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Soldier protection (dev branch)

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Yeah well try it again anyhow. I know I had the same thing happen to me when I started testing armour a while back. The first time I tried it I was all like "wow this works really well". but then after more testing I began to find out that it wasn't so much the case.

But there isn't that much detail in arma at the moment. In reality armoured plates are quite small and cover about 40-50% of the upper body (waist up) at most. In arma however the plate cover 100% of the upper body. This means that people will not be in "serious trouble" if hit in certain locations.

I seriously doubt the devs are going to add more hitzones to combat that problem at this point (though I would be pleased if they did).

So keeping that in mind, it probably isn't such a horrible thing to have damage build up for the reasons similar to this:

Furthermore there are reasons why "dampened but culminating damage from nonpenetrating hits" is realistic, ie.:

  • After repeated hits to a plate the integrety of the plate decreases - multiple hits leads to eventual penetration. In game multiple hits would lead to death.
  • Though a non penetrating hit won't tear up tissue, it can still cause damage. Bruising and pain are definitely going to happen and more serious internal bleeding and broken bones are possibilities as well (though not for smaller munitions). The way damage culminates in game can represent this to a degree.

So although there is merit to the "it penetrates and kills or deflects and does nothing" train of thought, its not 100% true. There is also realistic enough reasons for "dampened culminating damage". And I think that in the end the devs are not going to have much choice but to use it. So might as well start discussing how we can get the most realistic results out of that system. I believe it is very possible.

Yeah testing came out the same as yours must have had a freak glancing hit.

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dev.

With a .45 yeah, one shot kill to the face and to the helmet. Multiple glancing hits to kill.

With a 9mm no, two shot kill to the face and two shot kill to the helmet. Multiple glancing hits to kill.

What I am seeing is the helmet protects the whole of the head, but the .45 is simply strong enough to punch trough that protection regardless. The lack of difference between the 9mm to the face and 9mm to the helmet indicates that the helmet protects the whole head.

Do you get the same results as in this video?

Yep, that's about it. It's due to cases where 9mm cannot penetrate helmets and in extreme cases wouldn't drop people from a headshot that double-tapping was starting to get popular way back when for the smaller calibers.

Bring out the inner-SAS in you and you'll excel.

Eh, I am really hating this new patch. It's turned PvP into more spray&pray than tactical shooting now, especially with everyone sprinting around still and the lag issues. Plus I'm crashing once an hour now. I might just leave off for a few weeks until they fix it (hopefully) in the next patch. I've been meaning to go back to America's Army 2.5 (personal gold standard for tactical play) for a while now. Guess it's time :/

Yeah, I must admit that sometimes coming back to Arma after a few months really does help. On a side note, you should really see the amount of lead people (especially HSLD operators) tend to pump into the enemy in real life. Dead? Alive? Somewhere in between? BANGBANGBANGBANG!

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Any chance to see the jerking/twitching remove (or improved greatly) - they look really bad and with units now able to take more hits, it becomes way more visible.

Also wouldn't it make more sense to solve some of the engine issues first before doing the tweaking?

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8047

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=16460 and all the other hitPart/HD issues at related

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=16115

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=16136

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In the real world, people usually fall down when shot. Not because of the force of impact... just because that's the typical human reaction to getting shot.

I agree with your thoughts on a chance system as if you want to replicate reality there is no one hundred percent rule. For example some people who do get shot, especially in non-vital anatomical locations, can continue on, to the point of not realizing there was an impact. Therefore I would like some lee-way otherwise I would be seeing everyone 'fall' and drop at each shot, and that would annoy me. Because you cannot replicate psychological, physiological or wound ballistics factors completely within a game, there has to be a compromise. A chance system is a great compromise is both answers are valid. As combat ineffectiveness is very hard to replicate, both for A.I. and players, then we have to look at alternatives that are based on fact but applied to the game in my opinion, and my opinion only.

Within this I would like to see an increased focus around complementary features. Limping, force of impact fall and other related animations would make combat variable, rather than static.

Is there any way that we can get the plates (front and back, or "both" as a single item, whatever) as a separate item from the plate carrier itself, or would that also require a revision of the carrying capacity mechanics for the vest slot?

I would indeed like to see such an implementation. That would require hit detection and damage propagation to be well re-designed and tweaked, giving variables as you mentioned before to hit location in more acceptable manner. As Coulumn mentioned, "the problems occur within each hitpoint - for example the helmet protects the whole of the head, not just the top". It seems like many latent errors adding up to a whole problem, an actual problem that needs broken down.

