Soldier protection (dev branch)

[maturin 12]

Edit: nvm

Edited December 27, 2013 by maturin

[rye1 21]

I am not aware of any body armor able to protect from something even close to an antimaterial rifle , a center of mass hit by these rifles means instant death and decapitation for the target. I would also like to note that the pass through/clean of a bullet is a myth , even if the bullet doesn't hit any vitals the exit wound is much much bigger that the entry wound and results in much more damage and blood loss .

In Wound Ballistic texts I have read they are called through-and-throughs. How are they a myth exactly? No one here is denying entry and exit wounds from the said round so what are you trying to say?

Yeah, there's no body armour in the world that can stop a round from an anti material rifle. I'm fairly certain no one's even ever been bothered to try making one. If anyone, regardless of body armour gets hit in the torso by one, they're dead. If they're hit in the arms or legs, then that is severed.

I researched a lot into .50 caliber wounding mechanisms when logging tickets for ACE2 about their long-range damage values, even though we now know the engine is flawed from the start when it comes to such. Ballistic gel examples only give us a width variable and proportion based on human factors, but not the human body in reality, and in an upright position with forms of protection. In some studies, and videos or pictures, widely publicized you will note that these rounds have a minimum penetration limit of around eight inches before they do anything incredibly damaging inside the body unless they hit a vital organ, in which yes the cavity does tend to turn to mush.

It's often hard to get a hold of well researched, well put together and funded data because they tend to be 'in-house' only restricted or classified for certain eyes only but I have found some credible pieces over my time. There are quite a few major articles in regards to humanitarian law, law and war, discussing the impact of such rounds in the human body with their own independent tests. Well worth looking into.

Certain rounds do better after penetrating an object too (going against commonly found misconceptions), which is because it reaches it optimal limits for yawing, tumbling and so forth, the .50BMG is one of those rounds. It's made for penetrating then killing after all and many sub-components do exactly that, for example the MK211 RAUFOSS.

I was under the impression that the myth was that anti materials rifles were always one kill in real life.

You're correct. For example an Irish Defence Forces soldier survived a .50 hit during the Lebanese war. He was hit in the leg. During the Iraq war people have been hit with the .50, including taking off half a hand. You're still combat effective with the other hand. You're still alive. It all depends where you are hit and what the round does, which is very hard to simulate in ArmA with such systems currently in place. I'm fine with them being one hit kills for center mass and vital structures.

The whole 'cut people in half' thing was from numerous small books, for example the Ultimate Sniper. There have been some arguments against it, but there is no doubt rounds in the right places can do such it's just incredibly under-documented like most things in a fast moving war. Even 7.62 (AP as well as ball) can do this in certain areas like the elbow where you can easily sever the anatomy that holds it together in the first place be it a partial or complete amputation.

I wouldn't like to see that in game though, neither would I like to see dismemberment or amputations. And anything that messes with damage values has a ripple effect on the way the game is played, including medical aspects. Overall I don't think these arguments matter unless someone forms them around the God damn game!

[progamer 14]

I wouldn't like to see that in game though, neither would I like to see dismemberment or amputations. And anything that messes with damage values has a ripple effect on the way the game is played, including medical aspects. Overall I don't think these arguments matter unless someone forms them around the God damn game!

We need a proper complex and realistic medical system to design the body armor around in the first place. It's like building a skyscraper without the bottom floors or supports. And for those who want to play like a super soldier they could disable the advanced medical system and advanced body armor system.

For modding we need proper support for dismemberment and amputations.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Yeah, there's no body armour in the world that can stop a round from an anti material rifle. I'm fairly certain no one's even ever been bothered to try making one.

The British Army had a body armour vest in Northern Ireland that was made specifically to stop .50 BMG rounds from Barret M82 and M90 rifles that had been obtained by the IRA, from the US.

The body armour worked as intended and did save lives as a result. However the plates weighed a fucking ton, so it was only really issued to blokes manning sangers and other static emplacements.

[scrim 1]

For some reason I doubt that the last military involved in Iraq and Afghanistan to introduce proper trauma plates, twenty years earlier had trauma plates capable of A, withstanding the impact of a .50 cal round from the relatively short ranges that are the norm of urban combat, and B, capable of reducing the shock enough not to kill the soldier due to blunt trauma and massive internal bleeding.

[tmortensen 10]

You should understand realistic does not mean BF4 hardcore mode. Things aren't always easy to kill, those easy to kill locations are usually protected in the real world.

