[SP] Pilgrimage

[doc. caliban 34]

I'm thinking of bailing on my current 1.8C mission and starting fresh.

I really like the original feel of the mission (I started with 1.2, I think.) with no civilians or AC; just an occupying force.

I have enjoyed AC for the most part, but the realization that it's a constant flow of spawning troops removed the sense of 'finiteness' that is a big part of my planning and tactics. I like knowing that the ammo and time I spend are actually tilting a balance ... especially the ammo since I play with loot disabled and rely entirely on what I find on bodies. Aside from the infinite re-spawn of AC, I've really liked the atmosphere of battle going on around me!

I am going back to the original roots of the mission ... focusing more on the simulation factors and eschewing things that are reminders of it being a game, but I will definitely enjoy the various gameplay enhancements that have come along. I'm looking forward to it and will probably get started sometime today.

Thank you for making the game so customizable!

- Doc

EDIT: Rydygier, for people like me, is it possible to increase the finite number of troops on the island at the start of the game when AC is disabled? I always set garrisoning and checkpoints to 100%, but is there a way to get more patrols and so forth? I think you once said that it is already maxed out though.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Doc. Caliban

[Rydygier 1302]

but the realization that it's a constant flow of spawning troops removed the sense of 'finiteness' that is a big part of my planning and tactics. I like knowing that the ammo and time I spend are actually tilting a balance ... especially the ammo since I play with loot disabled and rely entirely on what I find on bodies. Aside from the infinite re-spawn of AC, I've really liked the atmosphere of battle going on around me!

Indeed, that atmosphere is main purpose, but in fact personally I think similar way. You know "Seven Samurai" by Kurosawa? One of them, defending the village, prepared a sheet with marks, one per bandit to kill. Each kill - one mark deleted, so you know, each kill matters. That's my way. Infinite waves of enemies spoils that of course. I'm playing Pilgrimage with AC active mostly for testing, not because I like that way. Still, it really adds nice touch to the atmosphere.

EDIT: Rydygier, for people like me, is it possible to increase the finite number of troops on the island at the start of the game when AC is disabled? I always set garrisoning and checkpoints to 100%, but is there a way to get more patrols and so forth? I think you once said that it is already maxed out though.

Yes, it is very close to max, sometimes it reaches max too, depends on given randomization. AC is one possible workaround for that problem. Yes, you can de-pbo the mission, open it in editor and just place more enemies here and there, then save and play, but you can't add much that way due to 144/side groups limit. If you add many units manually, most of garrisons will not appear.

An idea, I could consider is additional set of AC settings in alternative mode, where amount of spawned groups is limited per given area (position of each spawn is saved, and before each spawn is checked, if there wasn't too much spawn positions saved already in given radius around chosen spot. If so - no spawn). So yes, they'll spawn from the tin air, put each such spawn will take 1 from the local limit, so after all each kill will matter again.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Rydygier

[doc. caliban 34]

An idea, I could consider is additional set of AC settings in alternative mode, where amount of spawned groups is limited per given area (position of each spawn is saved, and before each spawn is checked, if there wasn't too much spawn positions saved already in given radius around chosen spot. If so - no spawn). So yes, they'll spawn from the tin air, put each such spawn will take 1 from the local limit, so after all each kill will matter again.

Your Seven Samurai analogy is perfect.

It could be argued that "in real life" more and more troops could keep showing up, but that reasoning breaks down when it's taken into consideration that the influx is both limitless and predictable. If I clear an area out and then sit and wait for a while, maybe take out another patrol or vehicle, then it's quiet for a while ... I'd likely go ahead and start with the next part of whatever my plan is. As it is now, if it's quiet for a while it just means that it's probably a bad idea to start the next phase of your plan as someone is certainly going to show up. :-)

If there's a way to make AC no longer be limitless spawn, I would absolutely use it. I like the atmosphere and tension of unexpected battles erupting.

- Doc

PS: Any upcoming changes to the beta? Should I wait a few days or until the weekend, to start a new mission?

[Rydygier 1302]

PS: Any upcoming changes to the beta? Should I wait a few days or until the weekend, to start a new mission?

