Soldier protection (dev branch)

[NeuroFunker 11]

i think, it is OK to have bullet protection work like that, esp. if you remember, game takes place in 2035, for twenty and half years, there could be developed new materials, more lightweight but stronger then current, so there is no big magic behind it. Only it was frustrating for me, when at one of PvP matches, i was shooting a guy with 5,56mm inside the building, like 1-2m away, shot almost whole mag in to his chest (maybe missed few bullets) but he stayed alive and even killed me.

One question i have, it takes 3 hits in to legs, to kill a soldier in the game from 5.56 to 7.62mm if i'm not wrong. I have no idea how real is that, but i'm sure, taking a hit from 7,62mm bullet in to a leg, should make you walk slow, being injured in to both legs, should make you immobile at all. But in the game bots keep running after being hit in to the legs. Sometimes i was walking slowly after being hit, but happens really rare.

---------- Post added at 02:42 ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 ----------

If you have downloaded Bcombat 0.14 this will be exciting for you I got this code to work for head shots.....config.sqf:

Line 221: bcombat_damage_factor = 2.0; // Damage multiplier to correct unrealistic body armor values

lib/common.sqf:

Line 391: _body_part_damage = _body_part_damage * bcombat_damage_factor;

I have great news I got this to work some what....I'm now getting instant kill with head shots....I changed 2.0 to 0.60 ....Line 221: bcombat_damage_factor = 0.60; // Damage multiplier to correct unrealistic body armor values....but with body shots still takes 3 shots kinda strange.

i think this goes to bCombat thread mate.

[bravo409 13]

Yeah I put this in here so that you guys can give bcombat a try and use this code because I know how difficult it is to shot ai and they dont go down.

If you have downloaded Bcombat 0.14 this will be exciting for you I got this code to work for head shots.....config.sqf:

Line 221: bcombat_damage_factor = 2.0; // Damage multiplier to correct unrealistic body armor values

lib/common.sqf:

Line 391: _body_part_damage = _body_part_damage * bcombat_damage_factor;

[progamer 14]

i think, it is OK to have bullet protection work like that, esp. if you remember, game takes place in 2035, for twenty and half years, there could be developed new materials, more lightweight but stronger then current, so there is no big magic behind it. Only it was frustrating for me, when at one of PvP matches, i was shooting a guy with 5,56mm inside the building, like 1-2m away, shot almost whole mag in to his chest (maybe missed few bullets) but he stayed alive and even killed me.

One question i have, it takes 3 hits in to legs, to kill a soldier in the game from 5.56 to 7.62mm if i'm not wrong. I have no idea how real is that, but i'm sure, taking a hit from 7,62mm bullet in to a leg, should make you walk slow, being injured in to both legs, should make you immobile at all. But in the game bots keep running after being hit in to the legs. Sometimes i was walking slowly after being hit, but happens really rare.

It does but the vehicles and equipment used is not futuristic. The story line indicates they lacked funds to do things which could include new technology. So please, non of the it's the future so it should act like they made a new version that looked exactly the same as existing technology and made it better.

---------- Post added at 05:23 ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 ----------

By giving Opfor proper body Armor like NATO, they won't feel like super soldiers with a bullet resistant suit as much, because bullets can affect them realistically and can kill them easier. Giving the player a better experience and making the game more realistic.

Edited January 7, 2014 by ProGamer

[13islucky 10]

I recently switched to stable for a few days, and I must say I was not very happy. I have, however, found an interesting tactic to deal with highly armoured targets: the sweep the leg drill.

[rye1 21]

Rofl!

Though in actuality (I don't know if that video was taking the piss... Poe's law!) the 'zipper drill' is advocated on armored or non-responsive (after being shot) targets - that is to say no pelvic/groin armor is apparent. Shoot into the pelvis until they drop. It's actually a very reasonable theory - and backed by numerous wound ballistic studies. If in doubt - shoot the dick.

[CaptainObvious 95]

I switched to stable build recently too, I may need to do additional comparison but boy it feels a lot harder to drop a target in stable.

Might be the overall lack of gamehours during the christmas too.

If in doubt - shoot the dick.

That is going into my signature :D

[scarecrow398 43]

If in doubt - shoot the dick.

Aww, that's not cool man...

[Bouben 3]

I now tested and two 45 ACP bullets from a pistol in a foot (!) killing a soldier while machinegun has to fire three bullets to a foot. Foot could be torn apart in real and still not immediately killing a soldier.

