Strategic/operational ARMA ?

[mudpi 10]

Hi Guys,

I'm a big fan of the series, ever since I watched the first trailers for flashpoint back in the day I've been hooked! By far the thing that I most enjoy about the games is the immersion, the atmosphere. I have really enjoyed the campaign so far but it can be hard to build a cohesive narrative, or a reasonable/realistic justification for the objectives and goals that need to be achieved as part of a tactical level engagement. To try and get around this I've been trying to "port" ARMA over to a operational level war-game to see if having a whole theatre to play in with supply problems and resource based mission limitations as well as a strategic effect of particular assets and objectives would make the mission making process a touch more organic.

I've done some searching and surprisingly (so surprisingly that I think I must be missing something) it doesn't look like anyone's been doing this. I have trouble believing that given the inventiveness of the ARMA community so I'm pretty sure that I must be missing something - has anybody seen the sort of thing I'm talking about, for A3??

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 ----------

Hmmmm not sure if that image post worked out - but, I'm trying to show Altis rendered as a hexmap, with each hex representing ~125meters width, I'm going to keep the map transparent as well as rendering the landscape features on to the top of it so that it's easy to work out where any contacts or engagements take place, for a transfer back onto A3's Altis. I'm not sure that it's the "BEST" medium to use but I'm rendering the operational level stuff with Advanced Tactics Gold - just because it's so configurable.

[Rydygier 1309]

It is really interesting, what you wrote. I very like that direction of thoughts and plans. If needed, just few weeks ago I made function that procedurally covers map with hexagons of given size using markers. I planned, and still plan, to mod Arma to classical war-strategy-on-hexes, with "tokens" and all that stuff. But not sure, when I'll have time to continue this. For now there is only that function. Also perhaps you could find something more or less interesting in projects like ALiVE, PlannedAssault, WOO (and its IF's remake) or Hetman, even, if not exactly, what you described. Vanilla A2 had something called warfare too.

Image, to show it, you must upload somewhere online, then link it here with Insert Image.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Rydygier

[disco.modder 116]

The image you tried linking above needs to be uploaded to an image hosting site like imageshack then linked to forums, as we do not have access to your computers drives.

Re: idea, would it be something like a Risk game you're trying to put Arma into? I find that an interesting idea, but me personally Id still like to have elements of FPS/TPS and birds-eye-view RTS-style present. When a player goes to war and invade a territory, we can play out the battle from our units perspective. The Wargame series and RUSE comes to mind, except those games dont have FPS/TPS views and unit interaction with objects and the environment is limited compared to Arma - its just point and click to move/order. It would basically be a hybrid of strategical turn-based, RTS and FPS/TPS.

[mudpi 10]

It is really interesting, what you wrote. I very like that direction of thoughts and plans. If needed, just few weeks ago I made function that procedurally covers map with hexagons of given size using markers. I planned, and still plan, to mod Arma to classical war-strategy-on-hexes, with "tokens" and all that stuff. But not sure, when I'll have time to continue this. For now there is only that function. Also perhaps you could find something more or less interesting in projects like ALiVE, PlannedAssault, WOO (and its IF's remake) or Hetman, even, if not exactly, what you described. Vanilla A2 had something called warfare too.

Image, to show it, you must upload somewhere online, then link it here with Insert Image.

I think we are both on very similar lines - I think HETMAN is great to. I've found a couple of different ways to tile the ARMA maps using programs like Gimp, which has a mosaic function and can "Hex out" the map as coloured hex tiles in seconds or alternatively placing a trans parent layer of hexed tiles over the PDF map of Altis - or there's the program Hexographer that does something similar. While all those methods are great for making a image of Altis with either a hexagonal superimposed grid or Altis rendered as coloured Hexes, it's only any good for using with a "pen and paper" Board + Token war game or the VASSAL equivalent (worth a look if you haven't heard of it already). Right now I've got the map hexed with an overlying grid and superimposed transparent terrain features and roads from Advanced tactics Gold so when I move the units in the war game they are influenced by terrain type.

