Real Armor Mod

[maturin 12]

That's a pretty silly result, but catastrophic detonations are dangerous, even for nearby armored vehicles.

Cooking off T-72s set Abrams on fire during the Gulf War, disabling them.

[gliptal 25]

Probably the only way an Iraqi tank disabled an Abrams in that war.

Yay!

[Damian90 696]

Nah, there were several occasions when from close range firing to the hull sides they were able to disable and wound some crew members, there was even a list made with help of US DoD reports. Overall in 1991 US had disabled + lost 21 tanks, with only ~5-8 were total losses (completely burned) and there were onlu 1 KIA crew member.

In a period from 2003 to 2008 US had 80 tanks damaged, from these, 20 were reported lost in combat, rest were repaired, very small crew casualties, most were from small arms fire when standing in open hatches and some from very large IED blast effects.

Recently Iraq reported they had 28 tanks attacked (some miltiple times were hit from differend kind of AT weapons) with only in 5 there were reported penetrations, and I counted 2 or 3 that were definetely lost. Edition: Small update, incompetent Iraqi Army just lost two more M1A1's, by simply driving one in to a ditch, and abandining it with a second fully operational one and a column of several M113's and MRAP's... both tanks had been burned by ISIL terrorists along with several M113's and MRAP's, terrorists took some M113's as trophy's. Yeah I understand loosing a combat vehicle in... combat, but this, this is a complete and absolute fail of Iraqi Army, US should never sell them that equipment and invest in their training, complete waste of time, money and precious vehicles.

For me this is example of how extremely good M1's armor protection and survivability of vehicle and it's crew is.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Damian90

[gliptal 25]

Yes I was referring mainly to the first Desert Storm.

Yay!

[scajolly 14]

No, that's in vanilla. There's a ticket on the Feedback Tracker about it already.

And holy jesus is it powerful. I blew up a small truck and daisychained it bigger and bigger, from truck to APC to tank. /o\

[maturin 12]

Nah, there were several occasions when from close range firing to the hull sides they were able to disable and wound some crew members, there was even a list made with help of US DoD reports. Overall in 1991 US had disabled + lost 21 tanks, with only ~5-8 were total losses (completely burned) and there were onlu 1 KIA crew member.

In a period from 2003 to 2008 US had 80 tanks damaged, from these, 20 were reported lost in combat, rest were repaired, very small crew casualties, most were from small arms fire when standing in open hatches and some from very large IED blast effects.

Recently Iraq reported they had 28 tanks attacked (some miltiple times were hit from differend kind of AT weapons) with only in 5 there were reported penetrations, and I counted 2 or 3 that were definetely lost. Edition: Small update, incompetent Iraqi Army just lost two more M1A1's, by simply driving one in to a ditch, and abandining it with a second fully operational one and a column of several M113's and MRAP's... both tanks had been burned by ISIL terrorists along with several M113's and MRAP's, terrorists took some M113's as trophy's. Yeah I understand loosing a combat vehicle in... combat, but this, this is a complete and absolute fail of Iraqi Army, US should never sell them that equipment and invest in their training, complete waste of time, money and precious vehicles.

For me this is example of how extremely good M1's armor protection and survivability of vehicle and it's crew is.

Damian, do you have an specific information on the penetrations? Was there anything besides that one side turret penetrations and hits to the non-ballistic skirts?

[Predator.v2 10]

Is this mod finally dedicated mp server compatible?

[Damian90 696]

Damian, do you have an specific information on the penetrations? Was there anything besides that one side turret penetrations and hits to the non-ballistic skirts?

As far as I can tell, in non of accidents, frontal turret or hull armor was defeated. Mostly it was hull sides, sometimes (but very rare) turret sides, some incidents included turret top and hull rear hits.

Most attacks with hand held anti tank weapons in hull/turret sides ended only with minor damage and some crew WIA, there were at least one KIA when vehicle was hit by RPG-29, it was the loader that had been killed sitting directly on shaped charge jet path.

