well that most communist countries made a mockery of that idea. But you don't get to disagree with the actual meaning of actual words.

Calling yourself a communist DOES make you a communist when there are over a billion people who say the same thing, and are part of a system that actually runs countries and economies.

Grow up.

Yes, only that both are fake in diferent ways. True communism is fake because it can´t exist. The Communism we had, and have in world history is fake too, because it isn´t really communism.

And I´m not sure that you understand the meaning of "fake".

You know, fake breasts. They exists. But they are not the real thing :p

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I like how no one has bothered to demonstrate how Stalin was a bad communist. Or even name a 'good' communist, who followed actual communist ideas (which ARE......?).

Because you can't. Stalin may have created a system that made a mockery of certain socialist values and the idea of a state for the working class, but his actions were consistent with Marxism and socialist ideology. The USSR was marked by a rather right wing form of socialism, but there is no official communism. Marx and other thinkers did not lay out blueprints for what the state should look like after the revolution. So Stalin's version is as valid as any other. And since it was a system that actually successfully functioned for many years and almost conquered the globe, it is fair to say that it is the most valid form of communism and the others are just nebulous pipe dreams and fairytales. And that's why the word communism refers to the system that actually existed, as well as the utopia. This is a fact of the English language, a fact of political science, a fact. If you have any shred of an education you will just accept this fact, even if it makes you offended for the sake of your attachment to the idea of communism.

If Stalin was a 'bad evil fake communist,' then tell me why almost all communists all over the globe, in hundreds of countries, believed in him and followed his example and took his orders? He was not a lone pyschopath, but an actual leader who shaped the political activity of millions, even those completely free from the control of his police. You are harping on the No True Scotsman fallacy for all it's worth. Soon you will tell me how there weren't any real communists anywhere, except maybe three philosophy students sitting in a cafe in Paris.

And you guys do realize that the Soviet Union's leaders and people realized that the current system differed from the communist future? They referred to the present system as socialism or Leninism, and communism as something that they would build. They called themselves communists as an indication of their goal. And it was their goal. They just had to destroy global capitalism, end class distinctions and complete industrialization first. Communism was assumed to come afterwards, more or less without too much planning, as the inevitable result of historical laws. Stalin knew it was far off, Khrushchev thought it was just a few decades away.

Think about it. Or another example: I can put many atheists, agnostics, orthodox and muslim people together, commanding them to do exacly what Stalin did, calling myself and them Christians. Is it then converting word "Christianity" and it's original ideas into a genocide religion, or is it something totally different than Christianity ?

Yes.

You read that right. The answer is yes.

Christianity is word that has almost no inherent meaning. We can attach it to whatever we want.

Your example is dishonest and false, so I will correct it.

If Christianity had never existed, except as a tiny sect with no established dogma or beliefs, and I went and made a worldwide religion that worshiped balloon animals, then yes, that would be Christianity. The old meaning would be obsolete, and the more meaningful, relevant meaning of the word will take over.

I'm sure if you ask most Christians on the street today, they will say that the people who ran the Spanish Inquisition were not 'real Christians' and made a mockery of their beliefs. But those people are wrong. The Inquisitors were indeed real Christians. They followed the standards of the day. To extend the analogy, many early Christians had incredibly outlandish beliefs and practices concerning violence, marriage and the life of Christ. How can they all be Christians? How DARE these three billion people today call themselves Christians?!? They do not worship like ANY of those little groups did in the year 200 AD!!!

---------- Post added at 07:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 AM ----------

Yes, only that both are fake in diferent ways. True communism is fake because it can´t exist. The Communism we had, and have in world history is fake too, because it isn´t really communism.

Tonci, please listen to me as a native English speaker with an excellent command of my own language.

'Communism,' when referring to people and countries, indicates that those people regard communism as their utopian goal for the future. NO COMMUNIST EVER claimed to have created the communist society predicted by Marx. They only claimed that they were faithful communists being well on the way to doing so.

Nowadays, English speakers refer to countries run by communists as communist countries, and their systems as communist systems. This is entirely correct, because of the linkages in meaning mentioned above, and because no actual communist system has ever existed.