If you think anti material rifles are one hit kill in real life you are crazy. Some body armor types can protect from them. They also pass through targets without spreading out inside the body like other bullets.

Any changes should be made from real world knowledge and data. Not someone guessing.

If you read my post properly you will understand that I have made a mission with weapons of 5.56 7.62 caliber, fighting against rebels with harnesses, not rigs or plate carriers.

When we talk of anti-material its bye-bye limb/part of body regardless of the bullet type, the velocity will shear the limb off.

And again going back, I am speaking of armour values of ai units wearing the clothes on their back nothing more.

take a .50 cal to the chest and tell me your bones are still intact.

My main concern is that in its current state it is making playing with weapons of choice difficult as the AI seem to have godmode enabled/ are fueled on Columbian marching powder and feel no pain.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

For some reason I doubt that the last military involved in Iraq and Afghanistan to introduce proper trauma plates, twenty years earlier had trauma plates capable of A, withstanding the impact of a .50 cal round from the relatively short ranges that are the norm of urban combat, and B, capable of reducing the shock enough not to kill the soldier due to blunt trauma and massive internal bleeding.

There's a bunch of discussion on the "Carriage, Ballistic, Protection, 12.7mm, DPM, IRR" vest, including first-hand accounts of wearing it during tours of NI, here

It was a plate carrier worn over the top of INIBA or CBA vests, which were the standard ballistic vests issued before Osprey (vests with a small trauma plate and ballistic nylon frag filler).

Edited December 28, 2013 by da12thMonkey

[maturin 12]

When we talk of anti-material its bye-bye limb/part of body regardless of the bullet type, the velocity will shear the limb off.

(citation needed)

The velocity will sheer the limb off? That is such a cartoon understanding of physics.

take a .50 cal to the chest and tell me your bones are still intact.

Well, uh, if the bullet doesn't hit any bones, your bones will be fine. It's just going to go straight through and make a big hole that will probably kill you.

[rye1 21]

For some reason I doubt that the last military involved in Iraq and Afghanistan to introduce proper trauma plates, twenty years earlier had trauma plates capable of A, withstanding the impact of a .50 cal round from the relatively short ranges that are the norm of urban combat, and B, capable of reducing the shock enough not to kill the soldier due to blunt trauma and massive internal bleeding.

Are you talking about medical shock here? Because that's not how it works.

[maturin 12]

...and the fetishistic magical thinking continues.

I just found an estimate of the kinetic energy from hitting iron with a blacksmith's hammer. Getting hit with that hammer would be painful, sure, but not the most lethal thing in the world. Kinetic energy is about 80% that of a .50 round.

It's just a bullet people, a bullet thinner than your fingertips. And it weighs almost nothing.

[scarecrow398 43]

I seriously doubt that because money. The more advanced ammunition such as OTM or AP costs significantly more today than standard ammunition, and fielding such ammo in mass quantities would be economically unstable (assuming we don't find a magical way of producing ammo much at a fraction of the cost).

Ahem, let's sum this up with: 'Murica

7.62 and 5.56mm rounds designed to pierce the hull of a BTR/BRDM using a gilding metal jacketed tungsten carbide core (Keep in mind, M2 AP rounds used for testing current armor was designed in the 40's and uses hardened steel rather than the much denser Tungsten and the newer M993 rounds travel nearly 100 m/s faster), designed in 1992... and they're in current use, there's no purpose for them in current conflicts but they're kept in ammo stores, some have even made their way to Afghanistan.

At $1.44 a round (the standard 855 is $0.38 a round) they're pretty expensive but still kept en mass in storage.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Scarecrow398

[instagoat 133]

Ahem, let's sum this up with: 'Murica

7.62 and 5.56mm rounds designed to pierce the hull of a BTR/BRDM using a gilding metal jacketed tungsten carbide core (Keep in mind, M2 AP rounds used for testing current armor was designed in the 40's and uses hardened steel rather than the much denser Tungsten and the newer M993 rounds travel nearly 100 m/s faster), designed in 1992... and they're in current use, there's no purpose for them in current conflicts but they're kept in ammo stores, some have even made their way to Afghanistan.

At $1.44 a round (the standard 855 is $0.38 a round) they're pretty expensive but still kept en mass in storage.