Needs more fixing.

[AlexVestin 24]

@Solzenicyn and devs

It would be easier to provide feedback on this feature if we knew what is within your team's goals and capabilities.

• Are you guys limited to using the current "damage reduction" system or is there a possibility for a more realistic penetration/deflection system.
  
• Are you guys planning/able to define where armour covers better (ie. helmet covers just the top of the head rather than the whole face).
  
• Is it within your scope to add more hit effects (ragdolling, animations, sway).
  

I think it is necessary for us to get this info because depending on your answers our feedback will change.

Like already mentioned, the in-game ability of a plate to prevent fatal injuries are not unrealistic -

thus keeping the target alive longer. But there are other negatives to such a hit currently no in-game. And if these are not going to be modeled it may be better to nerf armour more for gameplay's sake...

We need to know how close to complete you guys consider the current system - are you guys just tweaking numbers or still adjusting and adding mechanics - because our feedback will vary depending.

What do you want our feedback to be about?

Thanks.

Hi guys,

as you may already noticed, soldier protection feature is currently undergoing certain changes dedicated to development branch only to improve the significance of gear you're actually wearing. We're trying hard to avoid any odd or unrealistic behavior and we are continually fixing those unpleasant issues that you've stumbled upon and kindly reported to us. Our goal is to bring diversity in types, meaningful in use and certainly the most realistic in behavior of the advanced soldier protection gear, expected to be military standard in the near future of our game setting. Hopefully, you will enjoy the upcoming improvements as much as we do and of course, be welcomed to share your opinions, observations and feelings upon the subject to help us in this effort.

Thank you.

I've got a suggestion. Probably still quite simple, but I think it could give some good results?

Here's some facts that are true:

• Bullet velocity does decrease over distance traveled in air.
  
• Bullets lose velocity after penetrating objects.
  
• Character damage is affected by the type of bullet and its velocity.
  

My suggestion would be to have each model of a vest have its own fire-geometry that represents ballistic protection.

In theory, it'd work as on vehicles. You'd give the vest, as an example, a rectangled object in its fire-geometry to represent a ballistically protected area. Just like a vehicle can lose hitpoints on its engine, a vest can lose hitpoints on its proteced areas and become less efficient/non-efficient on that specific area.

There must be different kinds of ballistic protection.

The ballistically protected areas should be made from different materials with different values.

• Density value. Density decides how much velocity a bullet might lose on hit.
  Depending on bullet type.
  example: armor-penetrating rounds wont lose as much velocity compared to a normal round.
  

• Stopping value. Stopping decides how high the bullets velocity must be to penetrate fully.
  Depending on bullet velocity after being reduced by density.
  example: If bullet velocity still is high enough after reduced velocity, it will penetrate doing damage accordingly to its type and after-penetration velocity.
  

• Material value. Material decides how much damage being inflicted to the ballistic protection.
  Depending on bullet/schrapnel velocity. Damage type?
  example: A low value could represent a ceramic plate that will degrade quickly with each hit compared to a steel plate. Damaging gear will reduce density and stopping values.
  

• Shock value. How much damage inflicted to the person when ballistic protection is hit.
  Depending on bullets velocity after being reduced by density.
  example: If no penetrating shot, the force absorbed will still damage the wearer of the protective gear to some extent.
  

Edited January 11, 2014 by AlexVestin

[heruon 1]

My suggestion would be to have each model of a vest have its own fire-geometry that represents ballistic protection.

Exactly what I've been thinking. Just use the normal penetration model with specific materials for body armour.

[Gutsnav 13]

I've got a suggestion. Probably still quite simple, but I think it could give some good results?

Here's some facts that are true:

• Bullet velocity does decrease over distance traveled in air.
  
• Bullets lose velocity after penetrating objects.
  
• Character damage is affected by the type of bullet and its velocity.
  

My suggestion would be to have each model of a vest have its own fire-geometry that represents ballistic protection.

In theory, it'd work as on vehicles. You'd give the vest, as an example, a rectangled object in its fire-geometry to represent a ballistically protected area. Just like a vehicle can lose hitpoints on its engine, a vest can lose hitpoints on its proteced areas and become less efficient/non-efficient on that specific area.

There must be different kinds of ballistic protection.

The ballistically protected areas should be made from different materials with different values.