There were some, very rare incidents where ammunition storage was set in fire, however safety design sollutions worked as designed, blast doors prevented fire, fumes and heat to get inside crew compartment, and blow off panels released dangerous energy upward and outside vehicle.

In fact there was a paradox, where dedicated anti tank weapons had very low efficency against tanks (and infantry fighting vehicle if equipped with proper armor), and most dangerous threat were IED's.

I can search for you some lists that are more specific but only for US tanks.

First list for OIF:

-M1A1 damaged by 4 RPGs on 2004/03/07 in Ramadi

-M1A1 attacked with 2 RPGs on 2004/04/08 in Baghdad, resulting in 4 broken hubs and 1 minor WIA

-M1 tank hit and disabled by 2 RPG rounds on 2004/04/10; tank burning

-M1 hit by RPG on 2004/06/13 in Baghdad, damaging the gun tube and causing 3 minor WIA

-M1A2 tank hit by RPG and damaged on 2004/08/23 in Baghdad, causing 1 KIA and 2 WIA

-M1 tank hit by RPG fire on 2004/11/09 in Fallujah, resulting in a damaged turret and main gun

-M1 tank hit by RPG on 2004/11/30 in Bayji, causing 1 minor WIA (most likely unbuttoned); no tank damage

-M1 tank hit by 2 RPGs on 2005/02/12 in Mosul, resulting in minor damage to the engine compartment (disabled though)

-M1 tank hit by RPG in rear on 2005/05/17 in Khalidiyah, resulting in a mobility kill

-M1A1 hit by RPG on left side road wheels on 2005/08/27 in Khalidyah, damaging the radio, track and a road wheel

-M1A1 hit by RPG on left side of tank on 2005/10/22 in Khalidyah, damaging two road wheels and a hub

-M1A1 hit by RPG in front right road wheel on 2006/03/17 in Ramadi, resulting in minor damage to the tank and 1 WIA (possible concussion)

-M1A1 hit by 2 RPGs striking the TC's hatch on 2006/04/17 in Khalidiyah, resulting in 3 WIA (1 serious and 2 routine) and damage to the loader's hatch (probably got the hatches confused)

-M1 hit by numerous RPGs on 2006/10/07 in Ad Diwaniyah, resulting in a destroyed tank (fire)

-M1A2 hit by RPG fire on 2006/10/27 in Sadr City, resulting in damage to #5 and 6 skirts and 3 minor WIA

-M1A1 hit by RPG on 2007/02/02 in Ramadi, resulting in damage to the left track and immobilizing the tank

-M1A1 hit by RPG on TC's cupola on 2007/03/09 in Fallujah, causing minor damage to vision blocks

-M1A1 hit by RPG on 2007/03/09 in Ramadi, damaging the #2 left road wheel and blowing a skirt off

-M1 hit on hatch (roof) by RPG on 2008/02/20, resulting in 1 KIA and 3 WIA

-M1A2 hit by RPG on 2007/05/06 in Baghdad, resulting in 1 WIA (shapnel to right shoulder) and the tank losing power

-M1A2 hit by RPG on left side on 2007/05/03 in Baghdad, resulting in a sponson box fire and loss of turret power; 1-2 inches wide by 8-10 inches deep hole in left side turret

-M1A1 hit by RPG on 2008/03/29 in Baghdad, causing 2 WIA (1 routine and 1 RTD); the armor wasn't penetrated

-M1A1 hit by RPG on 2008/04/06, resulting in electrical problems on the tank (loose battery most likely)

-M1 hit by RPG fire (up to 4) on 2008/04/27, resulting in damage to the left side of the tank

-M1 hit by RPG in the rear on 2008/04/28, resulting in a punctured fuel cell; mobility kill

-M1A2 hit by RPG on bustle rack on 2008/05/04 and another M1A2 hit by EFP in the same engagement; 1 WIA (RTD with face lacerations)