Once vests and damage systems are in place, I would be completely in favor of adding extra types of ammunition, such as AP rounds for pistols and rifles or Soft-nosed pistol bullets. More diverse ammunition to deal with the increased armor protection of the characters will need to be added.

However, first we need vests, injury animations and improved medical system somewhere along the lines I have previously detailed, or at least in that direction.

[Gunter Severloh 3948]

Quote Originally Posted by ProGamer

I would like to see people being knocked down after being hit on their body armor.

And I would not , it's not realistic, the bullet doesn't have such power to drop a guy to the floor and it would look silly when everyone would drop to the ground from one hit

And I would not ;), it's not realistic, the bullet doesn't have such power to drop a guy to the floor and it would look silly when everyone would drop to the ground from one hit...

I beg to differ I quote myself from another thread:

As for getting hit in the chest i think based on the round type and im sure this was already mentioned that there should be some sort of knock back, or knockdown:

you guys remember this vid:

where the marine standing next to his humvee gets shot by a SVD sniper rifle, or a psl a 7.62x54mm round, gets knocked down and then gets back up, if bis can get the "body armor"

more like chest plate armor sorted out and add some realistic or a wounding/damage system then i think it will make the game more realistic and immersive in those respects..

Maybe not every bullet would knockdown a person, but I would highly suggest that certain rounds like the 7.62 at least depending what its shot from maybe?

that it have that capacity, Idk but I do know the realism aspect about the "body armor" is not where it should be in terms of a person taking damage from shots, 9 mm i can see nothing really happening other then a little bump like already seen by AI, 5mm on standard assault rifles a bit more, more like a stumble, maybe a possibility of a knockdown but we must take into consideration that the enemy AI are not always just standing still and in one place waiting for you to put a round into them.

7.62x54 penetration vids to demonstrate:

shooting through 1/2 inch steel (not the best quality vid)

Armor chest plate

All shots were taken at 25 yards.

Rounds used:

5.56 XM193

5.56 XM855

7.62x51 M80

7.62x54R Mild Steel Core

.270 130gr

.270 150gr

theres more videos out there that can demonstrate the velocity, and power of round types, if we are aiming to be realistic with body armor, we need to know what type of body armor, what areas are covered, then too what round types will do what to it. From what i understand in most cases the body armor is on the frontal chest, so everything else should have damage or take damage accordingly without having to take multiple shots to injure/kill a soldier.

[scarecrow398 43]

I beg to differ I quote myself from another thread:

Maybe not every bullet would knockdown a person, but I would highly suggest that certain rounds like the 7.62 at least depending what its shot from maybe?

that it have that capacity, Idk but I do know the realism aspect about the "body armor" is not where it should be in terms of a person taking damage from shots, 9 mm i can see nothing really happening other then a little bump like already seen by AI, 5mm on standard assault rifles a bit more, more like a stumble, maybe a possibility of a knockdown but we must take into consideration that the enemy AI are not always just standing still and in one place waiting for you to put a round into them.

From what I recall bullet's don't have enough mass to be able to knock someone over, it's more related to the bodys response in shock or people being thrown off balance while moving.

Statement from the soldier wearing this vest (SAPI plate which is level III equivalent)

[Cut down to save reading]

May 15, 2007. Foot patrol through a market when I was struck in the back by a sniper round. I blacked out from the impact and awoke to small arms fire and being dragged to cover.

...Back gives me problems if in the same position for a while. Standing, walking, running, or even sitting.

...7.62x39 from a Tabuk. I have fragments of the round that was dug out of the sappi plate, From what we later found out, this was an old Iraqi guard that had once fought the Iraqi Insurgency but had had turned.

[Gunter Severloh 3948]

From what I recall bullet's don't have enough mass to be able to knock someone over, it's more related to the

bodys response in shock or people being thrown off balance while moving.

Thanks Scarecrow398 for your insights and information, seems to make more sense, idk myself, only going by what seems to make

sense to me from some of the videos I have watched.

I do know from what i have seen and or demonstrated that there is enough velocity, to at least knockback a person where a plate, so there is some

sort of force of course depending on the type of round shot.

[rye1 21]

Injury animations would be fantastic. I'd love to see the A.I. limp away.

Thanks Scarecrow398 for your insights and information, seems to make more sense, idk myself, only going by what seems to make

sense to me from some of the videos I have watched.

I do know from what i have seen and or demonstrated that there is enough velocity, to at least knockback a person where a plate, so there is some

sort of force of course depending on the type of round shot.