I didn't think it would take long but... Altis was thousands of Hexes, and reproducing each road was sooo slow. Now I'm trying to make the "counters" Advanced Tactics is super customisable but each unit has a bunch of differing characteristic's and as well as being true to the scale I've used it things like fire range, has to translate to it's ARMA equivalent.

Ideally when I finish It should be a strategic view of Altis, where you can move squads around and purse meaningful objectives. Hit convoys for supplies or raid depots damage radar site to allow a air strike through and move your assets in response to enemy activity.

It would of been great to use command modern air naval operations, but although it is a great tool for the sea and air battles in the Aegean, it's difficult to have it interface well with ARMA or to render land based operational level movements. The operational art of war iii is good for both but it's difficult to render an accurate map with it.

Anyway - I'll soldier on and if anyone hears of a similar project or has any tips pleas say, I'll try and post some pics after I've slept.

[Rydygier 1309]

Well, you of course can display transparent picture over the map with hexes made in GIMP or with other tool, but if you use in Arma internally procedural "hexagonize" script, it is doable also to perform same time quick and dynamic procedural topography analyze (statistical) to determine, what terrain is under each hex, so what movement/fight modifers it should give. Then you can also apply such script to any map, and code will do all job for you. Gameplay can be conducted wholly on the usual Arma's map view, so player can zoom, switch textures etc. I'm doing a bit similar topo analyze in Big Boss mode in Hetman, but not visible, based on squares and for other purpose.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Rydygier

[kremator 1065]

This sounds a little like Window Of Opportunity (WOO) by Mondkalb. A top down HETMAN would be wonderful too ;)

[mudpi 10]

Well, you of course can display transparent picture over the map with hexes made in GIMP or with other tool, but if you use in Arma internally procedural "hexagonize" script, it is doable also to perform same time quick and dynamic procedural topography analyze (statistical) to determine, what terrain is under each hex, so what movement/fight modifers it should give. Then you can also apply such script to any map, and code will do all job for you. Gameplay can be conducted wholly on the usual Arma's map view, so player can zoom, switch textures etc. I'm doing a bit similar topo analyze in Big Boss mode in Hetman, but not visible, based on squares and for other purpose.

oooh, nice!!

Good Luck with that man - the work you've done so far has been amazing - It's a great game already but adding that..... cohesion and scale to operations will make a big difference. I'm afraid I can't offer anything as well integrated as your work, but I'll look forward to seeing whatever you produce down the line.

[chortles 263]

What are your sentiments on this subject in light of the Zeus reveal? :D

[Rydygier 1309]

For now this project is meant as pure 2D map "boardgame" using markers only, no 3D representations of units, no real fights, all results calculated, like in the classical turn-based game of that kind. All is going on solely on the map view. Who knows, what (if/when) this will be at the end, currently it mainly awaits, till I get more time to work on this. Meanwhile screenshot from early tests of basic mechanics:

Test1

Edited May 9, 2014 by Rydygier

[kremator 1065]

Now wouldn't it be cool to click on a unit to attack and you actually take CONTROL of that unit and fight that battle? On completion you jump back into tactical view.

[Rydygier 1309]

I think, if it will be done someday, sooner or later there will be two modes. One as pure boardgame and second with some kind of 3D combat for settling each confrontation instead of abstract calculation.

[Artabrii 1]

Very interesting thread. My personal "El Dorado" is a stategic wargame with a tactical layer, or a tactical game with a good strategical layer, all played dynamically. Hexes are not needed in what I think. Best example to me are (cough, cough) the campaigns of BoB:Their Finest Hour and SWotL (I know, that's the Jurassic), where you could plan the missions on a strategical map attacking different enemy resources, and then play the mission as pilot on simulation level. The outcome of the planned missions would affect the enemy forces and strategical resources, and also your resources depending on losses you suffered. You would even win promotions and i.e. from a recruit wingman you could end as wing commander. CMANO is a game also mentioned which I like, but it lacks the dynamic level as all are scripted missions.