-M1A1 hit by IRL (improvised rocket launcher) on rear of turret on 2007/02/17 in Fallujah, resulting in 4 WIA (3 priority and 1 routine) and a damaged EAPU; no hull penetration

-M1A1 hit by IRL on 2006/11/30 in Ramadi, resulting in penetration of the #1 left skirt and a 1 inch deep by 2 inches deep hole in the hull (copper residue, so HEAT)

-M1 hit by rocket on 2004/02/08 in Husaybah, resulting in penetration of the turret ring; components of a 62mm Chinese rocket were found (probably HEAT)

-M1 hit by RPG on the left side turret on 2005/12/27, resulting in damage to the sponson box, antenna mount and armor; no penetration into the turret

-M1A1 hit by rocket in the left side turret on 2006/01/05 in Khalidiyah, resulting in the turret losing power (minor damage though); 68mm SPAM-V flechette rocket

-M1 hit by IRL on 2006/05/18 in Khalidiyah, resulting in rear grill door over the engine damaged and the tank running in emergency engine mode; a 68mm French SPAM-V flechette rocket was stuck in the grill door

-M1A2 hit by RPG on 2008/04/24, resulting in damage to the turret ring and 2 WIA (shrapnel to bodies). {Appears to have been a lucky hit that made it through the turret ring}

-M1A1 fired at by several RPGs on 2004/04/07 in Khalidiyah, resulting in #2 skirt penetration

-M1A2 hit by RPG on #2 skirt on right side on 2006/12/25, resulting in 1 WIA (gunner has shrapnel to the legs); said to have been by spall, though the hull wasn't penetrated (partial penetration?)

-M1A2 hit by RPG on 2007/06/03 in Balad, resulting in a hull penetration and 1 WIA (shrapnel to lower left leg)

-M1A2 hit by RPG on 2007/04/20, resulting in minor damage to #3 skirt and hub underneath broken

-M1A2 hit by RPG on 2007/05/15 in Baghdad, hitting the left side #1 skirt and damaging hubs #6 and 7

-M1A1 (TUSK) hit by RPG on 2008/05/07, resulting in 4 ERA tiles blown off; RPG hit area of left #1 and #2 skirt

-M1A2 hit by RPG on 2006/02/13, resulting in a broken hub

-M1A2 hit by RPG on 2007/07/31, resulting in the tank leaking hydraulic fluid

-M1A2 hit by RPG on 2007/05/17 in Baghdad, resulting in minor damage to a hub and road wheel

-M1A1 hit by RPG on 2007/02/14 in Ramadi, resulting in a minor hydraulic leak

-The RPG-29 attack from the front where the shooter was standing between two others for concealment, hit the front skirt (in the video and in the AAR); just a ruined skirt. Date 2008/05/13

-The RPG-29 attack from the side where the shooter again was using two others for concealment, where the shot hit the left turret side, caused one US KIA and two WIA going by the AAR. I listed it as one KIA in the past (there was no reports of WIA). Date 2007/09/05

-The RPG-29 attack where the shooter hits a passing M1## in the rear caused 3 WIA. Date 2007/08/05

And here from ODS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_M1_Abrams

There is a data table lower on the page..

Edited July 13, 2014 by Damian90

[olds 15]

Is this mod finally dedicated mp server compatible?

Hi Predator. I've never tried it with dedicated server--what is the problem that occurs?

I'm afraid I'm not enough of a scripting whiz to understand what you'd need to change about the mod to make it dedicated-server compatible. But perhaps someone more script saavy than me can chime in on that subject...

[maturin 12]

Wow, definitely saving that list.

[olds 15]

fennek

Wow, those are some great tools! Unfortunately it is crashing instead of running for me right now. :756:

---------- Post added at 14:13 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

I wonder, have you tested out the arma3diagnostics.exe (makes hitpoints visible) ?