After repeated hits to a plate the integrity of the plate decreases - multiple hits leads to eventual penetration. In game multiple hits would lead to death.

If you survived would this mean reacquiring a new plate? If so, refer back to Chortles previous suggestion that plates are carriable items, accessible to use, in my opinion similar to optics on weapons as we have currently.

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Everyone who's posting 'data' without telling what UNIT and ARMOR you're actually shooting at, please get your act together...

I absolutely don't care who (how many enemy soldiers) shoot those shots to be honest. All I care is that without TPW I get killed more often on the spot than with "automatictakecovermechanismbyTPW". A truth. Period.

So are you saying this is a problem, or not? Because you could always just go prone when you take hits and get the same result.

I agree with your thoughts on a chance system as if you want to replicate reality there is no one hundred percent rule. For example some people who do get shot, especially in non-vital anatomical locations, can continue on, to the point of not realizing there was an impact. Therefore I would like some lee-way otherwise I would be seeing everyone 'fall' and drop at each shot, and that would annoy me. Because you cannot replicate psychological, physiological or wound ballistics factors completely within a game, there has to be a compromise. A chance system is a great compromise is both answers are valid. As combat ineffectiveness is very hard to replicate, both for A.I. and players, then we have to look at alternatives that are based on fact but applied to the game in my opinion, and my opinion only.

That's what I've said from the start.

We also need proof of this accusation that the helmet protects the whole head. If it does, why can I one-hit kill people by hitting them in the face with 9mm?

The fire geometry is riddled with holes, relating to the tickets posted earlier. Hands and groin areas are completely ethereal and let bullets pass harmlessly through. These should all be pressing issues. But once everything is sorted out, don't we want a high degree of randomness at the end of the day? Body armor doesn't always work as advertised. Bullets can cause either catastrophic or slight injury by chance, even when hitting the same exact spot with the same velocity. I'd want a RPG-style 5-20 damage diceroll, after all considerations of velocity, hit location and body armor are taken into account.

Edited by maturin

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If we have a system of hit points ... output one. Add a lot of effects on hit bullets. These effects should stop wounded continue to fight for a some time. These effects should limit its possibilities.

Example: falling, stumbling, loss of consciousness, pain shock (visually), tinnitus, disorientation, decreased mobility (wounded in the leg).

But all this - the crutches. This half-measures. Need to radically change the system injuries (zone) and body armor system (denial of hitpoints in its present form). 9mm pistol bullet - should not penetrate heavy body armor. Even if the bullets are 20. This is implemented (?) In VTN.

Example: bullet flies through the head in a helmet, and man - alive!? Armor should stop certain types of bullets by 100%. Man - does not get loss hits the body (but there is painful effects, etc.). Let armor has hit points. Loss of 70% armor hitpoints - bullets penetrate and cause damage to the human body.

The total area of ​​thorax / back should be reduced.

Of course, the developers have to bring in real experts and scientific literature. Materials - enough.

Edited by Kirill

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What needs to go is the mathematical modifiers. Bodyarmor is not some sort of dice-rolling shield that covers the whole body. I´ve made a map explaining my previously uploaded layout for the RVMAT bullet penetration + ballistics simulation based here:http: //i.imgur.com/pC4UaCHl.jpg

The RVMATS are placed so that they only are where actual ballistic plates would be. Consequently, mathematical modifiers become unnecessary, and vests can be much easier graded by protection levels according to the size and distribution of the various materials. Further, various stock RVMATs to simulate different types of bodyarmor material (ceramics, steel, kevlar, nylon, etc) would help to allow people to build vests as close to real world specs as possible.

Infantry bodyarmor is the key factor missing, aside from detail injury animations, from the core of arma 3: infantry combat.

Edited by InstaGoat

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The fire geometry is riddled with holes, relating to the tickets posted earlier. Hands and groin areas are completely ethereal and let bullets pass harmlessly through.

Exactly. Damage is often propagated along the whole mass, that isn't a good work-around. Non-vital areas should remain so. We already have bleeding implemented so those injuries would become vital over time if they weren't treated.

I'd think also a benefit or work-around that might be a fix would be as I've said before multitudes of types of ammunition. Armor-piercing can be tailored to do just that. Just a few thoughts, but I see half of the people in this thread are way ahead of me so I'll try to spectate for now. :cool:

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Since when do we have bleeding implemented?

Absent a detailed wounding simulation with incapacitation and unconsciousness (that is not going to ever come to vanilla), units SHOULD die after a bunch of shots to the legs. You would be combat ineffective, wracked by pain, and bleeding to death.

Armor-piercing can be tailored to do just that.

