Soldier protection (dev branch)

[YattaYatta 10]

Im scripting a mission with some special damage behavior (damage bonuses & others). While working on it, I noticed the damage handling on soliders in Arma 3 is really weird.

The problem:

Event handler for "damaged" registers multiples times for a diverse set of body parts. For instance, if you shoot at the leg, you have good chances of having the event handler telling you "head" has been hit for minor damage. Same goes for shooting any body part : a seemingly random number of other body parts will be considered hit and managed by the eventHandler. This makes it hard to determine what body part was actually hit, and to add on-hit effects (as the eventHandler is fired multiple times per hit).

The damage distribution is also weird : Sometimes "head" will take more damage than the actually hit body part.

This weird behavior has been reported on the bug report system more than 7 months ago, it has been confirmed by quite a few users, yet it has not been acknowledged or assigned. Apparently it causes trouble for players as well as mission/mod makers.

So my question are : Are the developers aware of this, and are they working on it ? Or is it this the intended behavior ? (though it would seems hard to believe that a shoot to the foot or to the hand triggering head damage is the intended behavior)

I also have a question regarding the killing blow :

How does the game decide a bullet will kill the player ? This doesnt seem as simple as "damage > X" : when testing an armor system, I could reduce damage taken by about 70% and the player damage after each hit would go like this : [...] -> 0.4 -> 0.5 -> 0.6 -> DEAD. Reducing even the damage received, it would go like this : [...] -> 0.87 -> 0.89 -> 0.91 -> DEAD. I suppose this means that death is triggered when you're damaged for more than X% of your remaining life ? Are there official any documentation on how the damage systems works ? This would be usefull for both players & mission/mod makers.

[KingoftheSandbox 10]

Nice research. On my part, id be happy with real active ragdoll when shot. Anything else might be VBS´2 s part, even if people dont like to hear it.

[maturin 12]

I wouldn't say that , because in config - they are just regular Ball , not AP

Well, realism-wise, AP rounds are going to be stopped by Level III armor anyways, unless it's something exotic and super-expensive like Tungsten penetrators for piercing APC hulls.

[roberthammer 582]

Well, realism-wise, AP rounds are going to be stopped by Level III armor anyways, unless it's something exotic and super-expensive like Tungsten penetrators for piercing APC hulls.

Only Level IV can stop AP ammo atm

[colosseum 34]

Why wasn't this system built into the game from the beginning is my question? It seems like it would be fairly simple from a "rules" standpoint to develop, and ArmA3 is already simulating a lot of other things that could be considered less essential... this is supposed to be the penultimate infantry sim, so why isn't every part of being a foot soldier exquisitely simulated? Hold off on the "lightning strike" nonsense for your multiplayer games and focus on an extremely well-done core game...

Just a gripe of mine...

[maturin 12]

Only Level IV can stop AP ammo atm

Go look for youtube videos of Level III plates stopping NATO green tip.

[scarecrow398 43]

Go look for youtube videos of Level III plates stopping NATO green tip.

M855 Green tip is NOT armor piercing, it's a steel tip to prevent the round from fragmenting on impact, to increase the range of the minimi, one of the side effects of this design is that it can penetrate 3.5mm of steel (such as the older steel pot helmets used by the soviets) at 600m.

Hell the first thing that show up in google when you search it is an article describing why it isn't designed for AP.

AP rounds are designs specifically to penetrate kevlar and ceramic armor such as M995 Black tip:

Which has a copper alloy jacket (designed to strip away on impact) and a tungsten core (Continued and pierce the armor).

[NeuroFunker 11]

i think it is much better now. Killed 3 nato players at king of the hill today, with mx, 3-4 shots each at 200m distance, much more enjoyable now, ty BI.

[lugiahua 26]

For anybody wondering how these plates perform, here's the video again:

Again, we would need animations for wound states. For example, leg wounds force you to walk slowly right now: but you still walk with that unbelievable swagger. Limping animations are necessary! Similarily, being hit in the arm should prevent you from using your primary weapon unless prone: loose the arm, switch to pistol and use it single handed.

(

actually you could operate rifle single handed with a modern tactical sling, obviously not nearly as accurate or fast as with both hands, 100 meter is about the limit.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Lugiahua

[scarecrow398 43]

actually you could operate rifle single handed with a modern tactical sling, obviously not nearly as accurate or fast as with both hands, 100 meter is about the limit.

Or without...

Rifles aren't that heavy... though bullpup rifles like the Steyr AUG or the FAMAS would be easier as the center of gravity is above your hand.