Yes but where the line is drawn is when people believe that the velocity is the primary mechanism behind wounding, for example "knockdown power" which is a generally used term for a concept which is a medical myth or at least composed of many fallacies or misconceptions (quite like kinetic energy wounding mechanisms). Physical force is physical force, it can wound you - but it isn't a primary method behind wound ballistics and gunshot trauma. Sure, in flight you could get knocked down - to some degree it's like playing dodgeball, right?

[instagoat 133]

What knocks a person over is the physical-psychological shock of impact, not physical force. Knockdown power really is a function of how impressive being hit feels. It is as much psychological as physical, and psychological effects of impact become more important as the rounds get smaller. The reason why pistols use soft nosed or dum-dum rounds in civilian use is because that way they actually produce enough damage to quickly incapacitate a person.

All these things are too complicated to simulate in detail, but what should be simulated are the approximations. Somebody gets hit in the leg, they cannot use it anymore and start to limp. They get shot in both legs, they loose them and have to drag themselves by the arms. Somebody gets hit in the arm, they loose that arm or at least get severely impaired. Hits inside main bodymass should also do a lot to a person (instant max fatigue, knockdown of the person if hit was traumatic enough).

The details of wounding mechanics and kinetic energy transfer aren't relevant after the point where they stop to provide good approximations.

[spookygnu 563]

true what you are saying on the psychological aspect, if someone is shot by a silenced rifle or pistol, they will not react the same way they would to a round fire from an unsuppressed weapon.

They would more than likely hear the shot and then find out they have been hit, by either the impact of the bullet (which would make them flinch) or death if hit in the face.

[tpM 478]

^But in the case of most firearms used on the battlefield, the bullet reaches you before you can hear the weapon report.

[Tonci87 163]

A Bullet still does deliver enough kinetic energy to disrupt the body even if it hits the vest. I think you can compare it to a heavy punch in the guts or kidneys. You will go down from that, even if only for a short time.

[maturin 12]

If it's a heavy vest and a rated shot, it won't even hurt much, as seen in videos.

But even hard armor can have backplate deformation, and that can cause serious injury.

[scarecrow398 43]

Thanks Scarecrow398 for your insights and information, seems to make more sense, idk myself, only going by what seems to make

sense to me from some of the videos I have watched.

I do know from what i have seen and or demonstrated that there is enough velocity, to at least knockback a person where a plate, so there is some

sort of force of course depending on the type of round shot.

Oh, no argument on the energy or the veolcity, just that there isn't enough mass.

I figure Generally

would win out against a 0.008kg bullet... Though with that amount of gear on your body would collapse under the weight of your body/gear, be it from the surge of adrenaline, a change in blood pressure or such I have no idea.

Perhaps one of the more medical minded people in the thread could correct me/comment? *cough*Rye*cough*.

Edit: aaaand there's a whole other page I didn't see...

---------- Post added at 01:48 ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 ----------

A Bullet still does deliver enough kinetic energy to disrupt the body even if it hits the vest. I think you can compare it to a heavy punch in the guts or kidneys. You will go down from that, even if only for a short time.

As stated from someone having been shot by a .22 magnum round:

It was like having a M80 (large firework) go off in your shirt pocket

Others have also described pistol rounds feeling like a sledgehammer hitting them even when it's gone straight through

http://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/WhatItFeelsLikeToBeShot

If it's a heavy vest and a rated shot' date=' it won't even hurt much, as seen in videos.

But even hard armor can have backplate deformation, and that can cause serious injury.[/quote']

Uhh, I wouldn't say that, I think it's fair to assume it will be excrutiating... in about 20 minutes when the effects of the surge of adrenaline calm down... I've read recounts of soldiers being hit by shrapnel or bullets in non-vital areas only and then to walk off not wanting morphine only to collapse in pain shortly after.

Yeah, Like this plate which was only hit by 7.62mm rounds: http://www.bluesheepdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/AK-plate-backface.jpg

Which can leave injurys like this behind: http://www.policemag.com/_Images/articles/PO1101FREEWAY-2-2.jpg

Though recently to combat this the British army has started fitting their helmets and armor with

back facing, I suppose in the future soldiers may start buying inserts for their armor.