• Density value. Density decides how much velocity a bullet might lose on hit.
  Depending on bullet type.
  example: armor-penetrating rounds wont lose as much velocity compared to a normal round.
  

• Stopping value. Stopping decides how high the bullets velocity must be to penetrate fully.
  Depending on bullet velocity after being reduced by density.
  example: If bullet velocity still is high enough after reduced velocity, it will penetrate doing damage accordingly to its type and after-penetration velocity.
  

• Material value. Material decides how much damage being inflicted to the ballistic protection.
  Depending on bullet/schrapnel velocity. Damage type?
  example: A low value could represent a ceramic plate that will degrade quickly with each hit compared to a steel plate. Damaging gear will reduce density and stopping values.
  

• Shock value. How much damage inflicted to the person when ballistic protection is hit.
  Depending on bullets velocity after being reduced by density.
  example: If no penetrating shot, the force absorbed will still damage the wearer of the protective gear to some extent.
  

This. All the way. I am thinking maybe for the hitbox thing you could have like a six - pack of armor plates with hitboxes on the chest and back (maybe an 8-pack if those are too big, but that might cause lag). This way if you hit a guy with 3 or 4 5.56 rounds in the same exact spot his armor gets screwed up and bullets pass through. My two cents

[Ckrauslo 12]

Guys one thing to be said you all complain about shooting 3-5 times with a rifle in the chest, but i gotta tell you, if you are using an armor plate on a kevlar plate carrier ( pretty much all models of plate carriers around) if you don't hit precisely the same area or find a way to don't hit the armored plate you pretty much will need a lot of rounds to kill some one.

Now to the unrealistic fact of this, i was testing the damage and a unit with a helmet i would understand needing 2 or 3 rounds sometimes, remembering sometimes for a pistol to kill, majority of the times depending on the caliber and distance, the helmet will not be able to stop the bullet and you're pretty much dead, but what got me thinking was when i was in front of a unit with helmet and shot him in the face, "where there is no protection so should be instant dead even with a 6.35mm, shooting in the T zone" and it took me 4 rounds of a 45 caliber, 6 rounds with 9mm, 2 rounds with 5.56 and 2 rounds with the 6.5

[AlexVestin 24]

I'd be happy to have to shoot 50+ rounds to get to someone.

As long as it's my fault because of me aiming on the wrong spots.

Right now the whole person is the wrong spot to aim for when they got body armor.

[-Coulum- 35]

I'd be happy to have to shoot 50+ rounds to get to someone.

As long as it's my fault because of me aiming on the wrong spots.

Right now the whole person is the wrong spot to aim for when they got body armor.

Yeah pretty much this. It also sucks when you know that the no matter how lucky the shot coming towards you is, it cannot possibly kill you because you have armour that protects every part of you.

Guys one thing to be said you all complain about shooting 3-5 times with a rifle in the chest, but i gotta tell you, if you are using an armor plate on a kevlar plate carrier ( pretty much all models of plate carriers around) if you don't hit precisely the same area or find a way to don't hit the armored plate you pretty much will need a lot of rounds to kill some one.

I doubt there are many that deny that armour is capable of stopping multiple rounds. The problem is its coverage and the player/ai reaction to getting hit. Of course the penetration system could be made more realistic than the current "damage reduction" happening now. But really this is low priority in my opinion. First proper coverage and reactions must be made.

I like your idea AlexVestin regarding penetration and damage system. It would definitely serve well enough. But I think that the most ideal way of handling armour would be to have armour plates be a physical in-game object that handles penetration, deflection etc, just like all the other objects in game.

already seems very well done. But like I said really it doesn't much matter how penetration is handled if the coverage and reactions aren't made proper. BI has unfortunately gone quiet but I am hoping it is because they are working hard at fixing both of these. I don't think it is too impossible:

Currently guns accurately block bullets from hitting the character based on their size and shape. They also produce the correct effects upon being hit and actually have a threshold of damage they can take before they cease to provide protection. Now we just need plates and helmets that act in the same way. Combine that with the penetration system already in game and you have fairly realistic armour effectiveness and coverage. It must be more complex than that obviously but I am confused as to why BI went down the road of "damage reductions to entire hitzones", rather than actually making armour that is able to stop, deflect and be penetrated. Because judging by the new penetration system and seeing what is already possible with guns, I wouldn't think it is too impossible to make some decent armour simulation.