It shows just how strange and inconsistent the hitpoint system is defined - example: Spawn (vanilla) Moira APC, enable hitpoint markers. Use 12.7mm APFDS round and shoot the track. If there is a red globe around your hit location the track takes damage. If you hit inbetween the red globe, it does no damage at all to the track... The Hitpoint defines a volume around the point in hitpoints LOD. Apparently, if a shot collides with firegeometry within that Volume, it counts as hit to that specific Hitpoint Class the Volume belongs to.

It doesnt count if a shot passes through the Volume without hitting fire geometry. Therefore, if you just define armorplates in FireGeometry LOD and some hitpoints within your interior those hitpoints they will never get triggered. You need objects inside your armor-hull that penetrating projectiles can collide with. At least that what it looks like to me after running some tests.

Now heres the inconsistent part: if you take a look at the Marid for example, it seems to have HitHull Volumes outside of the armor layer... which defeats the purpose of internal damage and penetration armor, as everything is controlled now by Hitpoints regardless of main armor. The penetration there only matters if a passenger is directly hit as well or not.

Wait, it's working now... playing around with it...

[DaViSFiT 21]

Hmm have you plans for the future? perhaps add your great work to AGM? Damn, with your mod all tankers would love you. Just not enough people know it :(

It it normal with this IED? We get heavy damage from placed ied's and all other sorts of explosives.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Numrollen

[olds 15]

Hmm have you plans for the future? perhaps add your great work to AGM? Damn, with your mod all tankers would love you. Just not enough people know it :(

It it normal with this IED? We get heavy damage from placed ied's and all other sorts of explosives.

Thanks Numrollen. The trouble with integrating other mods is that any rockets or missiles need to be re-worked for RAM (Rocket & Missile penetration is broken in vanilla Arma).

IED's should work pretty well, for a couple of versions now, tank tracks have been more vulnerable than they were before--are you having trouble with IED's?

As for future work, these days I'm working on RAM compatibility for AiA and a couple of other mods. The goal is to see it working properly and fully with historical weapons & vehicles. There's only so much that I can do with vanilla A3 vehicles...

[DaViSFiT 21]

Hmm AGM is a gameplay mod, like ACE2. Is it not possible to make things compatible with your mod? Or are orginal files needed and rewritten? I followed your mod since release and never understood if there is a solution in the future to get realistic penetration in arma3 multiplayer on a easy way. We really miss RAM on multiplayer sessions, its totally crap to get 1shot on the front everytime. Every modder makes his missiles stronger then arma3 vanilla and with this high values we always get crit damage (and explode). It would be awesome and needed that one mod brings all this stuff to one level. We would use it even the mod is 2GB of data.

IED's feels too strong, they destroy a tank completely ;)

The mods i see in the future for us: Vanilla, BWMod, RHS: Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, all aircraft mods from Peral, John_Spartan & Saul and the team around fullerpj.

Only Bwmod features a compromise with their passive defense system.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Numrollen

[olds 15]

@Numrollen:

-IED's: RAM vehicles (tanks & APC's anyway) are actually more resistant to IED's than vanilla. So it sounds like the IED's have Hit/indirectHit values which are much too high(?) Even in RAM, if a weapon has a high enough Hit value it will destroy the vehicle. (This is as it should be--it's the only way to simulate massive high-explosive attacks like bombs, etc.).

-RHS Mod: I know those guys went into the mod building fire geometry that would work with RAM. So I will very likely add their ATGM's/RPG's to RAM--that should make the mod completely compatible.

-BWMod: As long as they built realistic fire geometry for their new vehicles (Leopard 2A6, for example), RAM will work with the exception of their new ATGM's/RPG's. They don't have many, so I could add those to RAM and it would probably be compatible at that point. Can't promise, but I will look into it.

-Aircraft mods: RAM should make no difference to these at all unless they include new (missile/rocket) weapons.

Fixing Rockets/Missiles is something that I add to RAM. It's not a lot of work - it's just hard to keep up with it every time a mod is revised. Vehicle adjustment can be quite a bit more work, and the mod authors must do it as they are the only ones with the vehicle source files.

