Iraq strike 'would open hell's gates'

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Sep. 10 2002,21:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 10 2002,19:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

no comment .....<span id='postcolor'>

I bet the wine is some cheap Califorina red <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 10 2002,21:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yeah , we would never sacrifiate a good ol' french red wine bottle to the dirty old hands of a yankee general

<span id='postcolor'>

SHUT UP! CALIFORNIA WINES ARE CATCHING UP!

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 10 2002,18:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ya know something i have just noticed, why is this thread still open? after all it is a MID EAST releated topic! the mods must be sleeping.<span id='postcolor'>

I know, we're talking about Afghanistan now, so ya, it's going way off. And look Ralph has brought up the subject of California wines, lol.

-=Die Alive=-

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Sep. 11 2002,00:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Sep. 10 2002,21:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 10 2002,19:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

no comment .....<span id='postcolor'>

I bet the wine is some cheap Califorina red <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 10 2002,21:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yeah , we would never sacrifiate a good ol' french red wine bottle to the dirty old hands of a yankee general

<span id='postcolor'>

SHUT UP! CALIFORNIA WINES ARE CATCHING UP!

<span id='postcolor'>

don't worry ralphy french wine is 25% anti freeze anyway. <span style='font-size:27pt;line-height:100%'>ha!</span>

and yer right your catching up, CA is just 104 steps below Ohio wine.

[Longinius 1]

"Why don't you ask them yourself."

I don't have to. I just saw for myself that many of them are happy the Taliban are gone, but they think the price was frightfully high. I guess they'd rather live in oppression with their loved ones, than live alone in a free land. Poor bastards.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 11 2002,00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ya know something i have just noticed, why is this thread still open? after all it is a MID EAST releated topic! the mods must be sleeping.<span id='postcolor'>

Doh

Maybe I should title edit it from Mid East to Israel/Palestine

Then sticky this one as USA vs The Arab World

Heheh.

As for asking people in Afghanistan what they think...lets do that in a year or two once the initial conflict is over.  Once we see if the western world will continue to help out with the rebuilding efforts.  After all, the US has a track record of dumping their contacts and agreements in Afghanistan when it doesnt suit their needs anymore  Hopefully that wont happen though.

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Sep. 11 2002,00:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 11 2002,00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ya know something i have just noticed, why is this thread still open? after all it is a MID EAST releated topic! the mods must be sleeping.<span id='postcolor'>

Doh

Maybe I should title edit it from Mid East to Israel/Palestine

Then sticky this one as USA vs The Arab World

Heheh.

As for asking people in Afghanistan what they think...lets do that in a year or two once the initial conflict is over.  Once we see if the western world will continue to help out with the rebuilding efforts.  After all, the US has a track record of dumping their contacts and agreements in Afghanistan when it doesnt suit their needs anymore  Hopefully that wont happen though.<span id='postcolor'>

or ya can just give the mid east thread the axe, i think it out lived its shelf life.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 11 2002,00:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Sep. 11 2002,00:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Sep. 10 2002,21:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 10 2002,19:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

no comment .....<span id='postcolor'>

I bet the wine is some cheap Califorina red <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 10 2002,21:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yeah , we would never sacrifiate a good ol' french red wine bottle to the dirty old hands of a yankee general

<span id='postcolor'>

SHUT UP! CALIFORNIA WINES ARE CATCHING UP!

<span id='postcolor'>

don't worry ralphy french wine is 25% anti freeze anyway. <span style='font-size:27pt;line-height:100%'>ha!</span>

and yer right your catching up, CA is just 104 steps below Ohio wine. <span id='postcolor'>

You can get some exellent Californian red, they are actually older vines, as they survived the European blights. You Californians know how hard it is to fly in with seeds or fruit by plane.

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 10 2002,18:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">or ya can just give the mid east thread the axe, i think it out lived its shelf life.<span id='postcolor'>

No don't I'm going to go back and read some old post and copy the good posts and use them as my own.

-=Die Alive=-

[Paratrooper 0]

There is so much middle east news it is better to have it in one thread.

[Jester983 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Sep. 10 2002,03:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 10 2002,18:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">or ya can just give the mid east thread the axe, i think it out lived its shelf life.<span id='postcolor'>

No don't I'm going to go back and read some old post and copy the good posts and use them as my own.