[AlexVestin 24]

I like your idea AlexVestin regarding penetration and damage system. It would definitely serve well enough. But I think that the most ideal way of handling armour would be to have armour plates be a physical in-game object that handles penetration, deflection etc, just like all the other objects in game.

already seems very well done.

If I am not mistaken, the bullets in that video are colliding (and penetrating) with the wooden walls fire-geometry. Just adding support for fire-geometry to vests and headgear like i suggested probably would result in something similar to what is seen in that video :)

I have seen vehicles and such behaving differently when hit by bullets compared to static objects. I'm not sure if vehicles actually can make a bullet ricochet. From the last time I tested, the M-ATV looked like it was absorbing every bullet. Unsure if they actually just penetrated its armor, but I'm fairly sure they did not.

[DrBo42 10]

I've got a suggestion. Probably still quite simple, but I think it could give some good results?

Here's some facts that are true:

• Bullet velocity does decrease over distance traveled in air.
  
• Bullets lose velocity after penetrating objects.
  
• Character damage is affected by the type of bullet and its velocity.
  

My suggestion would be to have each model of a vest have its own fire-geometry that represents ballistic protection.

In theory, it'd work as on vehicles. You'd give the vest, as an example, a rectangled object in its fire-geometry to represent a ballistically protected area. Just like a vehicle can lose hitpoints on its engine, a vest can lose hitpoints on its proteced areas and become less efficient/non-efficient on that specific area.

There must be different kinds of ballistic protection.

The ballistically protected areas should be made from different materials with different values.

• Density value. Density decides how much velocity a bullet might lose on hit.
  Depending on bullet type.
  example: armor-penetrating rounds wont lose as much velocity compared to a normal round.
  

• Stopping value. Stopping decides how high the bullets velocity must be to penetrate fully.
  Depending on bullet velocity after being reduced by density.
  example: If bullet velocity still is high enough after reduced velocity, it will penetrate doing damage accordingly to its type and after-penetration velocity.
  

• Material value. Material decides how much damage being inflicted to the ballistic protection.
  Depending on bullet/schrapnel velocity. Damage type?
  example: A low value could represent a ceramic plate that will degrade quickly with each hit compared to a steel plate. Damaging gear will reduce density and stopping values.
  

• Shock value. How much damage inflicted to the person when ballistic protection is hit.
  Depending on bullets velocity after being reduced by density.
  example: If no penetrating shot, the force absorbed will still damage the wearer of the protective gear to some extent.
  

This is a great suggestion for an overhaul. Unfortunately I don't see this happening.

[oukej 2910]

My suggestion would be to have each model of a vest have its own fire-geometry that represents ballistic protection.

Even though we currently have materials and their penetration modeled in a detailed way and this may seem like an off-hand ideal solution without much additional work, we've bumped into some unexpected, currently blocking, issues with it earlier.

Btw, meanwhile Solzenicyn has prepared some tweaks that should be already in dev branch.

Please, let us know what you think, how do you enjoy the game now and what could - in the given bounds - make it better ;)

[-Coulum- 35]

Mmmm I don't like the sound of:

Tweaked: Increased damage of headshots from small caliber weapons

Sounds like they are trying and fix things "the easy way", by tweaking values and such, rather than actually fixing the isssue (that the helmet covers the entire head not just the top). Maybe I am just being pessimistic though.

EDIT:

Oh yay a dev in this thread.

Please, let us know what you think, how do you enjoy the game now and what could - in the given bounds - make it better

I know it is probably hard to know for sure, but what do you guys define as "in the given bounds"?

Even though we currently have materials and their penetration modeled in a detailed way and this may seem like an off-hand ideal solution without much additional work, we've bumped into some unexpected, currently blocking, issues with it earlier.

Ah thats to bad to hear. But I am glad that you guys were looking into it.

Edited January 13, 2014 by -Coulum-

[oukej 2910]

(that the helmet covers the entire head not just the top).

ˇ

I know it is probably hard to know for sure, but what do you guys define as "in the given bounds"?

:(

Well, not to let you down - the fight is far from over.

[Brain 12]

ˇ

:(

Well, not to let you down - the fight is far from over.

Seeing your reaction, the logic wish of having helmets just cover the part they are supposed to cover is not possible?