[Kirill 1]

No matter about this detal. We say about global model

[Ckrauslo 12]

We appreciate all the feedback, but any feature must be designed carefully, because ArmA is:

A) a game and thus should be fun

B) ArmA and should be as authentic as possible

These two conditions could form the following outcomes:

A) is fun and is authentic - which is an ideal state

B) is fun but is not completely authentic - this is an acceptable state, as fun has priority over authenticity

C) is not fun but is authentic - which is an unacceptable state

D) is not fun nor authentic - which is epic fail

This is one of the reasons why we have a "Task force balance" - to find the point where the fun and authenticity are in an ideal correlation.

So, please, stay patient, this feature is still under development.

You know could be done that the level of authenticity would increase with increased difficulty, but yet, shooting someone in the leg and the guy still be able to run, and don't start to bleed and die soon is not authentic, shooting someone in the face and they still shoot you back is not authentic, and i belive that you guys are currently in some situations in the D) because is not authentic and realistic in this point and we can't kill the enemies most of the times, and we die a lot cause of it, and we get pissed

---------- Post added at 14:33 ---------- Previous post was at 14:27 ----------

Let's be real here, those who are unhappy with how 5.56 handles (in stable branch) against combatants wearing plate carrier body armor are looking more for fun than authenticity. Standard steel and/or ceramic plates can take several (5-7) 5.56mm shots before penetration will occur. That is authenticity. Now, how can you make it fun AND somewhat authentic? Make it so it take 3 shots to take somewhat out. This of course means that advanced plate carrier armor technology has never actually advanced in this "futuristic world" that is Arma 3 and that really cuts into things.

The problem is not hitting the armor plate carrier 6 or 7 times ( what it takes for a 5.56 at 100 yards to penetrate it) the problem is hitting them in the head, or in the legs or arm, and or neck or face and they're still combat effective, if you get shot in you're arm you will most likely drop you're gun, being shot in the let you will fall, and will not be able to walk properly, or not walk at all, and most likely bleed out in matter of minutes, so i believe you're being a little uninformed

---------- Post added at 14:37 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------

I'll just tell that to my mate who took a 7.62R (not NATO, but just as powerful) round to his back plate from 10m away then shall I? Because I seem to remember him getting back up and fighting back.

Man, you take one shot thats fine, you most likely only suffer a broken or lust bone, but you get out of air, and will be stunned for a moment

---------- Post added at 14:43 ---------- Previous post was at 14:37 ----------

Man soon as I saw that post I knew you'd be on it like a blood hound.

You should probably actually play COD and battlefield because arma 3 is nothing like them nor attempting to achieve anything like them. You actually die faster in those games (compared to arma 3) so I don't know what the hell you're on about. Arma has always had barebones realism systems where things behave kinda as they should but are not simulated properly (Hitpoints for vehicles is an incredibly obvious one), you seem to have this warped perception where arma 2 and ace were this one entity, when in reality they were two completely different games in the end.

How are they not? If you don't like the armour system, create your own using a handledamage event handler.

It probably did, look at the vanilla Russian faction vs. USMC, they have pretty much the 'same' stuff with variations in between. There were more factions in the game than the arrowhead ones you know? I think he's referring to balancing realism/authenticity vs. fun and yeah that existed in arma 2 aswell which is why you have such simple radar systems and an 'engine on' action instead of a lengthy startup sequence and all sorts of other stuff that realism lovers foam at the mouth for.

Yeah but there is nothing realistic in the current damage,from BIS, and is not the fans obligation to create their own, is of the company, since we payed for the product, and is in the consumer legislation, that defend us

[Tonci87 163]

Take notice!

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?152866-General-Discussion-(dev-branch)&p=2605868&viewfull=1#post2605868

[Ckrauslo 12]

I don't know about others, but I think this latest tweak did it for headshots. Too me they are pretty balanced. Basically rifle will kill with one direct hit. At close range, a 556 glancing hit will not kill. 6.5 glancing hits will not kill at longer ranges in one shot

Yeah thats not very much realistic, since if i shoot someone with a 6.5 at 1000 yards in the head the person will die

[bonchie 39]

The issue is not armor. It's that wounding doesn't happen.

It's not fun to have to shoot a guy center mass 3 times for him to be affected (i.e. die) while he's still unloading on you.

I can live with taking 3 shots to kill or even more if extremities are hit, but a proper wounding system has to be implemented. Arm hits should heavily affect their accuracy, leg hits should affect mobility. Most of all, any kind of hit should lead to panic of some sort, where the AI doesn't just keep shooting like nothing happens but attempts to go for cover.

The armor system itself is fine now. Wounding is what will fix 99% of complaints.

[Kirill 1]

There are terminators in the latest update. You can not kill him in any part of the body. He is "transparent." Saw it twice (Iranian infantry).