Mostly that, what we are talking about right now - limited AC. With some luck should be relatively easy to do. Just must decide, how much groups per area should be spawned for each intensity level. Maybe one or two small things too.

Also still need opinions what is better - many circles with common part, as currently, or rather only one circle, with reduced a bit radius each time player gets "circle" intel?

Just realized, it's impossible for reasonable implementation... Circle has to cover right spot, so can't be reduced all the time, unless the point is in the center. If point is a center, then such cicle in fact points exact spot. If not is a center - as soon circle stop to be reduced, player knows, the body is exactly on the circumference (thus no more radius reduction possible), which is bad too. Only workaround is to move circle's center each reduction, but then right spot can be determined by findng common part of each subsequent circle with all previous, which may be difficult, due to deletion of previous circles, still possible. And in fact nearly same, as current way.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Rydygier

[doc. caliban 34]

Mostly that, what we are talking about right now - limited AC. With some luck should be relatively easy to do. Just must decide, how much groups per area should be spawned for each intensity level. Maybe one or two small things too.

Also still need opinions what is better - many circles with common part, as currently, or rather only one circle, with reduced a bit radius each time player gets "circle" intel?

I think it would be fun to have plenty of enemy for AC once it's no longer infinite. Feel free to keep the numbers up!

As for the circle ... hadn't really thought about that. I was fine with the multiple circles, as that would accurately represent the captured info, but having one smaller circle would accurately represent the way the character would mark the map as he gets more info. I don't really have an opinion one way or another on that one.

- Doc

[Rydygier 1302]

Yeah, as said above, just now realized, so one circle solution is no go, so let's forget about that.

[cheema201 10]

Hi there Rydygier - I've been enjoying the mission (and the customisation options). I actually signed up to this forum so I could say that you've done a great job.

There is one thing however. And this has probably been asked before.

But do you have any plans on making this possible for coop multiplayer?

I'd love to run around with a couple of friends and play this mission. I think it'd be really enjoyable... There's not a great deal of coop maps with the same feel as this one (whole lotta altis/stratis for example is very much action orientated). And Escape from chernarus (Altis/Stratis) is all about being chased... etc. I like the whole stealth aspect in this, and planning whether or not it's a good idea to take on certain groups of enemies if you don't have enough fire power.

I don't know anything about creating these missions - but would it be extremely difficult to make a coop version where you could have up to 4-6 players or something?

If it's a big thing to implement then don't trouble yourself (as the mission is more based on running around solo anyway). But if it's not too hard to do, then I think it'd be a fun variation.

Thanks,

Look forward to your response

[Rydygier 1302]

But do you have any plans on making this possible for coop multiplayer?

Read here. :)

[cheema201 10]

No problem,

Thanks for the response - I thought there might be some issues changing between SP and MP :)

Good luck with your continued work on the mission, I'm really having a great time with it. Keep up the good work!

[Rydygier 1302]

Thanks. :)

1.81 beta updated:

- changed colours of 3D civilians commentaries to better visible and dependent on opinion of the person about the player;

- removing items from civilians now should work also for most non-Pilgrimage generated civilian ambience units;

- three new options for AC setting introducing limited mode.

Limited AC (how it works?) - now user can also choose one of three intensity levels of AC in "Limited" mode. In this mode, before AC begin to spawn AI groups, it is determined, how much AC spawns occured in the 2600 meters radius around current player position earlier. If too many - no more spawns will be performed for that area. Each spawn its position is saved for checking that in the future. So, basically, if player stays long enough in given area fighting with AC groups or just watching fights between AC groups, after some time AC combat on that area will burn out permanently, so that area may be then considered as cleared, unless some group will came there from somewhere. As for amount limit, it is 10 groups for LOW, 20 for MEDIUM and 40 for HIGH (of course these values may be changed on request) - it is rough estimation, as if player will relocate, so radius will after that cover also a piece of not yet "burned out" area, may appear a place for some additional groups, so this is smooth. This limitation affects also city battles introduced lately.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Rydygier

[neofit 65]

I like the idea of limiting the respawn in AC. I like having AC on high, but once I've killed all the groups in the vicinity, I'd like a few minutes to loot them in peace, and this rarely happens with AC on high. Or like in the current playthrough, I found me a new toy, a 2S9 Sochor. So I like to have one dude in the SP gun 1 km away from the airfield for instance, while I use the other to spot for targets, or just look at the destruction. But it's rather difficult to do, since there is rarely a 5 mins window between AC attacks on the SPG.