Everyone is already going to be using armor-piercing ammo. The most we'd see is some slightly-upgraded rounds for special forces. And equipping guerilla forces with junk ammo isn't really going to add that much the realism while causing gameplay problems.

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What needs to go is the mathematical modifiers. Bodyarmor is not some sort of dice-rolling shield that covers the whole body. I´ve made a map explaining my previously uploaded layout for the RVMAT bullet penetration + ballistics simulation based here:http: //i.imgur.com/pC4UaCHl.jpg

The RVMATS are placed so that they only are where actual ballistic plates would be. Consequently, mathematical modifiers become unnecessary, and vests can be much easier graded by protection levels according to the size and distribution of the various materials. Further, various stock RVMATs to simulate different types of bodyarmor material (ceramics, steel, kevlar, nylon, etc) would help to allow people to build vests as close to real world specs as possible.

Infantry bodyarmor is the key factor missing, aside from detail injury animations, from the core of arma 3: infantry combat.

That was what I was asking in another thread I think. If the actual vests could somehow make use of the material penetration system, which I guess is what RVMAT's are? This way Velocity, range, everything plays a role and it's not some weird damage reduction type system we are seeing right now.

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That was what I was asking in another thread I think. If the actual vests could somehow make use of the material penetration system, which I guess is what RVMAT's are? This way Velocity, range, everything plays a role and it's not some weird damage reduction type system we are seeing right now.

Yeh, the RVMATs define the material type the penetration system uses. They basically tell the engine what kind of surface has what kind of material behind it and calculate the penetration behaviour accordingly. With more sophisticated hit modelling (knockback and knockdown), this would go long ways to improving infantry damage behaviour. However, I am completely against a super advanced medical system. Maybe a superficial shock simulation, and more advanced, damaged-area based animations (limping when hit in the leg, incabability to hold up weapon for long when hit in the arm, generally heavily impaired performance when hit in the groin, etc), but area based bleedout, unconsciousness, inability to stand or walk, or anything that takes gameplay away from the player is too much and should be reserved for niche mods that desire such gameplay breaking "realistic" models for their own purposes.

However, even improved knockback AND improved damage response and handling on the body itself AND properly simulated vests would already make the gameplay much more interesting.

Center mass shots would not guarantee kills, and trying to kill somebody through their vest with a pistol would not work at all.

Further, damage to limbs with pistol caliber weapons should never be an immediate kill: This is why we -need- damaged-area based animations. People do not immediately die when shot with a 9mm in the leg. However, they will be in a lot of pain, and will have difficulty moving. Increase fatigue, add limping animation and prevent sprinting: done. That way, pistols would really be a last ditch weapon and more effective against unprotected target areas, ie, you need to aim. Right now, you can shoot somebody in the foot ten times and they will die: in real life, the foot will be gone, but the person will be perfectly capable of fighting back and surviving all the time (unless the foot gets badly infected, which does not matter ingame.).

So, really.

Injury animations.

Infantry Bodyarmor.

The rest is icing on the cake. Those two things above, in my mind, are absolutely necessary. Right now, wearing armour feels like cheating, because it is a general, mathematical modifier. That works for a crysis style bodysuit. Not for a plate carrier that just covers chest and stomach.

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So are you saying this is a problem, or not? Because you could always just go prone when you take hits and get the same result.

Maturin, all I say is TPW made taking cover automatic for players which is, for me personally, much easier than to go prone with some delay (reflexes) after I noticed I got hit. It saved my in-game life many times because TPW fall is instant while my reactions can take couple of seconds some time.

I also say that there definitely needs to be more penalization for getting hit both for players and AI. I am just not sure what should be implemented in order to achieve this. Active ragdoll is, I suppose, out of question for BIS. So some kind of randomized stumbling animation or a huge aiming and fatigue penalization may be a solution. But I don't really know. I just don't want to see that same single and slow (and elegant) animation of units falling down again and again after each hit. It looks stupid with multiple hits.

Call of Duty series (keep it calm guys!) has good animations for AI when they got hit. Something like that would be quite good.

PS: have you seen that reality video where cops are trying to shoot those robbers covered in armor while they are just walking calmly and shooting back at police?

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Quick note for clarity's sake: I suggested a change in the carrying capacity mechanic because my idea for separate plates implementation is that the plates should count towards the player's carried weight (and in particular the weight on/in the plate carrier) but not the carrying capacity of the plate carrier in the Vest slot; under the current carrying capacity rules it would be a zero-sum equation between the plates and magazines. (As far as which plates would be implemented, a single "Plates" item with the assumption of both front and back plates would suffice... I haven't given too much thought to side plates, or groin and neck protection though.)

