Soldier protection (dev branch)

[Variable 322]

Can someone please enlighten me on the following - There's been a techrep/whatever rep describing a new protection system which looked promising. Since then I feel nothing has changed. Were the improvements mentioned are still to come, or I have just missed them in game?

[Maxzy 12]

Can someone please enlighten me on the following - There's been a techrep/whatever rep describing a new protection system which looked promising. Since then I feel nothing has changed. Were the improvements mentioned are still to come, or I have just missed them in game?

Well, actually everything that was described in that oprep was already in the game and is still there - they already moved from intial system where "the actual protection of soldiers stemmed from their predefined classes, rather than actual equipment" at that moment. So now soldier protection is based on actual gear that he wears, no matter what class or rank he's got. They mentioned some other improvements, without specifying what are they exactly, but also mentioned that implemetation of those improvements currently limited by technology and actual performace of the game.

[Variable 322]

Thanks MAXZY for the clear explanation.

[andrewza 10]

CBA is there to hold your insides inside you when you get hit and is more geared toward shrapnel damage that rounds, newer CBA's are much better with larger plate areas than ones 10 years ago but still most people who get shot don't get shot straight on the armor plates at that perfect angle, either way 99% of people that do survive are disorientated and not combat effective ie the game is unrealistic at present.

Also one other factor is the head area, it needs a major revamp and i believe the hit boxes and penetration of weapons does in general.

Body armour is rather good at stopping bullets. In the recent battle of Bangui last year a number of solders where shot at close range (under 100m a few with in 10m) not one round got through the armoured plate.

Of course due to the rest of what you said 15 people still died by either getting hit by something bigger than a rifle or not on the plate or by removing said plates or armour.

So for me the level of protection for where the plate is should be increased but should be modelled to cover the correct areas that the plate covers. All so good armour should fatigue people faster and be heavier.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/does-the-army-deserve-so-much-flak-1.1554491#.U2JjF14aJD8

[bigpickle 0]

Body armour is rather good at stopping bullets.]

Your wrong. Standard issue CBA will not stop a round unless it hit the plate, in most cases that does not happen, when it does people are very lucky. Get away from the movie way of thinking that people get hit in arms legs body head only, people get shot in not so unusual places especially when moving/running, armpits, insides of thighs and groin areas are very common.

Also take note that being hit by a ricochet will still kill but has a higher chance of being stopped by amour, with lesser trained armies fighting rebels etc who are not aiming as a higher trained solider would are more likely to cause ricochets by poor aim. I use this example as a general stereo type to describe that particular situation occurring (obviously soldiers within lesser trained armies still have great degree's of professionalism).

Edited May 9, 2014 by Bigpickle

[John Kozak 14]

Get away from the movie way of thinking that people get hit in arms legs body head only, people get shot in not so unusual places especially when moving/running, armpits, insides of thighs and groin areas are very common.

Ahem... Maybe it's very common now because ballistic plates stop bullets directed at body? ;) Those areas are smaller and just by pure statistics are less likely to be hit - but since CBAs eliminate the bad consequences of being shot centermass, those now become "more common".

Your logic is akin to saying we don't need measles inoculations because hardly anyone catches measles now - forgetting that it's inoculation which stopped it in first place.

[bigpickle 0]

Ahem... Maybe it's very common now because ballistic plates stop bullets directed at body? ;) Those areas are smaller and just by pure statistics are less likely to be hit - but since CBAs eliminate the bad consequences of being shot centermass, those now become "more common".

Your logic is akin to saying we don't need measles inoculations because hardly anyone catches measles now - forgetting that it's inoculation which stopped it in first place.

Don't write your own opinion into what I have written and call it my logic ;)

The CBA I wore, Kestrel & Osprey are not designed to stop bullets, they are designed to stop shrapnel, The ceramic plates inserted into Kestrel or Osprey CBA are supposed stop a round if square on..... maybe..., luckily I never had to put it to the test but it does happen sometimes, but counter to that there are enough fatalities from people getting shot through that ceramic plate especially from multiple rounds for me to feel confident in what my instructors taught me, "you don't want to put that shit to the test". Naturally curiosity gets the better of bored soldiers so at a range we once attached a plate from kestrel to a target and it spit the whole plate in two. :(

[John Kozak 14]

Don't write your own opinion into what I have written and call it my logic ;)

The CBA I wore, Kestrel & Osprey are not designed to stop bullets, they are designed to stop shrapnel, The ceramic plates inserted into Kestrel or Osprey CBA are supposed stop a round if square on..... maybe..., luckily I never had to put it to the test but it does happen sometimes, but counter to that there are enough fatalities from people getting shot through that ceramic plate especially from multiple rounds for me to feel confident in what my instructors taught me, "you don't want to put that shit to the test". Naturally curiosity gets the better of bored soldiers so at a range we once attached a plate from kestrel to a target and it spit the whole plate in two. :(

Well, since you obviously don't have a clue on what an analogy is, here's a more direct inception: armor does stop bullets, and that's the reason it's issued to soldiers. 10% chance of dying from bullet hit is still better than 90%.