To wit, we refer to a person who seeks transcendence as a transcendentalist. He follows a transcendentalist philosophy. By defintion, he hasn't achieved it yet. But no one gets offended by using the word.

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I wouldn't call Russia a democracy though.

And I would suggest neither is the US these days ......... (a good example of democracy)

It's government org. spying on domestic and OS citizens ..... sounds like something from the Soviet era.

It's gap between the super rich and "average" poor (not even counting the dirt poor) becomes the biggest in it's history. A gap is essential for "growth" but experts are saying the size of the current gap is unhealthy.

So when you start judging "democracy" and even "dictatorship", you might want to double check what bench-mark you're trying to use.

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So i'll just pop here to say that, even if "communism" is the supposed final ideal state of what was called "socialism" or "people dictatorship" (or whatever), and even if this final state was never reached, the way that leads to it causes such brutality and blood bath that it WILL never happen, and SHOULD never happen.

An example could be what happened in Cambodia and the mass extermination by the Khmer Rouge regime.

Who cares about the (unreachable) goal when the way is so awful.

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and for example big international corporations looking for natural resources in African countries ;)

big business behaves similar, wars for resources being post-colonial behaviour ,

before communism there were atrocities commited by kings, oligarchs, magnats etc.

in every system when one want all money from people there is such thing, pre-1989 system in some countries like my country or Czechoslovakia was not that harsh as you think abroad, also please tell me what is difference between forced labor in soviet gulags and labour which forces people to work hard for 30 years bank loans to have roof over head ? in this and in that system you had to work hard for basic things ,

what caused big slaughter in Kongo or Rwanda (Tootsie vs Hootoo http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/rwanda/Geno15-8-02.htm) if not big corporations corrupting local poiticians to get natural resources for loooooow price or to change local gov. if it doesn't agree on price that corporation is willing to pay ? where there were first death camps ? in colonial Africa

every system commited atrocities, it is not matter of system it is matter of psychopats which are always first to fight for power and money in any system,

http://www.zrobtosam.com/PulsPol/Puls3/index.php?sekcja=47&arty_id=10506

nice interview with profesor of economy which was UN director responsible for Middle Africa and who cooperated with big corporations and African governments

Edited by vilas

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And I would suggest neither is the US these days ......... (a good example of democracy)

It's government org. spying on domestic and OS citizens ..... sounds like something from the Soviet era.

It's gap between the super rich and "average" poor (not even counting the dirt poor) becomes the biggest in it's history. A gap is essential for "growth" but experts are saying the size of the current gap is unhealthy.

Neither spying nor income inequality make a state non-democratic.

If the citizens wanted to, they could all band together and amend the constitution to assure that there is a Big Brother telescreen in every room of every house and that would be democracy.

The U.S. is still a democracy (republic) despite those factors, it's just under threat.

So i'll just pop here to say that, even if "communism" is the supposed final ideal state of what was called "socialism" or "people dictatorship" (or whatever), and even if this final state was never reached, the way that leads to it causes such brutality and blood bath that it WILL never happen, and SHOULD never happen.

An example could be what happened in Cambodia and the mass extermination by the Khmer Rouge regime.

Who cares about the (unreachable) goal when the way is so awful.

No socialist state every made more than 1% progress towards their utopian goal, so it's not even necessary to say it's not worth it. Exterminating the peasants or the professionals did nothing for communism. Which is why people in this thread are right to say that there was a massive disconnect between the ideal and the methods. But I'm still not going to let them abuse words.

also please tell me what is difference between forced labor in soviet gulags and labour which forces people to work hard for 30 years bank loans to have roof over head ?

It's statements like this that make me think you are an inmate of a psychiatric hospital.

Edited by maturin

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By that logic, I can create my own ideal system similar to former Communism and call it Blah,Blah,Blah, and then there comes a psycho dictator, working totally agains my system's ideas, killing people and doing horrible things to his nation, however calling himself an Blah,Blah,Blah. Is that wrong or not to call him a Blah,Blah,Blah ? Think about it. Or another example: I can put many atheists, agnostics, orthodox and muslim people together, commanding them to do exacly what Stalin did, calling myself and them Christians. Is it then converting word "Christianity" and it's original ideas into a genocide religion, or is it something totally different than Christianity ?