But maybe completely exhausting the amount of enemies in the area is too much? Is it possible to make it so after 30 minutes, an hour or more, AC units start to slowly get back into the area?

Or better yet, I didn't dare ask before. The AC "war" currently looks somewhat silly. It is like a skirmish party. If one faction were rebels then the guerilla-like combat we are seeing would make sense. But we are seeing two organized armed forces skirmishing without any order all over the island. So is it possible to make it look like either:

* a conflict between two organized armies, with a frontline crossing the island in the middle, N-S for instance, where intensive fighting happens, and have only the regular non-AC units away from the frontlines?

* or replace either AAF or CSAT by some Rebels? (preferably CSAT, their bugmen helmets break immersion)

[Rydygier 1302]

But maybe completely exhausting the amount of enemies in the area is too much? Is it possible to make it so after 30 minutes, an hour or more, AC units start to slowly get back into the area?

Yeah, but this way we are in fact where we started, only complicated, with "cigarette break". I would say - nope. Set AC on medium or even low, and you'll get more free time and space for looting. High intensity means high intesity, means no time for rest. No one there will nor should plan his movements taking into account player comfort. As you could read, what is important in this setting is to achieve "Seven Samurai" effect :) , that excludes any re-populating after some time. It's against basic idea behind this.

It is like a skirmish party.

Because it is a chaotic skirmish. That way it was intended, this isn't anything organized. If we'll go this way, it will end with implementing whole battle AI like Hetman, that BTW by itself is more complex and much heavier, than whole Pilgrimage code. Meanwhile I would like to keep it just, as you said, as unorganized skirmishes coded as simple and cheap, as possible. Chaos of domestic war between many warlorlds and sub-factions. These aren't two organized armed forces even if wear nice uniforms and unified armament. It is because once these was two organized armed forces, yes, but not anymore.

I have no other faction in vanilla, that I could use instead of CSAT. Yes, I know and agree, those helmets are stupid as hell, no idea, who designed them, but IMO he has not quite healty sense of humour, or at least very... remote taste, judging by this design. Same for the person, who accepted that... something for A3. :)

I tell you what - war, you described, probably will be present in the sequel.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Rydygier

[neofit 65]

I don't mean something super heavy on AI, like multi-unit formations, coordination, moving the frontline, etc. But just like it is now, i.e. units spawning randomly, but not everywhere on the map. Say we have a 2-4km wide zone, or diffuse frontline, going from N to S in the middle of the island, where all these AC units spawn, and a lot, maybe more than now, the rest of the island being left to the usual, non-AC units. So you know you are more or less safe E or W of than frontline, but then you have to be extra careful when trying to cross it. Well, and if the church you are looking for is on the frontline, tough luck, next time don't enable AC :).

[kurtz1 10]

Should you decide to use helicopters in the next game, there is at least one mod that repaints helos in civilian colors. This may be a good fit with your desired look and feel.

[Rydygier 1302]

I don't mean something super heavy on AI, like multi-unit formations, coordination, moving the frontline, etc. But just like it is now, i.e. units spawning randomly, but not everywhere on the map. Say we have a 2-4km wide zone, or diffuse frontline, going from N to S in the middle of the island, where all these AC units spawn, and a lot, maybe more than now, the rest of the island being left to the usual, non-AC units. So you know you are more or less safe E or W of than frontline, but then you have to be extra careful when trying to cross it. Well, and if the church you are looking for is on the frontline, tough luck, next time don't enable AC .

Well, altering AC intensity depending on area is something worthy of consideration. IMO front line doesn't fit that kind of conflict, it isn't regular war, but one big mess, but reasonably there should be areas, where fights are more probable, than elsewhere, so player can be relatively safer eg in the mountanious wilderness than in the capital city. Also, may be defined on the map areas, where one or second side have control (advantage), so enemy rarely is present there and areas covered by heavy fights, where both sides are strongly present and active. There is one problem with the latter thing however - code for regular garrisons (non-AC) isn't prepared to cooperate with such distribution of groups - for each spot, that can be populated, presence of both sides is equally probable, or rather depending on amount of defined groups. It is not trivial to change that. So:

1. Defining calmer and more dangerous areas across the island should be possible and doable, although I'm not willing to create classical frontline - it simply doesn't fit to the intended situation there;

2. Less or more mixed zones of influence and hot zones would be nice to have, but not easy to change the code, so will work that way, thus I must think about before I say, if it will happen.