Until I finally create that NATO-Pact mod, there are really two mods I'm committed to integrating: AiA-SA and another very large one that's in the works. It's much easier to stay up to date with large mods than to be responsible for breaking a dozen little ones. :)

How many people are in your Arma group Numrollen?

[DaViSFiT 21]

hmm we just noticed that ied with RAM did more damage then in vanilla. Is there a normal ied that really can destroy a tank in real life? I mean an ied that can be transported by 1 person ;)

-RHS: sounds great

-Bwmod: they have a Pzf3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust_3 and the damage values are so big that a APC is killed instant. yes its a good AT weapon with a massive warhead (DP) but for me its not very realistic when every hit, anywhere on the vehicle is a kill. The Bw Puma with highest armor addons are capable of 30mm ap resistance. In Arma 20-30mm will kill all apcs really fast.

we are about 20ppl but play with 3 other clans the same mods.

[hlfritz 1]

Olds,

I am kinda trying to come back to A3 after a hiatus, and this is what I have hoped for - for many years in the ARMA game series. It could give enough realism to armored combat to be fun and somewhat realistic. The hit point system just turns me off, and in the case of the stock game I would call ARMA series an infantry simulator only.

So with that out of the way, what does your mod work with as it stands? Stock A3 armored vehicles? Anything else?

Hopefully you are able to help AiA - SA out and BI can fix the flipping over of tanks/vehicles. that would be very cool then as well.

Thx for your work!

[olds 15]

Olds,

I am kinda trying to come back to A3 after a hiatus, and this is what I have hoped for - for many years in the ARMA game series. It could give enough realism to armored combat to be fun and somewhat realistic. The hit point system just turns me off, and in the case of the stock game I would call ARMA series an infantry simulator only.

So with that out of the way, what does your mod work with as it stands? Stock A3 armored vehicles? Anything else?

Hopefully you are able to help AiA - SA out and BI can fix the flipping over of tanks/vehicles. that would be very cool then as well.

Thx for your work!

You are most welcome, glad you're back. Currently it works only with vanilla A3 vehicles. But you're in for a treat as I am working with the CUP group to integrate it with AiA-SA (or at least release a mod for AiA-SA). Vehicle flipping should be solved soon too--not by me but because all the A2 vehicles in AiA are being updated to A3/PhysX standards AFAIK.

TBH, the vanilla A3 version was more of a test--the real goal is a full-on NATO-Pact variant of AiA-SA with a robust range of historically accurate vehicles and ammo. I am also planning on adding RAM compatibility with one or two other popular mods: RHS' eastern vehicles and maybe the Bundeswehr mod for folks who are into more modern stuff.

[hlfritz 1]

understood - thx for your reply!

vanilla, stock vehicles will be enough to get a feel for this.

[Defunkt 431]

...one or two other popular mods: RHS' eastern vehicles...

I'm guessing you mean Reyhard's RDS eastern vehicles?

Which leads me to ask; is it also likely that we'll see the RAM implementation, to whatever extent it presently exists in RHS, amended to keep pace with the roadmap you've outlined for CUP? Ideally we want armour to inter-operate correctly between as many mods as possible (with RHS at the top of that list IMHO).

[olds 15]

I'm guessing you mean Reyhard's RDS eastern vehicles?

Which leads me to ask; is it also likely that we'll see the RAM implementation, to whatever extent it presently exists in RHS, amended to keep pace with the roadmap you've outlined for CUP? Ideally we want armour to inter-operate correctly between as many mods as possible (with RHS at the top of that list IMHO).

Reyhard, yes. Ideally... but it's a lot of work to stay on top of other's mods--particularly as I barely have the spare time to keep up with my own. :) So I'm picking and choosing. By all means lobby your favorite mod to PM me and I'll try to teach them to do the work! ;) RAM implementation at the base level is "just": a) getting rid of global hit-points, b) restoring penetration values to rockets & missiles (which is otherwise broken in Arma 3).