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area based bleedout, unconsciousness, inability to stand or walk, or anything that takes gameplay away from the player is too much and should be reserved for niche mods that desire such gameplay breaking "realistic" models for their own purposes.

That would not be game breaking, mods and missions could disable it. Leaving it completely for mods is not a solution. They are not really "niche" mods either. They just do what BI wants to do but are held back by AI problems. How does it take gameplay away from the player? Because he can't run around like a super soldier? Since when is this the new ideology? This kind of thinking is a complete downgrade from Arma 2. Players have wanted stuff like this in Arma for a very long time and it would suck for BI to make it arcade like or say they think gameplay is way more important than realism. Good gameplay for a game like Arma comes with realism. It isn't COD or BF and shouldn't play like those games. People buy Arma expecting realism and not arcade gameplay.

You should not fight against an advanced medical system. Just fight for the ability to disable it completely or disable parts of it like VBS did. It is incredibly stupid to fight against something a large portion of the community have wanted for a very long time. It makes combat not some stupid arcade skill contest.

I'd say it adds to the gameplay. And isn't the boring and unrealistic twitch shooter like combat we are currently stuck with.

---------- Post added at 01:16 ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 ----------

No body said all these aspects would be forced onto the player. Like VBS you could completely disable aspects of it.

---------- Post added at 01:19 ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 ----------

The problem is a lot of this needs BI to get to work on that advanced and complicated medical system. We should create the body armor with this in mind that it is coming, mods can use it and is better than some arcade stuff.

Edited by ProGamer

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ProGamer, unfortunately 'advanced medical mods' are niche items. I'm apart of the Combat Medical System development team and I have promoted the mod to numerous communities and clans - some want it, some really do not. Some see scroll, revive as the golden standard, others see very simple work-arounds like ACE2 had for the golden standard, so you would have to define 'advanced medical' systems that would be implemented in vanilla. What would the main features display? How would it work? Do the community actually want those suggestions or something more... or something less?

Since when do we have bleeding implemented?

Absent a detailed wounding simulation with incapacitation and unconsciousness (that is not going to ever come to vanilla), units SHOULD die after a bunch of shots to the legs. You would be combat ineffective, wracked by pain, and bleeding to death.

Everyone is already going to be using armor-piercing ammo. The most we'd see is some slightly-upgraded rounds for special forces. And equipping guerilla forces with junk ammo isn't really going to add that much the realism while causing gameplay problems.

I thought bleeding was implemented? When you're hit, it flashes red and you have to heal. I don't know, I haven't played with the variables, but it's not a hard implementation none the less. If a revamp of any damage system was taken into account then bleeding would be the first go-to feature I could think of.

Really? I thought the standard 6.5mm round used in ArmA 3 would just be the standard ball. Armor-piercing would make sense in being able to penetrate the said body armor systems, especially in a total war scenario against Iran. Factually AP versus soft tissue is useless, creating through-and-throughs. AP versus armor, fantastic dependent on the type and class of armor, and once it penetrates it has good wounding potential. So that wouldn't be much of a problem replicated in game simply based off a different type of ammunition used [in a different magazine i.e. 6.5mm AP versus 6.5mm Standard].

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ProGamer, unfortunately 'advanced medical mods' are niche items. I'm apart of the Combat Medical System development team and I have promoted the mod to numerous communities and clans - some want it, some really do not. Some see scroll, revive as the golden standard, others see very simple work-arounds like ACE2 had for the golden standard, so you would have to define 'advanced medical' systems that would be implemented in vanilla. What would the main features display? How would it work? Do the community actually want those suggestions or something more... or something less?

I said it could have feature enabled/disabled. It would add so much to gameplay with a realistic medical system. There would spine so much more to move here shoot this and shrug off bullets then go here and repeat super soldier damage levels.

---------- Post added at 06:21 ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 ----------

This is unrelated to a discussion on a medical system and more so on what this threads intended topic was.

At 1:05 in this video, we see a soldier get knocked over by a bullet then stand back up because of the body armor he was wearing.

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So define what you mean by realistic medical system? What kind of features do you mean?

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A distance damage modifier would be nice. I understand that dynamic velocities that change over a certain distance doesn't exist but it would solve the issue with effectiveness on pentration of armor.. ie.. within 100m a 7.62 goes straight through.. for the games sake not realism and maybe a chance roll for a full absorption of the hit. My two cents.

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A distance damage modifier would be nice. I understand that dynamic velocities that change over a certain distance doesn't exist but it would solve the issue with effectiveness on pentration of armor.. ie.. within 100m a 7.62 goes straight through.. for the games sake not realism and maybe a chance roll for a full absorption of the hit. My two cents.