And you would certainly be very surprised, but there are different classes of armor - and some types of vests do stop 7.62x39 point-blank (5 meters, GOST-R-50744-95 class 3). And for some reason even politicians do sometimes wear it. Stupid, aren't they?

But hey, sorry, I won't be bothering you with reality anymore.

Edited May 10, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[mjolnir66 48]

Don't write your own opinion into what I have written and call it my logic ;)

The CBA I wore, Kestrel & Osprey are not designed to stop bullets, they are designed to stop shrapnel, The ceramic plates inserted into Kestrel or Osprey CBA are supposed stop a round if square on..... maybe..., luckily I never had to put it to the test but it does happen sometimes, but counter to that there are enough fatalities from people getting shot through that ceramic plate especially from multiple rounds for me to feel confident in what my instructors taught me, "you don't want to put that shit to the test". Naturally curiosity gets the better of bored soldiers so at a range we once attached a plate from kestrel to a target and it spit the whole plate in two. :(

We'll just ignore the fact that the plates which have been issued with Osprey since Osprey has been issued have always been able to stop 7.62 AP, several times if hit in different spots too. It doesn't matter if its square on or not, and it is in no way luck, its purely by design. I can't think of a single example of anyone getting shot through a ceramic plate, shots that hit in unprotected areas maybe, but never through the plates.

[bigpickle 0]

OK you all know best.

[mordeaniischaos 3]

In the real world, people usually fall down when shot. Not because of the force of impact... just because that's the typical human reaction to getting shot.

TO THE DEVS: Despite the rocky start, I think we're all on board with your new body armor feature.

But it needs to be made clear that even when headshots and helmets and vests are working perfectly, the ability of soldiers to absorb 3-4 bullets to center mass has serious consequences for gameplay. ArmA 2 was a game of one-shot kills, or at most 3. When you take that away, you run into problems that can only be solved by new, highly detailed wounding and suppression mechanics, or something the likes of TPW Fall.

The idea that non-fatal bullet hits (even those stopped by armor) should have a good chance of knocking a target down is almost universally accepted. It is the only solution that is consistently suggested by the community.

I play with TPW Fall, and this implementation SOLVES the problem of high unit survivability. AI can no longer spin around and kill me after I hit them with bullets. It is realistic and immersive to have to land multiple hits in order to incapacitate a target, and TPW Fall gives players the immersive and realistic opportunity to finish the job after their first hit (as opposed to getting unfairly killed by unbalanced AI, as in vanilla).

But that's not all. The danger of getting knocked down by incoming fire makes me FEEL much less armored and survivable, and makes me think very hard before dashing across roads under fire. In vanilla, the first bullet has almost no consequences, but with TPW Fall, everything is deadly.

I've seen footage of I believe a US Soldier (from his perspective) of taking a couple shots to his armor while drawing fire on a hillside and while those multiple shots left him tucked in some rocks, he didn't really fall even from taking 7.62 rounds to his body armor. I don't think it's fair to say a soldier would always or even usually be knocked on their ass.

It should have an effect and maybe knock down less skilled units like militia. In fact, in general I wish there was more that happened when units were shot. In real life, there would be some sort of reaction, and usually it'd be to scramble for better cover. In ArmA it's a little twitch and then the AI just keeps firing with basically the same accuracy they had before being wounded.

Something that might work would be a system similar to that of Dark Souls, which has a poise system where when a certain threshold is reached, the player is staggered. Different weapon had different poise damage, so things like maces would do more damage to poise where as a dagger would do very little. Headshots with ranged attacks would pretty much 1 hit your poise down. That sort of thing. Then you could make it so sniper weapons maybe packed more of a punch and had a greater chance of causing more significant effects like knocking the wind out of a unit or even putting them on their ass. It's probably a bit much to have a system to detect the first shot but it'd be kind of cool if catching a unit surprised with a shot would give a modifier to poise damage.

In essence it would be a system to make higher caliber weapons more disruptive, without making them overpowered (ie first hit = win in the case of always just knocking units on their ass).

I also think that AI needs to be adjusted appropriately for this stuff. They need to act like they are vulnerable to these things, and seek protection whenever they can. And of course hte hit detection needs to be greatly overhauled: the entire vest is not armored, there is only so much coverage with actual effective armor.