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

remeber you have to put " " marks around the words other wise those people who wrote that post can sue.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

The only way for an invasion on Iraq with little civilain casauslties is if the Americans are willing to take casaulties. They will have to cut out the weeks of bombing, and instead go for a few bombing missions in unpopulated areas. The Americans would then have to fight larger numbers of enemies, therefor taking more casaulties. Personaly, I would prefer to see more dead Americans, than Iraqi civilians. Soldiers go and fight volunteeringly, Iraqi civilians do not get a choice wiether they are bombed or not.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 11 2002,02:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The only way for an invasion on Iraq with little civilain casauslties is if the Americans are willing to take casaulties. They will have to cut out the weeks of bombing, and instead go for a few bombing missions in unpopulated areas. The Americans would then have to fight larger numbers of enemies, therefor taking more casaulties. Personaly, I would prefer to see more dead Americans, than Iraqi civilians. Soldiers go and fight volunteeringly, Iraqi civilians do not get a choice wiether they are bombed or not.<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe you will think differently when you country's soldiers are fighting along side our soldiers. That was an idiotic thing to say.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Sep. 11 2002,03:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 11 2002,02:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The only way for an invasion on Iraq with little civilain casauslties is if the Americans are willing to take casaulties. They will have to cut out the weeks of bombing, and instead go for a few bombing missions in unpopulated areas. The Americans would then have to fight larger numbers of enemies, therefor taking more casaulties. Personaly, I would prefer to see more dead Americans, than Iraqi civilians. Soldiers go and fight volunteeringly, Iraqi civilians do not get a choice wiether they are bombed or not.<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe you will think differently when you country's soldiers are fighting along side our soldiers. That was an idiotic thing to say.<span id='postcolor'>

Quite, deliberately endangering your own soldiers is disgusting, not at all preferable to the unfortunate accidental deaths in bombing.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 11 2002,03:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Sep. 11 2002,03:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 11 2002,02:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The only way for an invasion on Iraq with little civilain casauslties is if the Americans are willing to take casaulties. They will have to cut out the weeks of bombing, and instead go for a few bombing missions in unpopulated areas. The Americans would then have to fight larger numbers of enemies, therefor taking more casaulties. Personaly, I would prefer to see more dead Americans, than Iraqi civilians. Soldiers go and fight volunteeringly, Iraqi civilians do not get a choice wiether they are bombed or not.<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe you will think differently when you country's soldiers are fighting along side our soldiers. That was an idiotic thing to say.<span id='postcolor'>

Quite, deliberately endangering your own soldiers is disgusting, not at all preferable to the unfortunate accidental deaths in bombing.<span id='postcolor'>

So you are advocating bombing of the very unarmed civilians we are supposedly trying to help by ousting Saddam?

Great.

The point is well made that the US is going to suffer heavier casualties in urban areas where there are larger concentrations of civilians.  And it's not just a matter of dropping leaflets and saying 'Get out, we are going to bomb here'  These are those peoples homes.  So you bomb the hell out of an urban area, and kill a lot of civilians in an effort to get the soldiers that might be holed up there as well.  So what is the balance?  Because if you start dropping bombs into urban areas, you're going to create at least one more generation of people who see the western world as evil... and thats going to be without Saddam ever saying a word or making a comment about it.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Sep. 11 2002,03:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 11 2002,03:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Sep. 11 2002,03:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 11 2002,02:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The only way for an invasion on Iraq with little civilain casauslties is if the Americans are willing to take casaulties. They will have to cut out the weeks of bombing, and instead go for a few bombing missions in unpopulated areas. The Americans would then have to fight larger numbers of enemies, therefor taking more casaulties. Personaly, I would prefer to see more dead Americans, than Iraqi civilians. Soldiers go and fight volunteeringly, Iraqi civilians do not get a choice wiether they are bombed or not.<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe you will think differently when you country's soldiers are fighting along side our soldiers. That was an idiotic thing to say.<span id='postcolor'>

Quite, deliberately endangering your own soldiers is disgusting, not at all preferable to the unfortunate accidental deaths in bombing.<span id='postcolor'>

So you are advocating bombing of the very unarmed civilians we are supposedly trying to help by ousting Saddam?

Great.

The point is well made that the US is going to suffer heavier casualties in urban areas where there are larger concentrations of civilians.  And it's not just a matter of dropping leaflets and saying 'Get out, we are going to bomb here'  These are those peoples homes.  So you bomb the hell out of an urban area, and kill a lot of civilians in an effort to get the soldiers that might be holed up there as well.  So what is the balance?  Because if you start dropping bobms into urban areas, you're going to create at least one more generation of people who see the western world as evil... and thats going to be without Saddam ever saying a word or making a comment about it.<span id='postcolor'>

There will be no carpet bombing of cities, little urban resistance and a poorly equiped and trained enemy. Deliberatly endangering your troops is a conscious act, and wrong. Accidental deaths are just that. There is a significant moral difference.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 11 2002,03:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There will be no carpet bombing of cities, little urban resistance and a poorly equiped and trained enemy. Deliberatly endangering your troops is a conscious act, and wrong. Accidental deaths are just that. There is a significant moral difference.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you using your crystal ball to tell this?

It is naive to believe that Iraq lacks trained and equiped soldiers.  And in an urban situation, even an untrained soldier in an entrenched position can inflict heavy casualties on an invading force.  As much as we might all want to believe that the average Iraqi will gladly embrace the west 'liberating' them, I think any US campaign in Iraq will involve a lot of pine boxes landing back in CONUS.