That's why I hope they go with the approach like InstaGoat put forth with the penetration materials and it actually affecting the projectile, rather than some sort of math based damage reduction system.

Velocity does change over distance, the bullets do lose speed in game. Getting shot from 400m and 100m generates completely different damage outputs. As it is now, it's simply a case of reduced damage where as with a proper system, the armor would actually stop the round possibly and with a proper wounding or reaction system, he would then most likely fall or be knocked down. Being able to transition from normal state to ragdoll state and then back would be an immense help in creating a system such as that, or having some sort of knockdown/fall animations.

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Everyone who's posting 'data' without telling what UNIT and ARMOR you're actually shooting at, please get your act together...
Believe my table includes the armor names and I've mentioned they're BLUFOR. For the record, they're BLUFOR (I am unaware of different sides having different health values - is this the case?).
I'd say it adds to the gameplay. And isn't the boring and unrealistic twitch shooter like combat we are currently stuck with.
Yeah, it'd be nice to have a more thorough medical system that can be activated by modules, as in A2. People who want to play arcadey just don't activate those modules.
A distance damage modifier would be nice. I understand that dynamic velocities that change over a certain distance doesn't exist but it would solve the issue with effectiveness on pentration of armor.. ie.. within 100m a 7.62 goes straight through.. for the games sake not realism and maybe a chance roll for a full absorption of the hit. My two cents.
Don't we already have this? Shots lose their speed/penetration with distance.

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Believe my table includes the armor names and I've mentioned they're BLUFOR. For the record, they're BLUFOR (I am unaware of different sides having different health values - is this the case?).

Not afaik. All captain underpants characters die to a 9mm to the chest so if they do have different health is doesn't seem to matter a lot until we figure out how the stacking damage blocking gear modifiers work. Clothes can have armor values too though. CSAT fatigues in particular. But you already knew that.

Don't we already have this? Shots lose their speed/penetration with distance.

Yup. That's exactly what happens and makes a lot of sense.

I don't particularly care for an advanced medical system, just that landing a hit or getting shot should have more feedback and consequence other than just a quick jerk. The only satisfying ones to me right now are the 12.7/.50 as those pretty much kill outright. The self-applied one FAK fits all system is a pretty big stretch for severe trauma.

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CSAT fatigues and coveralls have a (very, very, very...) slight increase to protection, so you *might* survive more than a single 9mm shot center mass.

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CSAT fatigues and coveralls have a (very, very, very...) slight increase to protection, so you *might* survive more than a single 9mm shot center mass.

I wouldn't say slight as its the difference between taking 1 5.56 or 4.

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CSAT fatigues and coveralls have a (very, very, very...) slight increase to protection, so you *might* survive more than a single 9mm shot center mass.

Nope. It's actually (probably) a completely different design philosophy.

The fatigues are the only body armor available to CSAT. They (currently?) don't have vest type armor like the AAF or NATO plate carriers. It's one of those asymmetrical things that's pretty neat. It even looks like it's more "armored" than regular nato/aaf fatigues so it's not really a problem to me. I noticed and mentioned it before the dev branch armor changes went into limbo. The current system is a continuation of it with logical changes to the csat vests and other bits and pieces that were mentioned in the change log (previously the csat officer clothing was just as bulletproof as the fatigues, and bandoliers/LBV were too high on the armor scale).

Typically:

CSAT = High armor "clothing" + low armor vest

NATO = Low armor clothing + high armor vest

It's probably also why wasteland players et al get confused with opfor being op bulletsponges to stock 9mm sidearms etc.

Edited by L3TUC3

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Nope. It's actually (probably) a completely different design philosophy.

The fatigues are the only body armor available to CSAT. They don't have vest type armor like the AAF or NATO plate carriers. It's one of those asymmetrical things that's pretty neat. It even looks like it's more "armored" than regular nato/aaf fatigues so it's not really a problem to me. I noticed and mentioned it before the dev branch armor changes went into limbo. The current system is a continuation of it with logical changes to the csat vests and other bits and pieces that were mentioned in the change log (previously the csat officer clothing was just as bulletproof as the fatigues, and bandoliers/LBV were too high on the armor scale).

Typically:

CSAT = High armor "clothing" + low armor vest

NATO = Low armor clothing + high armor vest

It's probably also why wasteland players et al get confused with opfor being op bulletsponges to stock 9mm sidearms etc.

Is it even realistic to have a body armor suit? Seems like some unrealistic balancing attempt.

Edited by ProGamer

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