This in fact are kind of things, I like to script. It is additional level of complexicity working subcutaneously, of which user is often not awared directly, but instead gains not quite concious feeling of deeper credibility of what he see around. And this certainly will be very useful for the sequel, so why not to prepare needed code already. Only must find the way to make it working as simple, as possible, as I would like to avoid burning whole available CPU power for such things, as I did intentionally in some other projects. :)

Should you decide to use helicopters in the next game, there is at least one mod that repaints helos in civilian colors. This may be a good fit with your desired look and feel.

In form of aerial ambient - even in the Pilgrimage can be used TPW's mod doing that amongst other great stuff. As for player interactive helos - two choppers are on map in Pilgrimage. No idea, if and in what range aerial assets will be useful in the sequel. We'll see... Fact is, the faster you move across the island, the more problems caching system will have to keep up, above some speed glitches may become noticeable, so I wasn't too enthusiastic about allowing player to control as fast vehicles, as choppers are, even in such limited form, as currently.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Rydygier

[doc. caliban 34]

- three new options for AC setting introducing limited mode.

Great!

With the limited AC, does that mean that, on low for instance, that a total of 10 groups will spawn, and groups can be anything from a few people to a large group? Does the count include vehicles? Thanks for putting this in; I was still working on my current mission last night and really do like having AC enabled, so this change ensures that I will use it in my next mission for sure!

EDIT: The more I think about it, it seems like it might be a bit high. If I'm correct that on medium up to 20 'groups' can be generated in an area, and if we say the average size of a group is 5 soldiers, that would be 100 AC troops in a 2600m area on average. Maybe I am not understanding how the groups work though.

- Doc

Edited May 21, 2014 by Doc. Caliban

[neofit 65]

In my mind, whenever I see uniforms, team leaders and officers, I am thinking regular units and organized warfare, not skirmishing over the whole island. None of the protagonists are armed like, or even look like partisans/rebels/insurgents. Technically, when there is a war behind two organized armies, behind the scenes each faction has one or more main bases somewhere on each side of the island, and each is fighting to destroy the other's base and throw them off the island. Each fighting group is coming from his base, going towards the enemy, each force meeting the other somewhere in the middle, where a frontline is formed. Just the things that would make sense in real life between two organized armies. The player does not need to see this complexity, it does not even need to really exist in the code. The only thing that the player needs to see is the end result of this complexity, the frontline, that can imo be simulated easily: atm AC is spawning all over the island; instead, modify the code so that it spawns only in a narrow N-S band for instance, just the same skirmishing, the same spawning with the same code, but localized to this band. Maybe more intense. IMO it will simulate the frontline quite convincingly.

Or I can suggest to limit AC to cities, but that would be guerrilla again and not be more realistic than the "team deathmatching" ;) that we are seeing now.

Then again, I bet only Doc and I are playing with AC on, so forget it :).

[doc. caliban 34]

I do like the unorganized feel to the AC if for no other reason an organized, bigger group would be hard to take on by myself. :-)

[Rydygier 1302]

With the limited AC, does that mean that, on low for instance, that a total of 10 groups will spawn, and groups can be anything from a few people to a large group? Does the count include vehicles?

Yes, this may be any kind of group, including those consisting a vehicle.

EDIT: The more I think about it, it seems like it might be a bit high. If I'm correct that on medium up to 20 'groups' can be generated in an area, and if we say the average size of a group is 5 soldiers, that would be 100 AC troops in a 2600m area on average. Maybe I am not understanding how the groups work though.

If it turn to be too much, I of course can reduce it. Yes, average this may be about 100 troops for medium, but there is still active limit of groups present at the time dependng on intensity, and for medium it is 3. So it will be nothing like 100 AIs spawning at once, but spawns are in small portions. In this case that means about 7 such portions before "burnig out". It is not that much, as it seems.