Edited May 18, 2014 by MordeaniisChaos

[Variable 322]

I've seen footage of I believe a US Soldier (from his perspective) of taking a couple shots to his armor while drawing fire on a hillside and while those multiple shots left him tucked in some rocks, he didn't really fall even from taking 7.62 rounds to his body armor. I don't think it's fair to say a soldier would always or even usually be knocked on their ass.

It should have an effect and maybe knock down less skilled units like militia. In fact, in general I wish there was more that happened when units were shot. In real life, there would be some sort of reaction, and usually it'd be to scramble for better cover. In ArmA it's a little twitch and then the AI just keeps firing with basically the same accuracy they had before being wounded.

Something that might work would be a system similar to that of Dark Souls, which has a poise system where when a certain threshold is reached, the player is staggered. Different weapon had different poise damage, so things like maces would do more damage to poise where as a dagger would do very little. Headshots with ranged attacks would pretty much 1 hit your poise down. That sort of thing. Then you could make it so sniper weapons maybe packed more of a punch and had a greater chance of causing more significant effects like knocking the wind out of a unit or even putting them on their ass. It's probably a bit much to have a system to detect the first shot but it'd be kind of cool if catching a unit surprised with a shot would give a modifier to poise damage.

In essence it would be a system to make higher caliber weapons more disruptive, without making them overpowered (ie first hit = win in the case of always just knocking units on their ass).

I also think that AI needs to be adjusted appropriately for this stuff. They need to act like they are vulnerable to these things, and seek protection whenever they can. And of course hte hit detection needs to be greatly overhauled: the entire vest is not armored, there is only so much coverage with actual effective armor.

I suppose you mean this video.

Note that his weapon is knocked out of his hands when he absorbs the shot, and that he is mostly slids down the hill on his bottoms when getting shot which is a more stable posture than standing.

[blackpixxel 53]

It would be a huge step forward if your view would randomly rotate a bit, depending on the impact of the hit. This would make you a bit disorientated when you catch a bullet and it would really make the game more immersive, since it is currently like any other FPS. You are in a firefight, get some hits and keep on firing like nothing happend. My solution would force you to rotate your aim back to your target which would require some time.

If the AI would have to do the same it would be perfect for me.

[Tonci87 163]

It would be a huge step forward if your view would randomly rotate a bit, depending on the impact of the hit. This would make you a bit disorientated when you catch a bullet and it would really make the game more immersive, since it is currently like any other FPS. You are in a firefight, get some hits and keep on firing like nothing happend. My solution would force you to rotate your aim back to your target which would require some time.

If the AI would have to do the same it would be perfect for me.

That is actually a pretty cool idea. A hit let´s you stumble for a moment and you´r aim is hrown off. That would be cool.

[enex 11]

What I secretly wish is 3 different hit animations.To make it easy to picture take the healing animation.So you get hit you fall down, and you roll/crawl

for about 4seconds, signifying pain of bullet crashing into your plate, and kinetic force applied to your chest.After that you get up, you sway and have pain and tunnel vision.

IDEA:animation of being hit pulling your plate out of plate carrier.Of course just a mimic that, I don't think you can really pull out the crashed plate, and throw it down in arma.

[Brainbug 10]

That is actually a pretty cool idea. A hit lets you stumble for a moment and your aim is thrown off. That would be cool.

yes, that sounds good to me, too. TPW Fall is actually a bit too much for my taste, the issue I have with that is that the hit enemies resemble dead bodies too much (lying down for 10 sec with no apparent movement). If they would move more, it would be better and also more realistic.

So lets say a hit when running/walking should make them stumble, a hit when kneeling should knock them over and a hit while prone shouldn't do much obviously (the short animation used at the moment is fine here). But additionally in all cases the ability to shoot back should be denied for a few seconds (maybe 2-3 or so, not very long), but the aiming ability should be impaired also, maybe set to the same state as after very tough running (you could say as a result of an adrenaline rush). That way you could return suppressive fire reasonably quickly but you couldn't do 300 meter headshots half a second after being hit. Instead he would be forced to cease fire for a while and get to cover or retreat or whatever, until he has regained his aiming.

The "bad aiming" should also be achieved not by the up-down sway from breathing and instead more of a random muscle tremor (i.e. very small and very fast movements in all directions), best would be if you could find your heartrate in it (so as sniper you could bring down your heartrate by lying down for a while and then shoot between two heartbeats). But I guess that is another issue, to be solved in the coming years.

[CaptainObvious 95]

But additionally in all cases the ability to shoot back should be denied for a few seconds (maybe 2-3 or so, not very long)

..snip..

Instead he would be forced to cease fire for a while and get to cover or retreat or whatever, until he has regained his aiming.

What would be the logic behind that?

Yes to drastically increased sway, throwing player's view off center and maybe some screen blur, but no forced cease-fire, that sounds rage inducing.

[xendance 3]

What would be the logic behind that?