[lugiahua 26]

There are terminators in the latest update. You can not kill him in any part of the body. He is "transparent." Saw it twice (Iranian infantry).

I met one too.

in one of the side mission, I came up an AAF convoy. One of the soldiers took maybe 20 rounds from my M14 before going down. Most bullets just pass through him without causing damage at all.

---------- Post added at 23:17 ---------- Previous post was at 23:15 ----------

Or without...

Rifles aren't that heavy... though bullpup rifles like the Steyr AUG or the FAMAS would be easier as the center of gravity is above your hand.

It makes a lot easier reloading single handed with a sling, without one you have to pin the rifle either between your legs or a wall to reload.

[Ckrauslo 12]

And to the people saying in 21 years armor will be better, so if you use the same logic you guys are using, so will the ammo, because it's linked to each other, when they have better armor they will develop more powerfull guns to be better against that armor so what you guys say don't make any sense

[maturin 12]

And to the people saying in 21 years armor will be better, so if you use the same logic you guys are using, so will the ammo, because it's linked to each other, when they have better armor they will develop more powerfull guns to be better against that armor so what you guys say don't make any sense

Not necessarily.

Body armor was pretty worthless against full power rifle rounds until late in the 20th century. And before that, you have to go back to the middle ages to find armor that was immune to projectiles.

[Bouben 3]

There are terminators in the latest update. You can not kill him in any part of the body. He is "transparent." Saw it twice (Iranian infantry).

Yes there is a bug with hit detection. Bullets just does not collide with bodies.

[LowFlyZone 10]

I concur, was messing around as a sniper and had quite a few odd hit detection problems, where I noticed very few before the new patch, I suddenly had many shots not even registering. Also, I think the damage system has been improved because to me I can kill enemies with fewer shots on average, head shots finally seem to work (even with silencers) so it's a major plus for me.

BUT, now with the BluFor anti-material sniper rifle (standard Nato sniper) I often could not kill AAF guys with a single solid hit at ~500m, to the legs, arms and even body's (from behind, side or front)... I swear I would always be able to kill them with a single shot before the patch, except maybe sometimes if I hit them in the arm or leg... It's a damn powerfull sniper rifle that can blow the tyre off a Strider @ 800m but not penertrate the body armor of a little AAF soldier?

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah thats not very much realistic, since if i shoot someone with a 6.5 at 1000 yards in the head the person will die

Until they can implemnt proper fire gemotry for plates and helmets, and proper hit reactions, realism is not possible. Right now (unfortunately) we are going to have to settle for "balanced and enjoyable gameplay". I think that the current headshots are pretty well balanced and enjoyable.

Not necessarily.

Body armor was pretty worthless against full power rifle rounds until late in the 20th century. And before that, you have to go back to the middle ages to find armor that was immune to projectiles.

Yeah I definitely wouldn't sat they are "linked".

I am by no means knowledgeable on the subject but I get the feeling that armour has more room to improve than bullets, in the near future. I mean hell you could always just slap on another plate. Where as bullets have been optimized for years and years and I don't believe that there is much more that can be done to improve them. But really I have nothing to back this up its just the impression I got. Anyone have more knowledgeable predictions?

[Ckrauslo 12]

Not necessarily.

Body armor was pretty worthless against full power rifle rounds until late in the 20th century. And before that, you have to go back to the middle ages to find armor that was immune to projectiles.

You are comparing different times and with no proper technology, now we have technology, and when they create something to protect you more, someone goes and create something to bypass that protection, this is how it goes,

---------- Post added at 05:20 ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 ----------

Until they can implemnt proper fire gemotry for plates and helmets, and proper hit reactions, realism is not possible. Right now (unfortunately) we are going to have to settle for "balanced and enjoyable gameplay". I think that the current headshots are pretty well balanced and enjoyable.

Yeah I definitely wouldn't sat they are "linked".

I am by no means knowledgeable on the subject but I get the feeling that armour has more room to improve than bullets, in the near future. I mean hell you could always just slap on another plate. Where as bullets have been optimized for years and years and I don't believe that there is much more that can be done to improve them. But really I have nothing to back this up its just the impression I got. Anyone have more knowledgeable predictions?

There is always room to implement bullets, and make them more powerfull, they always create new loads, and new calibers, gun makers study this all the time

Edited January 25, 2014 by Ckrauslo

[rye1 21]

And to the people saying in 21 years armor will be better, so if you use the same logic you guys are using, so will the ammo, because it's linked to each other, when they have better armor they will develop more powerfull guns to be better against that armor so what you guys say don't make any sense

Robocop armor please. :(

[Ckrauslo 12]

Robocop armor please. :(

I didn't understand are you being ironic? or you actually wants an armor like robocop?