A word of advice (no, I'm not bothering attempting a dialog with someone who is too occupied with his monologue, like you and tonci): Just stop it. I've been there many years ago myself, and I can honestly tell you I was making a clown out of myself back then. Now you are doing exactly the same thing. You come of as a complete and utter idiot the way you're "debating". Do you even think about the things that come out of your head? Of course it's not the same! Christianity is a religion that has existed for 2000 years (or far more, depending on how you chose to view the connections to Judaism), and has made an incredibly large imprint on Western and Eastern countries and cultures. One simply cannot hijack it by something as incredibly minimal as you suggest.

Communism on the other hand is a political ideology that has solely been used by totalitarian, genocidal, persecuting, democracy loathing and utterly violent states during the 20th and 21st centuries. That is why there is nothing stopping sane and mentally capable people from calling it by what it has done.

what is difference between forced labor in soviet gulags and labour which forces people to work hard for 30 years bank loans to have roof over head ?

Wow, just wow. Can you even begin to comprehend just how incredibly offensive that is towards people who actually survived what a 30 year Gulag imprisonment constitutes? It's like a feminist saying "I have slightly lower wages than my male coworkers, what's the difference between this and apartheid, or the Holocaust?".

Edited by scrim

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also please tell me what is difference between forced labor in soviet gulags and labour which forces people to work hard for 30 years bank loans to have roof over head ?

Rent too high or something, that's one of the most ridiculous things I have seen on these forums and there is hardcore competition? Most countries in Europe have some form of social housing, Poland doesn't because it's still recovering from the economic problems of your beloved communist era, You seem at odds even with the views of Polish people:

Polish forums:

A few points to remember,

WWII destroyed vast amounts of housing in Poland and a communist economy couldn't build enough units fast enough to even come close to satisfying demand, those big complexes around every Polish city helped but not enough, up through the 90s the acute lack of housing affected people's lives the way natural disasters do in others. Every possible space (and some impossible ones too) were used.

In the communist era the great majority of housing was government controlled/allocated either through government run housing associations or through housing associations run by large employers (also controlled by the government) and the communists were good at using (continued) access to housing as a method of social control.

The barracks look worse from the outside, a long time ago I knew a family living in barracks (built by Germans just before or during WWII) and they liked it there and they and their neighbors preferred that to the alternatives (mostly those giant apartment buildings) for example despite the real inconveniences they liked having a small plot of ground next to their rooms.

Similarly, the giant apartment buildings are a lot safer and nicer to live in than their equivalents in the UK would be (at least I've been told by more than one Brit).

Poland is basically still untangling the mess that the communists made of housing and while things are far, far better now there are still some old problems (and new ones appearing).

Currently needs-based housing has a huge backlog (many more need it than have access to it).

One good thing about the old system (of of very few) was greater economic integration so that better off and worse off people lived near each other (to the good of both). The poorest weren't separated from the rest of society. One of the worst things about being poor is having to live around other poor people all the time and one of the worse trends in Polish housing in recent years is precisely the classes segregating (esp in larger cities).

The new thing is to try to close the barracks (but many people there want to stay there) and replace them with container housing, effectively dumping all the hardest cases together which will not lead to anything like a good result I predict.

http://www.polishforums.com/society-culture-38/social-housing-poland-68939/

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about forums - forums might be written by do not know who, why you not want opinion of LOCAL - which is me, i live there since i was born in late 70s, my family live here since they were born in 1940s, and my grandparents which live there sine 1910s etc. etc. and grand grand... 1880s...

so

housing -

in big cities like this one i live - Warsaw, flat in block of flats costs ca 8-10 000 PLN/square metter

for 40 meters flat i need 330 000 PLN which is 100 000 Dollars (USD)

during 70s and 60s a lot of blocks of flats were build and many people were getting them by awaiting some years in queueu or like my mother, after death of my father - get flat for free from social care after 2-3 years of waiting ,

now to get that flat she would have to take bank credit but to take bank credit she would have to be credit-able by BANK,

bank gives credit-ability if you "earn enough" , but when you are not marriage (2 persons, 2 medium salaries) you will not get credit in bank, so you are ... homeless or live by parrents,

credit ability is ca 3500 in big city, while majority of people alone earn 2000, 2300 etc.