The RAM "platinum package" involves me digging endlessly across books, the web, and ballistic formulas trying to generate the most realistic data possible. Which is actually a rather vast amount of work. But it's fun and--for a sim-head like myself--there's not as much point in getting rid of hitpoints if your armor battles are based on fantasy or random values. I plan on putting the best data available in any (public) sim out there. I'm only really going to that trouble for the AiA/NATO-Pact group of vehicles & weapons. Platinum package vehicles will also (eventually) have extra armor materials incorporated to take into account certain composite armors and ERA (a bonus feature added to the rocket/missile fix). But I'm happy to help sim-oriented modders do the full set of work for their own mods if they are so inclined.

Most extra equipment mods are more about looks than simulation, however, and I don't forsee those modders being all that attracted to doing the extra work involved in integrating with RAM (nor do I have the time to do it myself).

(Daffy, stop doing that! You'll go blind!)

[hlfritz 1]

agreed - the RHS Escalation stuff looks superb.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184842-RHS-Escalation-(AFRF-and-USAF)-Release-0-3-0

Olds, not to rain on your party - but it might already be close to the NATO/Warsaw Pact stuff you were intending.

[Damian90 696]

As for RHS armor and ammunition penetration system, well it is based on Olds briliant ideas, however it might be also a bit more complex, but this is only my own opinion based about what I know about current progress of work in RHS and what we have in RAM, but I can be wrong, so RAM actually can have the same level of progress or even larger.

Of course RAM is also very good tool to actually make vanilla stuff working better with RHS and vice versa.

[olds 15]

agreed - the RHS Escalation stuff looks superb.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?184842-RHS-Escalation-(AFRF-and-USAF)-Release-0-3-0

Olds, not to rain on your party - but it might already be close to the NATO/Warsaw Pact stuff you were intending.

AFAIK, like the Bundeswehr mod, RHS represents current vehicles and loadouts. I'm talking about a historical setting with rigorously researched data values, including (reasonably) correct OOB--ammo availability, squad composition, vehicle availability, that sort of thing. One of (several) reasons I'm not interested in the latest equipment is that weapon and armor research gets extremely speculative to the point of fantasy. But a realistic Cold War mod--along with WW2 like IFA3--would make ALiVE a lot more interesting for my simmy, combined-arms tastes.

RHS is unusual in that they seem to be paying attention to armor values more than your typical mod. That being said, I have no idea what those values are as of yet, and their ATGM's won't work accurately until integrated with the RAM scripts (or some other such fix).

But I've talked with them a bit and I'll be happy to work with them after MANW. And there certainly may be room for collaboration on a Cold War variant if they decide to expand in that direction.

[Damian90 696]

RHS is unusual in that they seem to be paying attention to armor values more than your typical mod. That being said, I have no idea what those values are as of yet,

I was the guy making calculations, it was a difficult task you know. For Russian stuff not that much, as recently a lot of data become avaiable about armor design and composition, so realistic calculations can be made. As for US armor, it was a pain, simply because TE values calculations at some point become incredible if I used standard "Burlington" armor model that can be seen in declassified documents from R&D phase of the program. I think it was a problem of proportions between hard layers of armor and air gaps, more hard layers you have at specific thickness of whole array you get very high and more balanced protection values against KE and CE, less hard layers and more air gaps (or larger air gaps) you get less protection against KE and more against CE.

And there is still problem that my data table for different TE values of different materials is not fully complete, also I don't know how to calculate NERA/NxRA interaction to the equation. So I needed to make some compromises here and there, because modern Abrams variants would have just insane KE protection values for front hull and turret armor.

So yeah, the problem is lack of data, especially on how exactly armor looks like at turret and hull front, how it's internal structure looks like.

I suspect I could achieve desired armor values using ceramics, but then again, documents and evidence are rather clear, ceramics were never used in armor of these tanks.