How to do this in ARMA? I think it could be a combination from elements of different mods: the ALIVE terrain analysis (military and civilian terrain division) could be used to assign to the faction controlling it "objective" points and "resource" points, to determine who is leading and what you can buy/build with the resources you get, in a similar way as done in the DUWS mission with the Army points and Command points (DUWS is quite close to what I'm thinking about). You should control a harbour or airport to receive reinforcements (invading faction), and maybe controlling a factory or mil. base with barracks could do for the defending faction. To allow for the amount of units required in operational campaign, the ALiVE profiling system would be most needed. And to control them all, HETMAN and BigBoss are the way to go (thanks for those Rydygier!). The most difficult thing IMHO would be getting HETMAN to control the units profiled by ALiVE, as I understand that is not doable at the moment.

I've done some very amateur modifications to DUWS and integrated it with AliVE for personal use, and you can get very fun, challenging missions that way. Getting HETMAN/BB in the equation could be epic!

[Rydygier 1309]

Indeed, such combinations are very tempting. Hetman development is for now put on hold, I must reconsider some things about feature, that is still wip and I'm busy with other project. After finishing that feature I could think about making it compatibile with ALiVE's profiling, long way though, so far looks extremely complicated and time consuming process, still, I didn't studied this really.

But back on topic, this quasi-board game, I think, will be (if...) turn-based, so all real time AI controllers are no go. I must instead write new AI thinking in turns, more like kind of chess AI or something. I think, every battle player may have a choice, if he like to resolve it fast, by abstract calculation, or rather preffer to fight personally in 3D (or perhaps even spectate only, but this one is doubtful). Only in such case appriopriate forces of both sides would be spawned temporary to perform the battle and removed after. Something like that.

Currently I slowly continue coding basic gameplay mechanics like moving tokens etc.

[chortles 263]

Now wouldn't it be cool to click on a unit to attack and you actually take CONTROL of that unit and fight that battle? On completion you jump back into tactical view.

For me the issue would be how to define "that battle", as well as whether upon your unit's death or vehicle's destruction you're allowed to "JIP" to another unit/vehicle or whether you're booted back out to the strategic/operational layer with the remainder of that engagement being automated.

[bhaz 0]

I've always thought of Arma's strategic gameplay being similar to the old Men of War RTS series, mods like IgiLoad definitely bring it a lot closer. As for the command side of things, the high command modules seem to work well enough for the moment (for human players anyway), so the only real barriers for a strategic game mode would be some kind of supply / reinforcement system.

[Rydygier 1309]

Some progress:

wip2 (647 kB)

To do:

- finish up basic mechanics & GUI;

- numerical battle settling formulas;

- optional 3D battles;

- opponent AI;

- a lot of other things.

[squeeze 22]

I just look at your pic and my jaw dropped, check mine out

it's also here

[Rydygier 1309]

:) Hex based MP mode combined with RTS elements? Wow, that may be very cool for MP players. I hope, your project will be successful, developing well and long living. Even if personally I'm SP only guy. Potential is there for sure.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised, so hex/turn-based game modes wasn't created here earlier. Or was, but I missed them...

I'm attempting to make here classical turn-based board wargame on hexes (tokens etc) with an option for resolving particular battles in 3D (any actual units are spawned only for these battles, otherwise opponents just are moving token markers across the board). SP only. Well, hotseat possible I guess. It's still on the basic mechanics coding stage, it was done more, than on the last wip picture (improved hex-to-hex pathfinding/movement costs calculation, basics of numerical way calculated battles), but most of it is behind-the-scenes stuff. Most interesting in all this to me will be creating cunning enough opponent AI. Kinda stuck lately due to lack of motivation after several months of intense coding something else, I must just wait it out and recharge my enthusiasm batteries.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Rydygier

[squeeze 22]

I did what you're doing with markers in 2010, when java was coming (don't know if it still is) I lost interest because I thought that would be better to code the engine in....good luck.