so if you are not married couple - forget about flat, but credit is for 30 years,

bank loan can be during this 30 years more than 30%

so to buy small flat for 100-150 000 USD i need 150-200 000 to pay to bank, regular salary is like 700 , 800 USD, bank wants like 500 , 400 dollars each month in such loan,

so i feel like slave that i must work hard for 30 years just to have a flat, for me it is kind of slavery but slavery to bank system, i know people at age 50, 55 who still pay bank loan for their flat, they cannot loose job cause they can loose home, so it is forced that they must work hard to have money for life and bank loan,

and i know people at age of 35 who must work with parents although they dream about living alone without parents control, but they cannot afford it,

before 1989 a lot of companies (cars factory, militia, army, heavy industry facilities etc. a lot of industrial plants had their flats for their workers and getting such flat was few years awaiting, not 30 years of paying)

when i wanted to borrow 10 000 from bank last year for 3 years , bank wanted to pay back 12 500 , so my friend borrowed me and i had no problem with that, but banks are modern slavery system (you do not understand it cause you live in country which as loans at max few percent, not dozen percent)

if you praise our reality, than why over 2 milions of Poles emigrated, why don't you come here and work for 500 USD ? comeone, move to Poland, work in shop for 500 USD in big city, come one,

of course 5 or 10% of people are very satisfied with changes, they have business etc. but for many people difference is "one poor thing replaced by other kind of poor thing'

really, come here and work for 500 USD per month, pay all housing, buy food, buy wear etc. come on and live here

you are internet-wise to speak about pre 1989 and post 1989 reality in Eastern Europe, but you not live here , according to stats 30% of people want to back to pre 1989, minority is very satified, majority do not see difference or do not care,

but businesmen and enterpronoun people left to UK, German, Ireland, Norway etc.

i would like to see your face when you spend all salary on housing and food and you do not have money for new jacket, DSLR, new car etc.

you sometimes write like you were kind of person who support big corporations and NWO, come one and live the way people in East Block live , meet lack of medical care, meet lack of safety on streets, meet unemployment, meet people dreaming about emigration, meet biggest suicide rate since evern and maybe bigger suicide rate in EU (especially among people of age of 50, noone want them , everyone want young workers who know computer, foreign languages, not 50 y.o. who do not learn as fast as young brain and have problems with health in physical jobs and have problems with PC and do not know English but Russian only)

i know some people who work 12 hours a day cause they afraid of loose job cause they are 50 y.o. and noone would want them, so they work as hard as 2 persons instead of spending time after job on watchin movies or take a walk in park, i also work some days 12 hours a day, not because i want, but because 1 job doesn't give me enough money for flat and i have to work for 2 companies which makes me angry , i wish i would earn 1000-1500 Euro nett from 1 job of 7-8 hours a day , but it is impossible and i must work in 2 jobs to get such money ,

apart from crime rate, suicide rate is thing that very arousen after system change

Edited by vilas

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Oh so it's a conspiracy, non Poles are posting on Polish forums to make the Communist Party era look bad. Let me guess, it's the Bilderberg group again? I agree with you that Poland is a mess, the Communist Party and socialist economic policies made it that way, yet you seem to think times were better then even though verifiable recorded history says the opposite.

On a £50,000 mortgage I repay £306 per month. Assuming the interest rate stays the same, after 30 years I will have repaid £110,067 to cover the original sum. The trick is to save up and repay early although that is limited to £5000 per year, without penalty. So yes we all have problems but that is how things are. No organisation is going to lend you money for free, what would be the point? The interest rate quoted for your loan was actually very reasonable.

Turning the clock back and denying an entire country basic human rights just so you can have a free house and borrow money at 0% interest (only for the system to bankrupt itself again) is rather a selfish attitude. Poland has problems because of it's socialist past and it's up to you to work yourself out of it. The socialist economy didn't work and that is why you are in your current situation. Yet you suggest repeating the socialist experiment again. I have met many Eastern European people in the UK and their lives are difficult, they blame past and present corruption and not one of them complains as much as you.