[rye1 21]

Yes it can disrupt the body so to speak, but that does not mean you will go down. There are a lot of variables that can be accounted for but they will create a formidable burden of scripts not worthy for the MP environment. For example it may be psychological in real life, everyone's heard of the story of the Spetsnaz soldier (in Chechnya I think) who was hit in the face by a fly and thought he had been shot. Or that shallow-wounding (fragmentation, ceramic) rounds with less wounding capacity and potential in fact do better at taking suspects down within the Law Enforcement environment once recognized by the suspect. But it's also just as physical, if you have momentum moving towards the target or you balanced or pushed (or leaning) against a countering object then you can stay up. I'm just saying I'd hate to be in a firefight and seeing everyone falling to the ground. :D Random is good in this way, but too many chance-systems just create circular gameplay.

be it from the surge of adrenaline, a change in blood pressure or such I have no idea.

Perhaps one of the more medical minded people in the thread could correct me/comment? *cough*Rye*cough*.

Yeah in every wound ballistics article I have read -- and there are many out there on the physiological effects of gunshot trauma -- the absolute ways to bring somebody down all involve Central Nervous System disruption. Direct trauma (tissue destruction) and lack of oxygen caused by blood or blood pressure loss (tissue asphyxia) are the two main branches. In any other case not involving CNS disruption you have a better outcome, for example you may still be combat effective (something that is hard to model anyhow). There are no scripts for this currently in vanilla ArmA, and over at the CMS team we have blood pressure and blood volume scripting but it's very hard to relate these to damage values and associated losses. It's certainly not easy to replicate this specific aspect in game, never mind "reality". Accounting or at least mimicking the physiological changes like hemorrhagic shock, adrenaline and noradrenaline release is POSSIBLE but not in a realistic way that is always replicated, and therefore not in a reliable way as in reality it depends on shapes, sizes and types of wounds and/or the bullets potential wounding mechanisms to be in play.

If you have read Mark Donaldson, VC's book yet Scarecrow he talks about being shot in the leg. It basically cemented itself between the femoral nerve and arteries (deep femoral, femoral) and he was that angry at being shot he just walked it off. The medic arrived later in the firefight and it was temporarily stitched and he carried on the firefight... until eventually being evacuated out hours later to get it checked up... It's very interpersonal and that is hard to replicate. They have done something similar for units though, for example in ACE2 didn't some units like Special Forces have better fatigue systems and so on?

I think the best way to start from BIS' perspective is to breakdown the reality and where they want to implement any 'realistic changes'. They'll soon find that most of it is impossible. Modifying the hit detection systems means repercussions online with scripting and feedback for example potential lag. Modifying the damage propagation system would require the hit detection system to be better handled, in my opinion, unless you 'quick-fix' the problem by adjusting damage values - but that's not a good work-around. Modifying types of ammunition would be a start tailoring it towards both soft-tissue and armor, example ball versus armor-piercing.

Sometimes people complain that those who get shot won't die - or go down - when they should. This is simply because there is no differentiation between instantaneous incapacitation within the hit detection and damage propagation systems. Basically the damage values has to be high enough to cause an instantaneous reaction and/or death. This usually means being hit directly by an overwhelming round with the associated damage value (i.e. a .50 cal or 30mm cannon). This is opposed to specific hit locations which propagate a reasonable damage assumption, i.e. the heart, the brain box and on top of that "combat effectiveness" features for example animations involving limping, reactions to being hit and basically a semi-random environment that makes sense linking in the fatigue systems and other systems in place.

TLDR: A lot of physiological things that are hard to replicate, there are only a few avenues of approach for BIS that make sense, imho, while still maintaining some amount of sense.

[tinemem 11]

currently, there's already a hit effect where the soldier recoils from a hit, but it's rather cartoony. it needs to last slightly longer and be a mo capped animation, preferably. because hitting a guy dead center, seeing him tip his rifle in the air for .0005 seconds, then without a single beat having past, nails me from 100 meters away just destroys any sense of immersion the game tries to build.

[Redfield-77 10]

While its true that Body Armor of 2035 would be superior to todays I would like to bring up a few points.

First, half the community hates the 2035 setting and Arma has always been about realistic damage and unforgiving Fire fights.

Second, The historical Arms race usually favors the weapons of the day over the armor of the day. in 2035 they could have tungsten penetrators in 5.56 flavor to effectively negate body armor.

Third, regardless of any arguments posted in any of these threads over the effectiveness of body armor no one can dispute that a 10 meter shot, to an unarmored person, center mass, with an assault rifle will put them down. However In arma a 5.56 point blank to a bare chest doesnt kill.