I am not saying that is a good thing, or right. All I am saying is that without being willing to inflict a great number of civilian deaths in collateral bomb damage, the US had better go into Iraq with a willingness to take far more casualties than they have since Vietnam.

And we all remember how the US public reacted to 19 deaths in Mogadishu.  How will they react to the hundreds or thousands that will come in street to street urban fighting over the space of weeks or months?

[Col. Kurtz 0]

I would rather see dead New Zealand soldiers, even if I was one of those soldiers, dead in a coffin rather than thousands of civilians who were killed by 'smart bombs' that needed to go to school for a little longer.

And so what do yuo reckon, we shoudl liberate the people by killing them? Well, we managed to win tis war with minimal Allied casaulities thanks to you lossing you entire family when a 'smart bomb' that was aimed at a target a few hundred metres down the road fell next to your house. You may now enjoy all the freedoms that come with your liberation. Im sure that you will see that your sacrifice along with the hundreds of other sacrafices like yours were all for a good cause.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 10 2002,17:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this thread is a snakepit!

I'll tell my psychologist buddies!

they'll have a ball with this...

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes sure, you should participate more so they will really have a blast!

(I don't know which part of the thread you are referring to so...)

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Sep. 10 2002,23:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How is it that you are in EOD then, were you forced?<span id='postcolor'>

decided to get an EOD formation right after my first trip in bosnia ... but you see , neutralizing a 60mm mortar round is not the same as disarming a 500lb bomb ......

when i took this formation , i didn't think about the big ass bombs the planes usei'm an EOD specialised element , it means that i am a specialist like would be a machinegunner or a grenadier , but i don't have any big-ass gun and i'm not running around in combat conditions

and one other thing that bother me if we go in irak : the kevlar suits weights a lot and the heat is horrible in those suits .....

i simply hope i won't go there

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 11 2002,05:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would rather see dead New Zealand soldiers, even if I was one of those soldiers, dead in a coffin rather than thousands of civilians who were killed by 'smart bombs' that needed to go to school for a little longer.

And so what do yuo reckon, we shoudl liberate the people by killing them? Well, we managed to win tis war with minimal Allied casaulities thanks to you lossing you entire family when a 'smart bomb' that was aimed at a target a few hundred metres down the road fell next to your house. You may now enjoy all the freedoms that come with your liberation. Im sure that you will see that your sacrifice along with the hundreds of other sacrafices like yours were all for a good cause.<span id='postcolor'>

Well i think life has become very cheap. Life now a days is viewd after nationalaty status and color. I think that's one of the main reason the terrorist prefer to attak american's more then anything else because they now theyr martyr will be on the headnews on each major news corporation. Today in a war like afganistan is more tragic to lose 10 us marines then bombarding a village full of people.

It's tragic thing. After my oppinion all life is precious even the black guy in africa who still think's that earth is flat ( J/K

)

[Longinius 1]

I think those people that advocate bombings and attacks on Iraq should watch footage of the real casualties, of the people that really suffer from the bombings.

Watching a program yesterday about civilians in Afghanistan I can only tell you that it is not as clean and neat as western media would have you believe.

Further more I find it totally appaling that the victims of the WTC bombing have recieved millions in donations, while the truly needy in Afghanistan have gotten nothing.

But then again, if it doesn effect you or anyone you know its easy enough to ignore.

[Oligo 1]

Nuff' said...

[ran 0]

bbbbaaah we won't go anyway .........

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 10 2002,08:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Sep. 10 2002,23:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How is it that you are in EOD then, were you forced?<span id='postcolor'>

decided to get an EOD formation right after my first trip in bosnia ... but you see , neutralizing a 60mm mortar round is not the same as disarming a 500lb bomb ......

when i took this formation , i didn't think about the big ass bombs the planes usei'm an EOD specialised element , it means that i am a specialist like would be a machinegunner or a grenadier , but i don't have any big-ass gun and i'm not running around in combat conditions

and one other thing that bother me if we go in irak : the kevlar suits weights a lot and the heat is horrible in those suits .....

i simply hope i won't go there<span id='postcolor'>

Can't you just say, "i'm not going" when they ask you to go?

You can still choose what missions you accept and what you don't accept, right?

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Sep. 11 2002,13:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 10 2002,080)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Sep. 10 2002,23:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How is it that you are in EOD then, were you forced?<span id='postcolor'>

decided to get an EOD formation right after my first trip in bosnia ... but you see , neutralizing a 60mm mortar round is not the same as disarming a 500lb bomb ......

when i took this formation , i didn't think about the big ass bombs the planes usei'm an EOD specialised element , it means that i am a specialist like would be a machinegunner or a grenadier , but i don't have any big-ass gun and i'm not running around in combat conditions

and one other thing that bother me if we go in irak : the kevlar suits weights a lot and the heat is horrible in those suits .....

i simply hope i won't go there<span id='postcolor'>

Can't you just say, "i'm not going" when they ask you to go?

You can still choose what missions you accept and what you don't accept, right?<span id='postcolor'>

not really ....