In my mind, whenever I see uniforms, team leaders and officers, I am thinking regular units and organized warfare,

I understand, but it is not the case. These are only former regular units, now marauding officially on their own, no central HQ, no overall strategy, no main bases. No unified organization. Some procedures, tactics and equipment are still kept, also partial cooperation, but it is deliberatelly decentralized force officially not serving any particular country, already more mercs serving local warlords or own commmanders as new warlords. If you analyze shape of latest conflicts (Syria, Ukraine), it is more like that, chaotic, crawling war conducting by mercs, local "barons", imported terrorists (war tourism), "green men" etc, than clash of two organized powers in Cold War style (not sure, perhaps even that kind of war is obsolete...). I would love to use some looking more irregular factions, but in vanilla we have, what we have and only, I can do is "decimating" gear. Teoretically I could try to use FIA spawned on east/resistance sides, but there is high risk of serious issues due to spawn on the not native side.

So no, sorry, no frontline in Pilgrimage, as this is not regular, classic war out there.

IMO it will simulate the frontline quite convincingly.

Yes, that would be my way if I would like to make frontline, and that way I want to use to make areas not equally "hot" instead of the frontline. And indeed, I think one of major factors to determine, which areas are hot, and which aren't would be urbanization density.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Rydygier

[neofit 65]

I do like the unorganized feel to the AC if for no other reason an organized, bigger group would be hard to take on by myself. :-)

Oh no, I don't mean you taking on a real army by yourself. Your job is to find your brother's body. So we shouldn't have to actually attack anyone. Fight the occasional checkpoint or patrol. Or if there is a war on, a "realistic" one, your job is to try and cross a frontline relatively unscathed, that's all. And it's not the whole army in one spot. Say you go from W to E, with the N-S frontline in the middle. So you see CPs, patrols, ... wow constant AC (on high or more) at the frontline, let's try and navigate it without being seen, using my brain for once ..., then phew, CPs, patrols.

Right now I have no incentive to play "normally", no incentive *not to* shoot everyone in sight. The AC dudes? Loot droppers, I am actively hunting regular trained military /flex. Now with a frontline AC, there will hopefully be more of them with less respawn delay, and if I open myself a corridor through it, it will to GTFO asap, not to loot corpses. As I know deep inside that I should do :).

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:24 ----------

These are only former regular units, now marauding officially on their own, no central HQ, no overall strategy, no main bases. No unified organization.

Oh, OK, if that's the premise, no problem..

[Rydygier 1302]

1.81c beta updated:

- AC intensity now altered by local population/urbanization density.

So, how exactly it works?

Before AC spawn anything, it checks now, how many towns are present in 3000 meters radius around the player. Depending on that number and average distance between player and these towns, chance for spawn is modified (if this time code should spawn at all, how long wait before next check, how many of maximal allowed by intensity level groups to spawn). From the user's side that means:

- average AC density now seems to be lower, except direct towns vicinity, especially for highest setting, so maybe HIGH is no longer so insane, as it was, still should be intense enough to be named "high";

- approaching towns and entering highly urbanized areas now are more risky;

- far from the "civilization" player is relatively safe, chances for AC spawn there are very low, even on higher intensity settings;

- because of above however in limited mode takes more time, before AC in wilder areas will burn out, because of much lower spawning frequency.

This stuff I added today, and did some preliminary calibration, but of course it isn't tested too well yet, so I'm open on any feedback also about that. I can re-calibrate this easily, if something is wrong with current settings. Just remember - all is still widely randomized, we are talking here about statistical average only, so it is not so fast to test reliably these values in game - deviations from the average are expected all the time.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Rydygier

[neofit 65]

The feature that makes it so after a few spawns the AC guys don't spawn anymore in a certain area is still in effect, right? If I clear out a city they won't spawn in there anymore and I can loot the houses in peace, right?

- because of above however in limited mode takes more time, before AC in wilder areas will burn out, because of much lower spawning frequency.

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Less AC is spawning outside of cities, but they keep spawning for a longer period of time than inside the cities?