Yes to drastically increased sway, throwing player's view off center and maybe some screen blur, but no forced cease-fire, that sounds rage inducing.

There has to be some sort of visual feedback (at least for AI), maybe in a form of animation where he quickly looks/checks if he was hit and where. Or something along those lines.

[andrewza 10]

Your wrong. Standard issue CBA will not stop a round unless it hit the plate, in most cases that does not happen, when it does people are very lucky. Get away from the movie way of thinking that people get hit in arms legs body head only, people get shot in not so unusual places especially when moving/running, armpits, insides of thighs and groin areas are very common.

Also take note that being hit by a ricochet will still kill but has a higher chance of being stopped by amour, with lesser trained armies fighting rebels etc who are not aiming as a higher trained solider would are more likely to cause ricochets by poor aim. I use this example as a general stereo type to describe that particular situation occurring (obviously soldiers within lesser trained armies still have great degree's of professionalism).

How is was you said any difrent to what I said, other than the snarky remarks and you acting like you on some high hores.

That plate though small does cover a loto of vital organs. And yes being shot in the leg can kill. Being shot in the heart kills not can kill you dead. Body armour covers the chest the chest is the bigest target of a body and what most people aim for.legs, arms and head are small targets that move a lot and are not easy to hit.

All so country to popular beilve rebels are not all retards. They know how to aim and understand builet drop. Yeah they may not be has well trained has a western solder but they not retatards.

If you had read what I typed and the link I posted and compreneded it you would not have been complied to post this. Fact is body armour used by the army can stop 7.62mm nato rounds. Butit is a vest.

I would like to see some weight pentiels. Could make going in to comboat with out a vest a valid opstion.

[bonchie 39]

Started playing a SP user made campaign yesterday (Resist) and quickly remembered how much I hate the AI's ability to absorb 4-5 shots, twitch, and keep firing like nothing happened. It also makes CQC horrible because you can't take a guy down strategically, but it instead turns into a silly quick trigger fest to see how many bullets you can put into him while he turns around and shoots you, even though you hit him first.

Given that this thread hasn't been updated for a year, is this just how it's going to be? To me, it's a huge drag on gameplay. I came around a corner in one mission and hit a CSAT in the head 10 meters away. Instead of dying, he twitches and turns around. Another mission, I threw a grenade into a room on top of two guys. Both were within 5 meters of the blast. Neither died. In yet another, I'm shooting at a stressed squad 150 meters away. Each guy takes at least 4 shots to bring down as they stay crouched and twitch at each shot. Things just became an unrealistic shooting gallery. How is this acceptable to people?

And even past the gameplay negatives, it just looks silly and is a big immersion killer.

Edited May 11, 2015 by bonchie

[metralla 19]

Started playing a SP user made campaign yesterday (Resist) and quickly remembered how much I hate the AI's ability to absorb 4-5 shots, twitch, and keep firing like nothing happened. It also makes CQC horrible because you can't take a guy down strategically, but it instead turns into a silly quick trigger fest to see how many bullets you can put into him while he turns around and shoots you, even though you hit him first.

Given that this thread hasn't been updated for a year, is this just how it's going to be? To me, it's a huge drag on gameplay. I came around a corner in one mission and hit a CSAT in the head 10 meters away. Instead of dying, he twitches and turns around. Another mission, I threw a grenade into a room on top of two guys. Both were within 5 meters of the blast. Neither died. In yet another, I'm shooting at a stressed squad 150 meters away. Each guy takes at least 4 shots to bring down as they stay crouched and twitch at each shot. Things just became an unrealistic shooting gallery. How is this acceptable to people?

And even past the gameplay negatives, it just looks silly and is a big immersion killer.

You need ACE3 mod for feel the realism in your ass all the time. :popup: Meet the ACE3 Mod?

[ratszo 17]

The 'Flinch'. It needs to throw off the shooter's aim.

A forced step away from the impact's direction would be cool.

A small displacement, enough to make the shooter re-aquire the target.

[Jona33 51]

As a temporary measure, wouldn't setting the units suppression value to 1 each time they get hit be decent enough, the flinch would still look odd but at least they wouldn't be able to shoot as well (preventing the turn around-->headshot).

[John Kozak 14]

As a temporary measure, wouldn't setting the units suppression value to 1 each time they get hit be decent enough, the flinch would still look odd but at least they wouldn't be able to shoot as well (preventing the turn around-->headshot).

Genius. That actually might be a permanent solution.

EDIT: On the second thought, there's a lot to consider - for example, 9mm pistol shots vs. heavy body armor should not cause that much disorientation. Perhaps I overreacted.

Edited May 12, 2015 by DarkWanderer

[blackpixxel 53]

Supression is bullet-specific, so the reaction to getting shot could be as well.