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no you wrong =

bad economical situation is not due to socialism, but due to destruction of industry, system is not issue , issue is lack of big industry production,

industry and production of goods (cars, tanks, weapons, shirts, ships, engines, furniture etc) is making money , so economy socialist or capitalist depends of industry and production,

current problems of for example my country do not come from socialist past, but from industry that was closed by corrupted policians in early 90s (bribes given by big corporations caused edonomical death of many industrial plants, government was issuing huge taxes on national industry and releasing from taxes foreign business, so national business couldn't stand competition)

so i do not blame socialism, cause than we produced a lot of tanks, MI-2, cars, weapons, etc.

i blame those who destroyed industry cause they took bribes and followed Geoge Soros plan

you cannot build economy only on serivces (hair cut, painting, plubmer) you must have production (machines, weapons, cars, helicopters, light industry like shirts, pants)

also something which puts economy here down was "made in China issue" and almost whole "light industry" go down (shirts, jeans, suits, jackets) because of too small and not protective customs policy (to protect national production of fabric, there was big region of my country focused on production of fabrics, city Lodz and surrounding towns were focused on cotton and syntetic clothes, this all was killed by "made in China", Polish suits were exported in past even to New York in USA where people were wearing Polish suits and shirts, we were cheaper , before China became major producer of fabric and sewing the world )

some things that killed our industry were weapons embargos to some countries which we produced weapons for, when those countries changed their gov. they started to order M16 and M113 instead of our AKMS, Mi2, T72,

Russians were focused on Mi8/Mi17, Mi24, T80, BMP-1, BMP-2, we were focused on T-72, AKMS, Mi-2 in weapons,

on one thng i agree - i blame corruption, cause politicians who took bribes made decisions that killed our industry and country cannot exist good without having industry, machine industry and so on,

in my city there is big plant which was mayor producer of cars which were exported to Arab countries , now there is ruined plant and lack of production, previously there were cars which were exported to different countries, a lot of Polish produced cars were in Egipt for example , even in Iraq

number of produced cars, number of produced busses, number of produced tanks, number of produced helicopters, number of produced pairs of jeans, number of produced shirts, number of produced trucks or excavators - it is issue

you know what happened in early 90s ?

some guys from post 1989 governments took bribes from international corporations and they made following deicisions;

- put large tax on state companies (so called "popiwek")

- released west companies from taxes

- sold companies for 10-20% of their value to west companies which closed competitive industrial plants (they were owners now and even land under those factories was worth more than whole company price payed by foreign "investor")

my uncle was director of ZWUT (manufactory of analog telephones) , telephones from ZWUT were in whole USSR, DDR, Cuba, Iraq etc.

gov. sold ZWUT to Siemens, Siemens closed facilty(plant) and moved machines to Germany (because machines and technology was not outdated, so even Germans with their modern technology wanted it), German workers produced analog telephones, Poland left with empty buildins after factory,

soon my uncle was unemployed as whole workers there, now there is warehouse there, where you can store " made in Germany" stuff

if you would watch any commiie movie from 70s, 80s you would note telephone on desk there in the movie, this telephone for 90% was made in ZWUT in plant that my uncle build since scratch or which my uncle projected as engineer, of course now even Nokia have problems, but i say about early 90s where analog telephone factory was building telephones in milions of pcs.

Czechs didn't allow to destroy their plants and now Skoda brings so much profits to Czech economy that i can only dream of having such Skoda here,

i believe in industry role in economy

Edited by vilas

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vilas you naive, quite some of czech industry vaporized after the velvet revolution

1. due to former first president Havel hoping for winning Nobel price for peace

he pushed for closure of all military related industry and research Russian, Israel, Germany and USA gladly took the open gap and filled it

the leftovers of military industry is just fragment of the industrial power we had, in addition it affected other major industries linked to it

2. fail to modernize in time, especially by state controlled companies, wasting money on nonsense or being clearly 'eaten' by own executive staff (tunelling)