[supercereal4 29]

I think that one of the big immersion breakers in body armor is the CSAT Load Bearing Vests, which are similar to the fighter chest rig, visually. The fighter chest rig offers no protection (which is accurate to the model; the chest is exposed) The LBVs are probably made out of nylon, and leave the chest exposed, and have nowhere to insert armored protective plates, however they have protective properties much like blufor's plate carriers. Of course, we can't just make the LBVs have 0 protective value for balancing reasons, but maybe they should be remodeled so they are more believable sources of personal protection, because right now those models don't look like they'd protect you from bullets at all.

[-Coulum- 35]

:(

Well, not to let you down - the fight is far from over.

:cryy:

Okay. If proper coverage of armour is not quite within grasp now, what about hit reactions. It doesn't even have to be complex. Something as simple as:

• 1 in 2 chance of ragdolling when hit in the torso
  
• 1 in 2 chance of ragdolling when hit in the legs
  
• 1 in 4 chance of ragdolling when hit in the arms
  
• automatic ragdolling when hit the in the head
  
• Recovery time depends on your overall damage recieved - say: (random value between 0 and damage received)*(10)
  
• 
  

Of course it would be even better if chance of ragdolling took into account the severity of the hit but any type of ragdolling effect when shot would make armour less "halo trooper's invincible forcefield" and more like a steel plate that might save you if you didn't fuck up too bad.

I think that one of the big immersion breakers in body armor is the CSAT Load Bearing Vests, which are similar to the fighter chest rig, visually. The fighter chest rig offers no protection (which is accurate to the model; the chest is exposed) The LBVs are probably made out of nylon, and leave the chest exposed, and have nowhere to insert armored protective plates, however they have protective properties much like blufor's plate carriers. Of course, we can't just make the LBVs have 0 protective value for balancing reasons, but maybe they should be remodeled so they are more believable sources of personal protection, because right now those models don't look like they'd protect you from bullets at all.

The LBV seem to protect about half as much as plate carriers. But then the opfor uniform itself has some protective properties (unlike blufor uniform). So the combination of the LBV and uniform make it on par with the blufor plate carriers. Might not be uber realistic but it does add some variety and I am okay with it.

[Ckrauslo 12]

Yeah pretty much this. It also sucks when you know that the no matter how lucky the shot coming towards you is, it cannot possibly kill you because you have armour that protects every part of you.

I doubt there are many that deny that armour is capable of stopping multiple rounds. The problem is its coverage and the player/ai reaction to getting hit. Of course the penetration system could be made more realistic than the current "damage reduction" happening now. But really this is low priority in my opinion. First proper coverage and reactions must be made.

I like your idea AlexVestin regarding penetration and damage system. It would definitely serve well enough. But I think that the most ideal way of handling armour would be to have armour plates be a physical in-game object that handles penetration, deflection etc, just like all the other objects in game.

already seems very well done. But like I said really it doesn't much matter how penetration is handled if the coverage and reactions aren't made proper. BI has unfortunately gone quiet but I am hoping it is because they are working hard at fixing both of these. I don't think it is too impossible:

Currently guns accurately block bullets from hitting the character based on their size and shape. They also produce the correct effects upon being hit and actually have a threshold of damage they can take before they cease to provide protection. Now we just need plates and helmets that act in the same way. Combine that with the penetration system already in game and you have fairly realistic armour effectiveness and coverage. It must be more complex than that obviously but I am confused as to why BI went down the road of "damage reductions to entire hitzones", rather than actually making armour that is able to stop, deflect and be penetrated. Because judging by the new penetration system and seeing what is already possible with guns, I wouldn't think it is too impossible to make some decent armour simulation.

A few guys a few posts earlier was saying that is unrealistic that an armor saves you from more than 2 rounds

[L3TUC3 32]

ˇ

:(

Well, not to let you down - the fight is far from over.

Pretty cryptic. What are the bounds?

Clinical tests on targets? To see if X bullets to Y armor kill seems likely only?

It's pretty apparent that the new body armor system only exemplifies problems with itself and other mechanics. We should just ignore that? That's not really feedback. I still have no idea what we're looking at nor what for. It pretty much boils down to .kju's question at the start. What is BIS aim, what has BIS changed and what do you expect from it (and us)?

[Kirill 1]

Please, let us know what you think, how do you enjoy the game now and what could - in the given bounds - make it better ;)

How are you thinking about? Would you like to play it yourself?)