Also, could you please update the "letter" at the end of the version number, even if it's the beta? It's the 4th or 5th 1.81c (beta), all with new features. So we avoid the "yes, but this happened in the 1.81c from two days ago, not the 1.81c from yesterday" ;). I am currently playing the 1.81c from the 17th, I don't even remember what features it is supposed to have and which it doesn't. :)

[Rydygier 1302]

The feature that makes it so after a few spawns the AC guys don't spawn anymore in a certain area is still in effect, right? If I clear out a city they won't spawn in there anymore and I can loot the houses in peace, right?

Yes, limited mode still works same way. After certain amount of spawns no more new AC groups will appear in the given area if limited mode is active.

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Less AC is spawning outside of cities, but they keep spawning for a longer period of time than inside the cities?

Far from the cities frequency of spawns is seriously lowered, so new groups appear much slower in time, thus takes much more time till this limit of spawns in limited mode is reached there.

Example: We are playing with AC set on LOW (Limited). For LOW limit is about 10 groups per area. If eg close to the urbanized area new spawn may be done each 3 minutes or so, it will take roughly not less than 10x3 = 30 minutes before reaching the limit of 10. It is pure theoretical of course, as new group may be spawned only, when current amount of present groups is below the intensity level, which is 1 for LOW. So spawned previously group must be eliminated/deleted first before next may be spawned.

In the most remote areas new spawn is possible roughly, let's say, once per 20 minutes for same setting, So reaching the limit of 10 groups theoretically will take no less than 10x20 minutes, that means above 3 hours of player's presence there. x6 slower, in theory, as said.

Also, could you please update the "letter" at the end of the version number, even if it's the beta?

Fair point. Next time each beta will have different pbo file name.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Rydygier

[neofit 65]

I am having a playthrough with the latest 1.81c beta, AC on HIGH. I am definitely feeling that there is more combat when I am in cities, less of it outside, and can also loot in peace. Definitely better overall feeling than before, I think you've found the right balance. Of course I got jumped in the first city, still with the SMG, hid inside a house with 2 large groups outside, the AAF and African Governementales. Problem is, they aren't enemies, so they ganged up on me (apparently the Governmentales hate African Rebels, but are friends with the AAF), with the support of 2 armed APCs. I wouldn't have survived such a mission start if two AT soldiers hadn't been kind enough to bring me some AT weapons inside the house. But with proper weaponry, and when the RNG spawns AAF and CSAT groups, there are no problems.

I am also playing with 10% loot to see how it goes. I definitely get much less loot, but then I fall back to the conversation we already had for the Realistic Loot setting: when choosing this option, I have chosen to get less loot, not less options to sell :). So maybe you can add the sellboxes that you have added to the checkpoints for the Realistic Loot option in the Normal Loot games?

Also, don't you think that a checkpoint officer would want at least one AT soldier in his team, in case an enemy APC comes along? (not a static launcher please)

You are giving us information as to how the caching works in Pilgrimage, how the spawning works, how you despawn the bodies, etc. The problem is that this information is everywhere in this thread, and it is difficult to find this info later. It would be nice to have this reference info in a readme inside the mission zip, or on the Armaholic page for example. For instance I don't remember how and when you clear AC bodies, the discussion took place some dozens of pages ago, IIRC there was a timer, but they never despawned if I didn't go away for more than 2km or something? Because in this first onslaught in my first city, I killed about 6 AT guys (African Conflict has teams of 3x RPG guys + 1 commander), but I only went to 400m-500m away from them when looting the area, and yet they disappeared.

[doc. caliban 34]

You are giving us information as to how the caching works in Pilgrimage, how the spawning works, how you despawn the bodies, etc. The problem is that this information is everywhere in this thread, and it is difficult to find this info later. It would be nice to have this reference info in a readme inside the mission zip, or on the Armaholic page for example.

The onus of this is somewhat on me as I've recently volunteered to work on a FAQ for Rydygier to help with some of the common, repeat questions we see in the thread. (Which I've asked myself a few times.) I am in the middle of moving at the moment though and have not gotten a chance to start.

I like your idea of a readme file as well. I will try to get something started this weekend. Maybe we can figure out a collaborative way of doing it, and I could mostly compile, then Rydygier could go over it just before putting it online.

-Doc