3. the privatization was success in some ways but at terrible cost

state was giving away even critical key industry which was only short term interest to investors

now either these are gone or owned by corporation who don't care about cost of the service/resource to citizens (typical example is oil and gas industry and pipelines)

4. state supporting major investors w/o longer term security

when investor took over some industry or fab or other company either he just used it to gain the IP / patents

or short term bonus (like tax free heavens and low cost of the land etc)

5. farming and overall food production is on 10-20% of original values, CSR and CZ (after split) was self sustainable in food production

not just the basics but also sugar and others, now it isn't anymore (state supported non-sense like bio fuels)

claiming Skoda brings profit isn't exactly true, as the company is owned by VW which means most of the profit is going to the investor not within the state

but i'm sure Skoda would not survive w/o VW

nothing is as great as you think it is, it wasn't in communism either, the system collapsed because they lead the country to bancrupcy

unfortunately the new 'gov' wasn't much better, in fact they kept on stealing just faster ...

it will take decades to sort all the mess

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but Czech has twice bigger income to usual men than Poland, our miners work in Czech mines, our workers from ex Bielsko Biala FSM work for Skoda,

Czechs are much more succesfull than Poland, it is fact that you reached much better level than we, although you have smaller country and smaller resources (or maybe it is important cause in smaller industry one profiting company makes bigger overall income?)

i treat Skoda as symbol of succes cause i know Skoda is produced in maaaaaany thousands and seen everywhere and a lot of people work there (including parts like seats, rubber, cables, furniture)

so for me Skoda is symbol of succes , cause it is Czech mark known in the whole Europe and now starting in India, so you have succes,

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2. fail to modernize in time, especially by state controlled companies, wasting money on nonsense or being clearly 'eaten' by own executive staff (tunelling)

3. the privatization was success in some ways but at terrible cost

state was giving away even critical key industry which was only short term interest to investors

now either these are gone or owned by corporation who don't care about cost of the service/resource to citizens (typical example is oil and gas industry and pipelines)

4. state supporting major investors w/o longer term security

when investor took over some industry or fab or other company either he just used it to gain the IP / patents

or short term bonus (like tax free heavens and low cost of the land etc)

nothing is as great as you think it is, it wasn't in communism either, the system collapsed because they lead the country to bancrupcy

unfortunately the new 'gov' wasn't much better, in fact they kept on stealing just faster ...

it will take decades to sort all the mess

I think that these points are very true for every ex soviet block/ex- yugoslawian country. All those countrys are full of natural ressources. They all could have surpassed western countries like Germany or France if they would have been handeld correctly after the breakup. Instead greedy politicians and CEOs took/stole as much as they could without caring about the long term consequences.

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I think that these points are very true for every ex soviet block/ex- yugoslawian country. All those countrys are full of natural ressources. They all could have surpassed western countries like Germany or France if they would have been handeld correctly after the breakup. Instead greedy politicians and CEOs took/stole as much as they could without caring about the long term consequences.

no, they care about long term consequences ;) their children (those polticians) now are managers in international corporations or live abroad, so they knew long-term consequences, simply because of individual greed they were not taking care about their countries, it is like espionage, person is payed more and leave interest of his own country/army etc. if they were ruling proper way, now their kids would be earning 1000 Euro like not 10 000 Euro , if you would look deep into what kids of each politican do, you can find whose interests this politician was representing 20 years ago

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vilas you ignore the fact that prior WW2 the CSR was one of top10 industrial countries, hell the spending on military was only behind axis powers and ussr ...

so technically we doing way worse than we could (Poland got even more $ from WW2 reparation than CSR and we were on winning side)

i don't think neither Poland and CSR got any dime from Marshall plan due to Moscow refusing it

anyway now there is chance to be part of one block and while i hate the EU Absurdistan (federal buerocracy and such)

i agree that idea of one no border zone for people, work and goods was good idea, some unified EU laws too but only 'logical ones'

the EU wide directives for everything dumb and unified currency wasn't that bright idea (currency needed to tiered to allow transition as the members economically progress)

anyway i would welcome Ukraine to EU ... after some time of them being the pre-join member status ... i see no reason to not to ...

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